Fukushima is super terrific, just ask the gaijin

[Yokohammer]

Radioactive or not, the widespread perception of Fuckushima is that it's a dangerous place to be. Whether that's a correct perception is irrelevant. It's undeniably the perception of many, who will avoid the place. Those in authority saying Fuckushima is safe may well be right, but their credibility is so damaged by all their lying, incompetency and concealment that few believe them even when they are speaking the truth.

People also tend to forget that before the disasters Fuckushima was a depressed, rusting, struggling shithole that few people wanted to visit.

I'm a little surprised by this. I agree that the perception is as you say, and that bureaucratic deception has not helped in the least, but the idea that "Fukushima is ... etc." is just so obviously wrong that it makes me wonder if people are even bothering to look at maps.

First of all, are you talking about Fukushima city, or Fukushima prefecture?

Lets take a look at a map that I have added a couple of details to:

fukushima-det.jpg

Right ... so there's Fukushima prefecture. Big place!
I have placed a red dot at the approximate location of the nuclear power plant, on the coast, and shaded Fukushima city in yellow.

That big blue splotch in the middle of Fukushima prefecture is Lake Inawashiro, near to the Aizu area and Mount Bandai. That whole area is far from being a "depressed, rusting, struggling shithole that few people wanted to visit." It is a beautiful area, and a popular tourist spot.

Actually, Fukushima city isn't bad either.

Anyway, while we're here and I've taken the time to make some toys, lets play a little game.

Here's a slightly bigger perspective:

fukushima_map.gif

That's a pretty large prefecture we have there.
Now let's rotate Fukushima towards Tokyo, using the approximate location of the nuke plant as a pivot point (rotated Fukushima in orange):

fuku_rotate2.jpg

Holy shit! That thing reaches way into the Kanto area (which I have roughly outlined in red), and almost all the way to Tokyo! EVERYBODY RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!!

If I had rotated Fukushima around the intersection of its southern border and the coastline it would be touching Tokyo.

It really doesn't take much imagination to understand this without the graphics, and it stuns me that people who are ostensibly concerned don't even bother. The same goes for the radiation levels, etc.

Anyway, that's enough "work" for me for one day.

[canman]

Sorry to highjack this thread, but it wasn't until 'Hammer posted this picture of Fukushima prefecture outlined that i noticed it resembled Australia!
Anyway, my two cents on this, and I might be completely wrong, but is there any kind of a comparison to what happened when AIDS first appeared With so little information, people went running scared, not wanting to touch or sit in the same room with those stricken. It was only years later that we learned that AIDS while still deadly was far less of a threat than we first assumed, and after a long time people's sensibilities kicked in.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Anyway, that's enough "work" for me for one day.

I gladly concede being wrong and humbly stand corrected. Otsukaresama desu.

[omae mona]

Radioactive or not, the widespread perception of Fuckushima is that it's a dangerous place to be. Whether that's a correct perception is irrelevant. It's undeniably the perception of many, who will avoid the place.

I think SDH is absoutely right about this. It's absolutely 100% classic psychology textbook material. The vast majority of people substitute the actual relevant question ("am I in a place that is elevating my cancer risk in any meaningful way") with a simpler question that is easier for the brain to process ("am I in a place called 'Fukushima'"), even though they only peripherally related, at best. The brain is lazy and does this kind of substitution all the time.

Drive somebody 50 km to the north of the Daiichi reactor, in Miyagi prefecture, and they won't bat an eyelid. Drive them over the border into southwestern Fukushima prefecture 150km southwest of the Daiichi reactor, and you'll see their heart rate go up, they'll start sweating, and they might even try to grab the steering wheel away from you or jump out of the car. When our survival instincts kick in, triggered by the hot button word "radiation", then radiation becomes this magic evil invisible dust that kills you and fits into this neat border in an area called "Fukushima".

It's human nature. The world works this way and we live with it. What bothers me is that in this case the effect is worse than usual, because hucksters like Coligny have been all over the internet trying to make the simple question "am I safe" more complicated via conspiracy theories.

Those in authority saying Fuckushima is safe may well be right, but their credibility is so damaged by all their lying, incompetency and concealment that few believe them even when they are speaking the truth.

SDH, on this I have to challenge you. It seems to be the general consensus in many circles, but I still feel it's been greatly exaggerated for the last two years. Most of the claims I have seen come from people who started at the premise that there *must* be dangerous radiation in many places causing illness, so when the government and TEPCO do not corroborate that, they *must* be lying and concealing, or at best incompetent. It's always seemed like circular logic to me. Can you give some examples of where the lying, incompentency, and concealment took place?

FYI I'm not saying there were no lies, incompetence, or concealment anywhere. There certainly were some of each. I am just saying I am not convinced they were of any meaningful substance regarding public health, nor am I convinced they were plentiful. I think the loss of confidence was mainly due to really poor communication from the government, and secondarily due to people like Coligny spreading fear over the Internets. Not due to actual lies, incompetence, or concealment. I'd be very happy to be proven wrong with examples of meaningful cases.

BTW there was a nice commentary in the Japan Times about this just the other day. Fukushima: evolving fear into factCredentials:

David Roberts is former science adviser to the U.S. ambassador to Japan. Ted Lazo is deputy division head for radiation protection at the OECD Nuclear Energy Agency.

These guys are a bit more knowledgable than Coligny.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Sorry to highjack this thread, but it wasn't until 'Hammer posted this picture of Fukushima prefecture outlined that i noticed it resembled Australia!

Can I have some of whatever you're on?

It was only years later that we learned that AIDS while still deadly was far less of a threat than we first assumed, and after a long time people's sensibilities kicked in.

Maybe the tens of millions of Africans who die annually through the disease might have a slightly different opinion, but there is definitely an incorrect perception of Fuckushima and accompanying prejudice that (I displayed above) and also reminds me of the initial responses to AIDS in the West in the 1980s and 1990s.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Can you give some examples of where the lying, incompentency, and concealment took place?

Changing the safety levels, refusing to admit a meltdown had occurred and dumping seawater into the ocean are things that immediately come to mind, as does the collusion to suppress the anti-nuclear movement, which at one stage was gathering tens of thousands of protestors on a weekly basis.

It's not just the government doing this...I'd extend further and say the Establishment because the 21st century is all about being inclusive....

But you were absolutely spot-on in your (admirably eloquent) summation of the psychological effects at work in Fuckushima. I'm guilty of behaving exactly as you said and even being corrected in a clear and precise manner such as Hammer has done above is still not going to change my mind. And this is coming from someone who couldn't give a fuck about radiation, public health, or even my own health, safety and the like. Soccer mums who won't let diddums play outside without a bike helmet or visibility vest -- and we live in a cuntry/First World overflowing with such types -- are not gonna go within boo of Fuckushima. The psychological barrier is, as you've pointed out omae mona, enormous. Perhaps eventually perpetually impenetrable.

[wagyl]

I have made a careful assessment of the risks to my health, and have determined that it is best if I limit my reading of Coligny posts to once per day, so this will become a slow motion conversation, but anyway....

We have now established that Toyohashi has been decided by a resident to be not sufficient risk to evacuate.

I had planned to do one question at a time , but I don't think I can sustain my interest over the fortnight it would take at my renewed schedule, so here they are in a bunch:

• Is it safe for that resident to travel to Tokyo, in view of increased radiation? Or is that taking an unnecessary risk?
• Is it safe to decide to eat that banana, in view of increased radiation? Or is that taking an unnecessary risk?
• Is it safe to eat that handful of brazil nuts at Christmas, in view of increased radiation (extra points for ingestion of radium!!!)? Or is that taking an unnecessary risk?
• Is it safe to take a return flight to California, in view of increased radiation? Or is that taking an unnecessary risk?
• Is it reasonable to visit the Capitol building in DC, in view of increased radiation? Or is that taking an unnecessary risk?
• Is there ever a reason which justifies going there?
• Is it safe to have a holiday with your dog in a cute cottage (for a strictly limited subset of 'cute'), in view of increased risk of infection by hydatid worms from the dogshit radiation? Or is that taking an unnecessary risk?
• Special bonus question: All the rain and snowmelt from Fukushima's Aizu region empties via the Agano River through Niigata City to the Japan Sea. Is it safe to go to Niigata City, in view of increased radiation? Or is that taking an unnecessary risk?

These are the questions we should be asking. Because we sure as hell can't right past wrongs or even force TEPCO officials never to conceal unfortunate information in the future.
So (a) we can worry about stuff we can't control, those past wrongs and TEPCO's future actions; or (b) we can make our decisions about our own actions balanced against the risk those actions expose us to. Nice if we can do that without the emotions of (a), emotions we have nurtured for two years and counting, maintaining the rage, yes, nice if we can do that without the emotions of (a) colouring the decisions of (b).

[matsuki]

Radioactive or not, the widespread perception of Fuckushima is that it's a dangerous place to be. Whether that's a correct perception is irrelevant. It's undeniably the perception of many, who will avoid the place. Those in authority saying Fuckushima is safe may well be right, but their credibility is so damaged by all their lying, incompetency and concealment that few believe them even when they are speaking the truth.

This is basically what I've been trying to say but SDH put it much more eloquently.

In typical Japanese fashion, the gov turned down experienced and prepared cleanup units in favor of the local construction companies with no experience who are basically just pressure washing, burying, and trying to sweep away the contamination. Having seen about 3 documentaries about how much of this effort is ineffective and on hold in many areas, it's not exactly confidence inspiring. Compound that with all the other unknowns about exposure to the radiation and can you really blame people for now wanting to go anywhere near that part of the cuntry?

I get Yoko's point about labeling the entire prefecture as "a radioactive wasteland" but when all you hear is Fukushima (even with all it's size) you know it's in the general direction and I am just saying that personally, I wouldn't choose to vacation any closer to the disaster than I had to...for the reasons above. Beyond that, my immediate thoughts when I heard the lemur brought her dog, was the dog lapping up some radioactive water or chewing on some radioactive debris. If it was that Regina Forrest place she went to, I agree that as far out as it is, the air and such isn't a big deal and I don't think I'm going to get cancer by walking down the streets there for a week...but it seems pretty logical that the closer you get to the disaster site (one that is still emitting radioactive material 2+years later) the more likely you'll be exposed to hot spots where the shit has collected....be it AC units, around storm drains, shrubs, trees, etc.

[Coligny]

BTW there was a nice commentary in the Japan Times about this just the other day. Fukushima: evolving fear into factCredentials:

David Roberts is former science adviser to the U.S. ambassador to Japan. Ted Lazo is deputy division head for radiation protection at the OECD Nuclear Energy Agency.

These guys are a bit more knowledgable than Coligny.

Yea, pointing out that response to protect surrounding population for this incident has been smaller than if it was a fire from a refinerie or discovery of a WWII unexploded bomb is really spreading fear and shit.

Meanwhile quoting diplomats who are trained professionnal liars-ass kissers is gospel... I bet you 1 week of cheeseburger money that if I give him a bag filled with enough green bill he'll come out tomorow saying your mother poontang smell like strawberry icecream.

It's all about method and protocol to protect population against industrial accident, COULD YOU PUT THIS IN YOUR FUCKING HEAD ?
The same way you say "ermargerd people phear because they can see it", you exploit it with "you can't see it, so it's not there, and if you get sick i'll blame something else"

I feel like fucking Jane Goodall amoung chimps...


STOP HAVING A HARD ON BELIEVING I'M SCARED AND SPREADING FEAR... ok, at your age it's cheaper than viagra, but it change nothing to the fact that observing total incompetence from peopel supposed to manage a crisis is not "fear and panic" It's a constatation, based on previous event and how they went on, good part and bad part. As far as I am concerned I don't give a flying fuck if a volcano decide to erupt under the plant and spread shit up to Vladivostock. What I can't stand is imbecile that either qualify the response to the current even as proper or the risk (for people who mike actually want not to be affected to much) as being ridiculously low.

Which is why we were all feverishly engaged in learning the basics of this in March 2011. And working from that basic knowledge, we should know that there is no such thing as zero radiation anywhere. I fully understand wanting to avoid unnecessary increased risks, but that should be put into perspective against the risks of that return flight across the Pacific, or that banana for breakfast, or that handful of brazil nuts (my God, he is eating it!), never mind the uranium content of the granite in the Capitol building in Washington DC.

And seriously, in 2013, still going for the banana schtick against the pollution from Daichi is pathetic...

[Coligny]

We have now established that Toyohashi has been decided by a resident to be not sufficient risk to evacuate.

If you had more gray matter than fecal matter in your cranium you'd notice I never said that but listed the reading that my GM counters give me depending on the wind direction.

I don't say run for the hill all will kill you, I say. YOU DON'T MANAGE AN ACCIDENT WITH SO MUCH POTENTIAL FOR HUGE CONSEQUENCE IN THE FUTUR WITH THAT MUCH IRRESPONSABILITY, FUELING THE RETHORIC OF ALL THE DERPER POSTING AROUND...

For the braziliun times, in case of public health, the rule in civilised countries is IF YOU ARE NOT SURE, BE SAFE. Not the current state of derp floating around "since it didn't kill me yet, it's ok, i'm much smarter than all the others, that i will call panicky idiots because it makes me feel even smareterest" I wonder how, with that kind of logic you manage to survive this old.

CAREFULL IS NOT FEARFULL...

And yes, carefull cost money, carefull create burden, while just not giving a fuck is sooo much easier...

[wagyl]

OK, time for my daily dose.

Does it says 'ermargerd must evacuamated Toyohashi" ?
No

We have now established that Toyohashi has been decided by a resident to be not sufficient risk to evacuate.

If you had more gray matter than fecal matter in your cranium you'd notice I never said that.

I learned a lot today. I will be applying that knowledge forthwith. Either he doesn't know what he was doing the previous day, or he is scandalously dishonest. Neither alternative gives me encouragement to engage in conversation.

Conversation disengaged. Permanently.

[omae mona]

...but it seems pretty logical that the closer you get to the disaster site (one that is still emitting radioactive material 2+years later) the more likely you'll be exposed to hot spots where the shit has collected....be it AC units, around storm drains, shrubs, trees, etc.

Yep, logical. It *is* more likely, as you say. But you're completely asking the wrong question. The right question is "how likely?". Or more specifically, "how likely are you to get cancer because of your proximity to the disaster site"? The answer is "not a chance in hell". That is, if you ignore conspiracy theorists and go with what scientists say.

You're doing much more dangerous things to your health, voluntarily, on a daily basis (including exposure to non-Fukushima radiation). So to me it seems strange to make plans around these much more infinitessimal health risks.

But it's your choice. I understand the psychological dread of going near a place called "Fukushima". I feel it myself. I just don't let it control my decisions.

[matsuki]

...but it seems pretty logical that the closer you get to the disaster site (one that is still emitting radioactive material 2+years later) the more likely you'll be exposed to hot spots where the shit has collected....be it AC units, around storm drains, shrubs, trees, etc.

Yep, logical. It *is* more likely, as you say. But you're completely asking the wrong question. The right question is "how likely?". Or more specifically, "how likely are you to get cancer because of your proximity to the disaster site"? The answer is "not a chance in hell". That is, if you ignore conspiracy theorists and go with what scientists say.

You're doing much more dangerous things to your health, voluntarily, on a daily basis (including exposure to non-Fukushima radiation). So to me it seems strange to make plans around these much more infinitessimal health risks.

But it's your choice. I understand the psychological dread of going near a place called "Fukushima". I feel it myself. I just don't let it control my decisions.

Like I mentioned before, if they actually had something like a live feed map supported by an array of geiger counters and whatnot, that would be good enough for me. Instead we have token geiger counters here and there and hear "safe" from the media, only to soo often come back to the same areas later with newer discoveries and things to avoid. If the communities there are worried about their livelihoods and this is all psychological, they should be doing their best to show the area is safe with hard data readily available...no? Add to that TEPCO/J-GOV BS and the water is further muddied. Call me lazy for not wanting to carry around my own geiger counter or spend hours trying to find recent data for the areas there but it's just easier not to go any closer than necessary for any longer than necessary. Call it irrational or unmerited, it's just my own personal take on the situation.

[Yokohammer]

Choko, you're welcome to your opinion. Nobody is trying to force you to go somewhere you don't want to go. By all means, stay as far away from Fukushima as possible (even though that's no guarantee that you won't be affected in other ways). And that goes for anyone else who's likely to get stressed to death by the thought of mere proximity to Fukushima. Nobody has to go there. But making comments that might fuel fear or misunderstanding in others as well does not help.

When I responded to your initial post I wasn't only responding to you. I was, hopefully, speaking to a wider audience (even if it's only a few) who might be negatively affected by what you said. Others who have responded most probably did so with similar intent. It's just way too easy to incite unnecessary fear and prejudice through casual comments.

So don't take it personally (but if you do it again I'm on you like a mad dog).

[matsuki]

Choko, you're welcome to your opinion. Nobody is trying to force you to go somewhere you don't want to go. By all means, stay as far away from Fukushima as possible (even though that's no guarantee that you won't be affected in other ways). And that goes for anyone else who's likely to get stressed to death by the thought of mere proximity to Fukushima. Nobody has to go there. But making comments that might fuel fear or misunderstanding in others as well does not help.

When I responded to your initial post I wasn't only responding to you. I was, hopefully, speaking to a wider audience (even if it's only a few) who might be negatively affected by what you said. Others who have responded most probably did so with similar intent. It's just way too easy to incite unnecessary fear and prejudice through casual comments.

So don't take it personally (but if you do it again I'm on you like a mad dog).

I'm not stressing at all about it and yeah, plenty of unhealthy shit here in Tokyo. I'm not trying to fuel some sort of scare mongering campaign against Fukushima either. Just saying I wouldn't choose to vacation there and there is a severe lack of info combined with a really shitty TEPCO J-gov situation.

[omae mona]

Instead we have token geiger counters here and there and hear "safe" from the media, only to soo often come back to the same areas later with newer discoveries and things to avoid. If the communities there are worried about their livelihoods and this is all psychological, they should be doing their best to show the area is safe with hard data readily available...no? Add to that TEPCO/J-GOV BS and the water is further muddied.

Choko, I am diverging from the main point I want to make, but I'm surprised to hear you, as a fluent Japanese reader, repeating the canards circulating among the English language press and the Colignys of the world. There is no scarcity of the information you're looking for. Regularly updated radiation info, maps, scientific papers, etc. are plentiful and highly available on the internet.

Like I mentioned before, if they actually had something like a live feed map supported by an array of geiger counters and whatnot, that would be good enough for me.

Want links? I think it would be pointless because no matter how much information we give, you're probably going to claim it's not enough. What's irrational is that you've created an incredibly high standard just for Fukushima when there is no actual reason to believe there is more health risk there than other places, including places you spend time regularly. You're planning your life around Rumsfeld's "unknown unknowns", but only when you're in the boundaries of a place labeled "Fukushima". You're requiring a dense array of online geiger counters for southwestern Fukushima, but you're not requiring an array of online geiger counters for parts of Miyagi or Tochigi prefecture that are actually closer to the disaster site. And an even better point: you're not requiring an array of online geiger counters for Tokyo. A "hotspot" was actually found, by accident, in Setagaya-ku in somebody's house, and if I'm not mistaken it was registering just as much radiation as any hotspots found in Fukushima anywhere outside of the evacuation zone. And it had nothing to do with Fukushima. And you can bet there are lots of other examples all over the place that nobody knows about. You knew this and you're still not requiring arrays of online geiger counters for casual travel in Tokyo.

So I think you're missing my point. I'm not saying you (or anybody) should take a gamble and go some place that is unsafe. Everybody has their own level of acceptable risk, and it's different for everybody. I'm saying it's irrational to make decisions based on avoiding a risk in one case, but accepting the exact same (or higher) risk in other cases that have no distinguishing factor. In other words, if you require arrays of online geiger counters for short term travel on the opposite side of Fukushima, you should pretty much be keeping yourself locked up in a box made of lead inside your home without leaving. And with no bananas in it.

I am saying this to try to be helpful. I usually find that when somebody I know is making decisions scrupulously avoiding tiny risks while accidentally taking much bigger risks, they are not doing it in just one part of their life. Keep your eyes open.

[Coligny]

Want links? I think it would be pointless because no matter how much information we give, you're probably going to claim it's not enough. What's irrational is that you've created an incredibly high standard just for Fukushima when there is no actual reason to believe there is more health risk there than other places,

023-0314115710-Fukushima-Explosion.jpg

Yup, no problem at all... Choko is totally irrationnal...

I am saying this to try to be helpful.

of course you do... of course...

[omae mona]

Yup, no problem at all... Choko is totally irrationnal...

Coligny, I'm honestly puzzled. Is your posting of a picture of the disaster site trying to trick readers of this thread into thinking we were talking about fun family travel to the inside of the nuclear reactor when we were actually (and obviously) talking about other parts of Fukushima which have nothing to do with it? If so, you seem to think the rest of us are too stupid to remember what we were talking about several posts ago. Just like when you claimed you never said things you had just said several posts earlier. I think you're going to find you're wrong about everybody's short-term memory.

Or are you so busy peeing your pants that you still cannot distinguish the inside of the reactor from the rest of Fukushima, despite the clear discussion above?

Meanwhile quoting diplomats who are trained professionnal liars-ass kissers is gospel... I bet you 1 week of cheeseburger money that if I give him a bag filled with enough green bill he'll come out tomorow saying your mother poontang smell like strawberry icecream.

It's amazing Coligny. In the 2.5 years since the accident, with thousands of experts worldwide qualified to assess the health impact, none have corroborated your assessment that people are going to get sick from the radiation. And your response, one by one, is that every single one of them is a paid shill. At first you had to be employed by an organization that had something to do with nuclear power or physics to be classified as a paid shill. Now you're a paid shill by working for the OECD or being a diplomat (both obviously biased to try to commit genocide via tricking people into bathing in dangerous radiation ). You seem to think the reason no experts have agreed with you is because you're literally the only ethical and competent person on the face of the earth, right?

Honestly, the arrogance is absolutely flabbergasting. Any normal person would take it as a clue that they are completely out of their league and completely wrong. But you take it as a evidence that the entire rest of the world, besides you, is made up of lying and incompetent pieces of shit. It's gotta be extremely lonely feeling you are the only ethical and only competent person on earth. I understand why you never leave your home and interact with actual human beings.

[Coligny]

Honestly, the arrogance is absolutely flabbergasting. Any normal person would take it as a clue that they are completely out of their league and completely wrong. But you take it as a evidence that the entire rest of the world, besides you, is made up of lying and incompetent pieces of shit. It's gotta be extremely lonely feeling you are the only ethical and only competent person on earth. I understand why you never leave your home and interact with actual human beings.

Since when the opinion you try to present as irrefutable facts is some kind of planet wide concensus ?

Maybe since the same day that you agreed with yourself to decide that someone upset by missmanagement of an industrial accident are "scared" and "pissing themselves"...

[omae mona]

Honestly, the arrogance is absolutely flabbergasting. Any normal person would take it as a clue that they are completely out of their league and completely wrong. But you take it as a evidence that the entire rest of the world, besides you, is made up of lying and incompetent pieces of shit. It's gotta be extremely lonely feeling you are the only ethical and only competent person on earth. I understand why you never leave your home and interact with actual human beings.

Since when the opinion you try to present as irrefutable facts is some kind of planet wide concensus ?

Since nobody has refuted them except some guy with Wikipedia in Toyohashi, for the most part. Since the opinions I present are from experts who have spent their career studying health risks of radiation, not cats and home repair.

Maybe since the same day that you agreed with yourself to decide that someone upset by missmanagement of an industrial accident are "scared" and "pissing themselves"...

Continued reading comprehension fail. Again and again I've said I'm extremely upset by the mismanagement of the industrial accident. What I am not doing is making up fake science and claiming people are facing health risks from radiation. You are still unable to separate the mismanagement issue from the issue of what health impact it had on people. This is because you are pissing yourself. Your clothes all smell like piss and are irrevocably stained brownish yellow. There are puddles of piss all over your house, and they're not from your cat.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Your clothes all smell like piss and are irrevocably stained brownish yellow. There are puddles of piss all over your house, and they're not from your cat.

Wow! That's the first time I've ever seen Omae Mona be immature on the Internet
At least he was courteous enough to speak French....

[Coligny]

Your clothes all smell like piss and are irrevocably stained brownish yellow. There are puddles of piss all over your house, and they're not from your cat.

Wow! That's the first time I've ever seen Omae Mona be immature on the Internet
At least he was courteous enough to speak French....

Surprise me and tell me you saw him say something smart one day...

for now I'll take immature over:

What I am not doing is making up fake science and claiming people are facing health risks from radiation

Complete imbecile...

Going to be soon thread over for me, it's not even funny anymore to see someone writing this kind of shit with a straight face...

[omae mona]

Wow! That's the first time I've ever seen Omae Mona be immature on the Internet
At least he was courteous enough to speak French....

In the original nuke thread, after literally being accused of a) being a TEPCO employee posting on FG and B) attempted genocide, I held my tongue for 2 years. But tonight I decided it would be fun to let loose and razz him about his bladder problems in return.

[Isle of View]

Honestly, the arrogance is absolutely flabbergasting. Any normal person would take it as a clue that they are completely out of their league and completely wrong. But you take it as a evidence that the entire rest of the world, besides you, is made up of lying and incompetent pieces of shit. It's gotta be extremely lonely feeling you are the only ethical and only competent person on earth. I understand why you never leave your home and interact with actual human beings.

Since when the opinion you try to present as irrefutable facts is some kind of planet wide concensus ?

Since nobody has refuted them except some guy with Wikipedia in Toyohashi, for the most part. Since the opinions I present are from experts who have spent their career studying health risks of radiation, not cats and home repair.

Maybe since the same day that you agreed with yourself to decide that someone upset by missmanagement of an industrial accident are "scared" and "pissing themselves"...

Continued reading comprehension fail. Again and again I've said I'm extremely upset by the mismanagement of the industrial accident. What I am not doing is making up fake science and claiming people are facing health risks from radiation. You are still unable to separate the mismanagement issue from the issue of what health impact it had on people. This is because you are pissing yourself. Your clothes all smell like piss and are irrevocably stained brownish yellow. There are puddles of piss all over your house, and they're not from your cat.

No point in arguing with someone [C-y] nwho gets their hysteric info from sites such as naturalnews.com and actually believes it.

[matsuki]

Choko, I am diverging from the main point I want to make, but I'm surprised to hear you, as a fluent Japanese reader, repeating the canards circulating among the English language press and the Colignys of the world. There is no scarcity of the information you're looking for. Regularly updated radiation info, maps, scientific papers, etc. are plentiful and highly available on the internet. Want links?

Yes I do, please post them here.

I think it would be pointless because no matter how much information we give, you're probably going to claim it's not enough. What's irrational is that you've created an incredibly high standard just for Fukushima when there is no actual reason to believe there is more health risk there than other places, including places you spend time regularly. You're planning your life around Rumsfeld's "unknown unknowns", but only when you're in the boundaries of a place labeled "Fukushima". You're requiring a dense array of online geiger counters for southwestern Fukushima, but you're not requiring an array of online geiger counters for parts of Miyagi or Tochigi prefecture that are actually closer to the disaster site.

With nearly every post I've made since the original, I've been trying to show that my view is NOT that Fukushima (the prefecture) is totally fucked and everywhere else safe. Yoko painted that angle on me in his first response and it has seemed to have stuck but nowhere have I ever said or tried to say that. On the other hand, I keep repeating that I don't think the radiation dispersion is limited or is equally distributed based up to the borders of Fukushima prefecture. I keep saying I don't want to go anywhere closer to the disaster site than necessary, that includes the areas of Miyagi, Tochigi, Ibaraki, and Yamagata so I don't know why you guys keep saying I'm limiting my concern to Fukushima.

And an even better point: you're not requiring an array of online geiger counters for Tokyo. A "hotspot" was actually found, by accident, in Setagaya-ku in somebody's house, and if I'm not mistaken it was registering just as much radiation as any hotspots found in Fukushima anywhere outside of the evacuation zone. And it had nothing to do with Fukushima. And you can bet there are lots of other examples all over the place that nobody knows about. You knew this and you're still not requiring arrays of online geiger counters for casual travel in Tokyo.

So I think you're missing my point. I'm not saying you (or anybody) should take a gamble and go some place that is unsafe. Everybody has their own level of acceptable risk, and it's different for everybody. I'm saying it's irrational to make decisions based on avoiding a risk in one case, but accepting the exact same (or higher) risk in other cases that have no distinguishing factor. In other words, if you require arrays of online geiger counters for short term travel on the opposite side of Fukushima, you should pretty much be keeping yourself locked up in a box made of lead inside your home without leaving. And with no bananas in it.

I am saying this to try to be helpful. I usually find that when somebody I know is making decisions scrupulously avoiding tiny risks while accidentally taking much bigger risks, they are not doing it in just one part of their life. Keep your eyes open.

Yeah, I remember when they found that shit here and I'm sure they'll find more with all the new sales of Geiger counters. As I've said several times already, I'm not avoiding those areas when it comes to work nor do I think I'm going to get cancer by walking around there. I just wouldn't choose to vacation there based on what I've seen thus far. Call it irrational or over buffering but I'm not close minded about it and I'm not saying I'll never change my mind about it, it's just my current position based on what I've seen/read up until now.

...and it's a pretty big leap from not wanting to vacation there and locking myself up in a lead box. (no nana's on me current fucked diet anyway)

[omae mona]

nearly every post I've made since the original, I've been trying to show that my view is NOT that Fukushima (the prefecture) is totally fucked and everywhere else safe. Yoko painted that angle on me in his first response and it has seemed to have stuck but nowhere have I ever said or tried to say that.

Choko, my apologies. You are absolutely right. I drew wrong inferences from subsequent messages without reading carefully what you wrote. Sorry about that.

I will try to dig up some links later today and post them. I stopped tracking them regularly in 2011 and long lost my mega bookmark list, but think I can reconstruct.

[Russell]

nearly every post I've made since the original, I've been trying to show that my view is NOT that Fukushima (the prefecture) is totally fucked and everywhere else safe. Yoko painted that angle on me in his first response and it has seemed to have stuck but nowhere have I ever said or tried to say that.

Choko, my apologies. You are absolutely right. I drew wrong inferences from subsequent messages without reading carefully what you wrote. Sorry about that.

I will try to dig up some links later today and post them. I stopped tracking them regularly in 2011 and long lost my mega bookmark list, but think I can reconstruct.

Methinks this thread title has become increasingly accurate in the last week...

Anyway, thanks to Hammer's geometrical exercises I now understand that Fukushima should be split into two prefectures: Outer-Fukushima, where optimistic FG usually take their vacations, and Inner-Fukushima, where all bets are off.

Regarding the health risks for people living in Fukushima, wasn't it reported recently that they are more pessimistic than initially expected (in terms of cancers for the kids, etc)? So, omae mona, your links until 2011 are not going to convince anybody. (and certainly not Coligny, but then again, nothing is going to convince him)

That said, yeah, we should not panic, but I completely agree with Choko's position.

And in the end,it is a matter of trust. One supermarket in my neighborhood sells milk brands from exclusively Kanto, the other supermarket mostly from Kansai. Guess where I buy my milk?

[Coligny]

I have some old bookmark from 1932...

15.3.JPG

What I am not doing is making up fake science and claiming people are facing health risks from radiation

Nope, you are just setting the clocks back around 70 [EDIT: 2013-1932=81 can I claim my mathematical aversion as a medical disability ?] years...

I can't wait to see phrenology being fashionable again....

'of to do some laundry...

[matsuki]

nearly every post I've made since the original, I've been trying to show that my view is NOT that Fukushima (the prefecture) is totally fucked and everywhere else safe. Yoko painted that angle on me in his first response and it has seemed to have stuck but nowhere have I ever said or tried to say that.

Choko, my apologies. You are absolutely right. I drew wrong inferences from subsequent messages without reading carefully what you wrote. Sorry about that.

I will try to dig up some links later today and post them. I stopped tracking them regularly in 2011 and long lost my mega bookmark list, but think I can reconstruct.

No worries, Yoko started it!!! haha

2011 info might not be so helpful. Most of my "fear" is based on all the recent documentaries on Fukushima where they're actually on the ground and interviewing people that live in and around the areas most effected. Often they would show an area declared to be "safe" but then go in and check only to find hotspots in all kinds of places they didn't consider (and some that anyone could have guessed) For example, in many places, they raked off the topsoil of the wooded areas only to find out the living trees had higher readings than the soil/dead leaves ever did. They interviewed local authorities who were upset that experienced cleanup companies from all over the world and even local companies were turned away only to see the cleanup effort get delegated to construction companies who had neither experience or equipment to deal with the situation. Then...in true Japanese fashion, they made a half assed plan of attack (without anything solid for disposal) and every time they discovered a problem with a method or more problems, they couldn't do anything about it for months until the new situation was assessed and action was approved. Between the current leaking, natural dispersion and all the dispersion the "cleanup" is doing, I don't think anyone has a crystal clear picture of how the shit is spreading and will continue to spread. Like I said before though, I'm not all panicked or stressed to the point where I won't go anywhere near the area nor do I think I'll get cancer by going there...I just wouldn't want to vacation any closer to there than needed.

[Yokohammer]

No worries, Yoko started it!!! haha

Nope. I didn't start anything.

I'm just trying to quell unqualified comments that might misrepresent the situation.
Unfortunately, it's like trying to put out a fire in an oil refinery by pissing on it.

Always be aware of your sources. There's a lot of bullshit being thrown around.
Just because you read it "somewhere" doesn't make it true.