Pledge of Allegiance

[cstaylor]

BTW: my egregious ad hominem attack was meant to cover my retreat from this argument.

[cstaylor]

Actually the founding fathers didn't want to pay anymore taxes because they realized they could get more money. The poor stayed poor and the rich got richer. A staple of history.

One of my history teachers said the same thing. That's a rather pat answer: you could say something just as dismissive about the Civil Rights movement in America ("They just wanted a seat anywhere on the bus"). Yes, some people involved in the foundation of the United States were interested in keeping some of their own cash, but I would hesitate to say every founding father simply wanted to escape taxes. I really don't think Washington would have camped in Valley Forge for an extra 5%, or Thomas Jefferson suffer the noose for treason just to skip out on the Stamp tax.

Check out Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States

I will see if it is at the library... and I'll let you know what I think (I saw a few points made on the Amazon boards that there are very few footnotes... any comments from someone who has the book?)

Albert Einstein once said "Nationalism is the measles of modern day society"

Albert Einstein was an excellent physicist and a decent philosopher... but he also had the benefit of fleeing one ultra-nationalist nation to seek refuge in another. His pacificism leaves a lot to be desired-- if America laid down her arms and threw down the flag as Hitler stormed over the Channel, you can bet it would have only been a few years before Nazis (probably home-grown) would be walking down the Washington D.C. Mall. Remember: Rich White Men were supporting Hitler. You had Baldwin and Chamberlain in Great Britian avoiding war at all costs (and destroying countless lives in Central Europe in the process of appeasement) and Americans like Joseph Kennedy hobnobbing with the likes of Goering in Berlin.

It started WW2, creates racism etc. etc.

You think nationalism creates racism? You must be a Japanese, 'cause being an American is about ideas, not what two chromosomes are rubbed together. Kamome will probably jump on this statement, but as the Constitution stands today, it's one of the fairest documents for people of all races. Now, fair enforcement of those laws? That's another subject altogther.

Don't be proud of what your country is, be proud of what you do personally

I'd agree with that. The two things that always bug me are: [1] People proud of their race [2] and taking credit for what their country has done in the past. I think America has some very good laws, but that's in spite of people like me.

[Mr. BIG]

The two things that always bug me are: [1] People proud of their race [2] and taking credit for what their country has done in the past.

I completely agree with that....we're ALL human, and I doubt that there's a country/government on this planet that hasn't violated human rights in one way or another in the past....

[kamome]

My fellow F*cked Gaijin: Kamome must be a corporate lawyer.

I will neither confirm nor deny that statement. Oops, did I just say that?

BTW: my egregious ad hominem attack was meant to cover my retreat from this argument.

I'll take that as your admission of defeat.

...mincing the definitions of words...

Aren't you the one who doesn't forgive the slightest statistical discrepancy? If I'm a word mincer, you're a number mincer.

...desiring network spy utilities to search for company gossip...

Nah, I was just looking for a way to play around with my company's piss poor system.

[kamome]

Hey, ultra, I noticed no one has commented on your lovely "Eat My Ass" picture earlier in the thread.

I think it was ignored among the onslaught of postings about this thorny topic. Maybe it should have been posted elsewhere to ensure it gets its proper due?

[cstaylor]

Damn, are you having a case of forgot-to-wipus? Bleech!

[kamome]

Scalia mocks gay sex and anti-pledge rulings

Scalia spoke after standing with some 800 others to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

The Supreme Court announced last week that it will hear a case testing the constitutionality of the current version of the pledge as it is recited in public schools and that Scalia will not take part.

Scalia apparently sidelined himself because of remarks he made earlier this year critical of a lower court ruling in the case. The San Francisco-based 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals (news - web sites) had found the pledge was unconstitutional in public school classroom because of the phrase, "one nation, under God."

The Supreme Court could decide to strip the words "under God" from the patriotic oath or rule that the mention of God does not violate the notion of separation of church and state.

Just thought I'd resurrect a favorite old thread for everyone's enjoyment.