Moving due to Fukushima disaster?

[Coligny]

I won't ask what mathematical marvel that makes radiation and Daichi safe for the whole country.

The "mathematical marvel" is the specific numbers measuring radiation levels, compared with the amount of radiation it takes to increase the risk of cancer. I know this may sound like fancy math to you, but you probably studied multiplication once in your childhood even if you have forgotten it.

Awesome, here we go again... Which radiation level ? Airborne ? Internal accidental exposition ? Food, drink water, rainwater, dust, radioactive debris incinerations, use of contamined material in concrete...
In one sentence you have shown that no matter how many truth and technicality you hide behind, you are ignoring the scope of the problem... It also goes inline with the complete refutal of any possibility that "hot particles" may be lethal or even exist...

If you narrow any problem to only the parameters that fit your argumentation... Sure the numbers will fit too... You might as well start from the conclusion...

[Coligny]

[Click on image to enlarge. Can anyone spot the one error?]

I count 2:

1- The xkcd graph... Again... At day 2 it was still ok... Now we are at day +7xx

2- out of all the spermatozoids, you won... so either Darwin got it all wrong or it's just that you have not hit puberty yet...

I think I already saw the geiger bullshit... Mine give the same numbers, one is ukrainian, one is german, calibrated and certified tuv. Explain to me why a guy in the US giving a dubious explanation for a reading is any kind of relevant to health and safety risks in japan ?

One element I have for sure airborne levels are at least 0.03 microsievert higher when the wind direction come from north east. Is it lethal or reason to seal off the bunker... No, despite the fact that you seems to wet your panties just thinking everyone else is panicking and you are the only smart one... Is it an indication that something is amiss at totally uncontained somewhere... YES... Is it a reason to worry despite all the people dying everyday while choking on a pretzell... It's not your call to make...

I still remain with the feeling that the reason behind some behaviour is some sort of twisted powertrip... The fact that some can't admit that despite the fact that they managed to convince themselves that all was fine and dandy others dare to ignore their almightyness and wonder aboot the situation anyway.

I will sum it up one more time:
Is the situation stable and safe ?
No and doubtful
The level of reaction and preparation is up to the wishes, will and contingencies of everyone. Hell, i'm not even the kind of guy who would try to prevent anyone from jumping in front of a train if he wish to do so... Darwin is my homeboy.

You(ze) are meanwhile insisting on the certainty of the lack of risks and calling panicky mathematically challenged everyone who dares to contradict you(ze).

FFS, leaving any technical aspect of the crisis aside, even the laziest historian would see something fishy in all the governement an Tepco's communications and press release. Then... Ask himself, what they might be embarrassed about... It is exactly like this newscience (as in newspeak) who overnight declare ionizing radiations harmless... When you have to hammer the rules to shape in order to try to make them fit the situation... You might end up looking like a buffoon...

And yes, i know, bananas are radioactive too, call me when you manage to run even a 1kw reactor powered by bananas, i'll be happy to be proven wrong...

[wagyl]

[Click on image to enlarge. Can anyone spot the one error?]

I count 2:

1- The xkcd graph... Again... At day 2 it was still ok... Now we are at day +7xx

Never let it be said that FG is not an education. I now know that there are use by dates on facts. Something is correct and accepted at day two, but then, when nothing else has changed in the interim, it is not correct and is unacceptable two years later. The truth expires purely as a function of time.

This is sounding very much like

Just because somebody says something, doesn’t mean that they think that way, 24 hours a day.

which I seem to remember you rolling your eyes at.

Isle of View, I am genuinely interested: when you have given people enough time to try to answer, please do let us know where the error is.

[Coligny]

Never let it be said that FG is not an education. I now know that there are use by dates on facts.

No, but there is an expiry date for how long a fact can be claimed as a relevant argument when other factors which it was used against are continuing or evolving (increasing or decreasing).
And since it was not updated to include any type of dose and their change of magnitude (positive or negative) received by emission from Daiichi for now 7xx days, it is now like a 2 years old calendar... Still hold true for situation 2 years ago, mostly useless for today.

At that rhythm you will soon be reduced to complain about my punctuation to counter my argumentation.

[wagyl]

Never let it be said that FG is not an education. I now know that there are use by dates on facts.

No, but there is an expiry date for how long a fact can be claimed as a relevant argument when other factors which it was used against are continuing or evolving (increasing or decreasing).
And since it was not updated to include any type of dose and their change of magnitude (positive or negative) received by emission from Daiichi for now 7xx days, it is now like a 2 years old calendar... Still hold true for situation 2 years ago, mostly useless for today.

At that rhythm you will soon be reduced to complain about my punctuation to counter my argumentation.

OK then, you tell us all: how much has the dosage changed in the interim? And for extra credit, explain how that change means that we should start to change our behaviour. That chart seems like a pretty solid base for our discussions, it would be a shame to discard it all completely when with some modification to satisfy you it could be a good tool.

You see, I am interested in moving forwards towards a solution. I am not interested in arguments for the sake of an argument. Sometimes I have doubts about you.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Sometimes I have doubts about you.

Sometimes?

[Coligny]

Notice that it's a cumulative chart not a rate per hour.
So even if daiichi release per hour have been constant since the chart was made. They remain higher than in the context of a normal operating plant.
So without considering any variation, 2 weeks in exclusion zone: 1mSv
Meaning for two years 52mSv so if you still want to put it beside the big square for the maximum annual dose for a nuclear worker that's half of it per year. With the added bonus, that the maximum is in fact 100mSv over 5 years, the 50mSv being the maximum legal for any one year of this 5 years span, so even just for this you see, that while right at day or year one, the graphic become wrong if you use it for longer than 2 years.
That is also 6,5 times the natural background exposition (famous from the 'you can't escape radiation they are everywhere anyway') but they don't replace, they add up... Or not... are they already included ? It's not mentioned...
But... The EPA exposition level for 1 year to the general public is 1 mSv.... While the natural background is 4 mSv per year... Who did those math ? How would it be even possible ? Or did they mean 1mSv more than the natural background radiation ?
The fineprint says it all... "If you are basing radiation safety procedure on an internet PNG image and things go wrong, you have no one to blame but yourself". At least they are a bit careful on their statement...

[wagyl]

I am sorry, I misunderstood from the beginning. I know that I am not, but I never realised that you were in the exclusion zone and that was what we were talking about all along. I will send flowers to your hospital bed.

[Coligny]

I am sorry, I misunderstood from the beginning. I know that I am not, but I never realised that you were in the exclusion zone and that was what we were talking about all along. I will send flowers to your hospital bed.

You say the chart is a pretty solid tool.

I show you flaws on how some data have been presented. In a somewhat methodical manner.

And that's not even including the critics against the official exclusion zone or the change triggered after the initial release accumulation / cleanup / additional release

You bullshit in return. Yes I noticed, neither Toyohashi nor your mom are mentioned in the graph. It's also not an exhaustive graph for the element that can be considered for Daiichi . They just show some data they found fitting and displayed them over a timespan allowing for a cleaner linear increase between the samples shown.

Well... Try against my grammar next time...

[wagyl]

OK, how about this. Even if the figures are out by a factor of 10, I do not see any need to change my behaviour. It is up to you to make your own decision though. Even if I am being a fool, that just means more goodies for you. That could even be the end of the discussion.

I am saying that whatever is going on 10 metres or even 10 kilometres from the reactor vessel is not something which influences us here. Otherwise, you could say the exact same things about Chernobyl: OMG we have been bathing in that stuff for 27 years!!! If that constitutes "bullshitting" in your view, so be it. In my view, you like shifting the goalposts of the argument around just to keep the discussion going. I lost interest in that game long ago.

I can, however, introduce you to Arthurian romances in medieval French.... They are some cracking stories, and the tips on chivalrous practices might come in handy too.

[Isle of View]

. . .

Isle of View, I am genuinely interested: when you have given people enough time to try to answer, please do let us know where the error is.

Extra dose to Tokyo in weeks following Fukushima accident (40 µSv)

[Isle of View]

OK, how about this. Even if the figures are out by a factor of 10, I do not see any need to change my behaviour. It is up to you to make your own decision though. Even if I am being a fool, that just means more goodies for you. That could even be the end of the discussion.

I am saying that whatever is going on 10 metres or even 10 kilometres from the reactor vessel is not something which influences us here. Otherwise, you could say the exact same things about Chernobyl: OMG we have been bathing in that stuff for 27 years!!! If that constitutes "bullshitting" in your view, so be it. In my view, you like shifting the goalposts of the argument around just to keep the discussion going. I lost interest in that game long ago.

. . .

But, but Toyohashi is only about twice the distance from Fukushima as compared to Tokyo.

Some people have far far too much time on their hands . . .

[wagyl]

. . .

Isle of View, I am genuinely interested: when you have given people enough time to try to answer, please do let us know where the error is.

Extra dose to Tokyo in weeks following Fukushima accident (40 µSv)

Oh that?? Well, that can be dismissed as a classy and classic "ya wrote m instead of -sign for micro not on the ipad keyboard, but judging by the numbers quoted it could easily be deduced to be a problem with typing, not measured values- your argument are void". Even the Greats make that error repeatedly, with no ill effects, even though it is multiplying everything by 1000. At least the chart had cuisenaire rod style diagrams as well so that we could be alerted to potential errors, rather than just having to guess whatever it is that fills in for common sense in another person.

[Isle of View]

. . .

Isle of View, I am genuinely interested: when you have given people enough time to try to answer, please do let us know where the error is.

Extra dose to Tokyo in weeks following Fukushima accident (40 µSv)

Oh that?? Well, that can be dismissed as a classy and classic "ya wrote m instead of -sign for micro not on the ipad keyboard, but judging by the numbers quoted it could easily be deduced to be a problem with typing, not measured values- your argument are void". Even the Greats make that error repeatedly, with no ill effects, even though it is multiplying everything by 1000. At least the chart had cuisenaire rod style diagrams as well so that we could be alerted to potential errors, rather than just having to guess whatever it is that fills in for common sense in another person.

Certainly.

However, one can easily imagine someone claiming that the citizens of Tokyo received the same dose as if they has been all camping beside the Fukushima Daiichi power station after the incident, so I thought it worth pointing out.

[matsuki]

In an effort to end some of the bickering, I'm going to dumb down this argument...

explain how that change means that we should start to change our behaviour

Other than the obvious, avoiding the area near the nuclear plant like a hot diaper in the jungle heat, I don't think there is any specific behavior anyone has mentioned on here? Noone's advocated hazmat suits as part of their cool-biz campaign yet so I would say we're far from in panic mode at this point.

I would, however, take issue with most of Japan for totally drinking the setsuden kool-aid. Two years later and despite themselves, the setsuden excuse is still allowing all kinds of businesses to leave you in the dark, with ATM's closing early hehe closed ATM's, with wet hands, etc. YET, at nearly every place I go where the lights are on nearly all day, and the hand dryers are in use all day, they are still using shitty old (heating) light bulbs and WWII old looking appliances. Great savings for the companies getting away with it but sucks for customers. As to the companies with the lights and hand dryers still on, WTF? That's one change in behavior I would recommend.

I agree that we need to maintain vigilance.

Without getting into specifics, does anyone disagree with this? I think that's pretty much the view of most.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Coligny, with all the rambling rants you've posted on this topic since 3/11 it's never been clear what exactly your position is (economy of language: learn it). Are you saying we should take what officials are saying with a grain of salt and be vigilant, do you believe we're in serious danger even if we live well outside the exclusion zone, or are you just being an argumentative cunt?

[Coligny]

. . .

Isle of View, I am genuinely interested: when you have given people enough time to try to answer, please do let us know where the error is.

Extra dose to Tokyo in weeks following Fukushima accident (40 µSv)

Oh that?? Well, that can be dismissed as a classy and classic "ya wrote m instead of -sign for micro not on the ipad keyboard, but judging by the numbers quoted it could easily be deduced to be a problem with typing, not measured values- your argument are void". Even the Greats make that error repeatedly, with no ill effects, even though it is multiplying everything by 1000. At least the chart had cuisenaire rod style diagrams as well so that we could be alerted to potential errors, rather than just having to guess whatever it is that fills in for common sense in another person.

)[/quote]

Yea, hang on tight to this one... that sure makes you sound good...

Certainly.

However, one can easily imagine someone claiming that the citizens of Tokyo received the same dose as if they has been all camping beside the Fukushima Daiichi power station after the incident, so I thought it worth pointing out.

Don't make shit up for me please... We were talking about the validity and weakness of the XKCD graph. For this part I was not focusing on the situation of Tokyo or any other precise location beside the one used in their example.

[Coligny]

Coligny, with all the rambling rants you've posted on this topic since 3/11 it's never been clear what exactly your position is (economy of language: learn it). Are you saying we should take what officials are saying with a grain of salt and be vigilant, do you believe we're in serious danger even if we live well outside the exclusion zone, or are you just being an argumentative cunt?

My position:
Do whatever you want.
But
Don't try to rationalise your decision. (*)


Don't be a coward, do what you are doing because you want to do so, don't try to select the lies and half truth that back you up the best shouting them aloud to make them stick longer and attract company (like misery usually does)
Also and this one really piss me off as the anal retentive by the book asshole that I tend to be:
Don't let the unfinished events shape the rules.
Rewriting safety manuals in the middle of a crisis is usually an unglorious tell tale.
Writing the book as you go is only ok for first foray into new discoveries...

Used fuel rods that before the accident had to be transported in bomb proof containers able to sustain a head on crash with a train and only be carried with at least armed police escort now sits in a barely standing pool, cooled by some pumped water and a lot of luck. In a total random arrangement and with no more reaction control rods/mechanism. And are tended by random Joe Tanaka subcontracted from the local Yakuza groups who might not mind starting a recycling business out of the worst Tom clancy novel. You call that not a reason to worry ?


I eat McDonald junk nearly every day. I don't try to tell other it's harmless. I do it because I enjoy it (low standards) and don't give a fuck anymore aboot consequences. You can have my stuff when I die. I don't go shouting out loud that it's perfectly fine and people not eating McDo everyday are panicking idiots who can't read their uncalibrated geiger counters, all being backed up by internet cartoons and statement from parties having heavily vested interests in the matter.
I stay, because having a near window seat to a local disaster is awesome. I would have paid to be in a tour bus when that shit blew. The earlier this specie darwin itself into oblivion the better it is. The exclusion zone in Tchernobyl has proved that nuclear accident don't impact feline-kind (!?). When they live in the wild their life expectancy is 10 to 12 years, to short to be affected by the local radiation it seems. So nothing like this would prevent their takeover of the planet.
(plus there is this little concept that I goes by which state that nobody from the team gets left behind. since the inlaws would be stubornly near unpossible to move might as well not even try)



(*):
-those who left now regret it (as of today, maybe, when stuff was blowing up, it sounded much more to be in the better option available)
-there is no risk at all (call Tepco if you have that much info that they are missing)
-radiation are safe and are everywhere (i'll pass on that one)
-Gundersen is a poopyhead (maybe, so what)
-nobody is dead (1st: yet 2nd: that's restricting the problem to just one criteria)
-and on and on...

[Samurai_Jerk]

So you're just being an argumentative cunt. Got it.

[Russell]

. . .

Isle of View, I am genuinely interested: when you have given people enough time to try to answer, please do let us know where the error is.

Extra dose to Tokyo in weeks following Fukushima accident (40 µSv)

Party pooper, you should at least have invited Coligny to call you on his bananaphone to learn the answer...

[Coligny]

I keep the bananaphone for emergencies only... the shape is convenient to carry it when you don't have pockets...

[Coligny]

So you're just being an argumentative cunt. Got it.

How could you doubt me (/of me ???) ?

5049431_700b.jpg

Don't change much things though.

[yanpa]

Iraira will be demanding to know where that escalator is located so he can molest it.

[tokyoboy]

Do any of you take precautions about food in Japan since 3.11 and the nuclear disaster? If so, do you avoid food from Tohoku area or similar?

[Russell]

Do any of you take precautions about food in Japan since 3.11 and the nuclear disaster? If so, do you avoid food from Tohoku area or similar?

Yes and yes, just to be sure.

[Coligny]

How many times will this be asked ?

//still less dangerous than my mom's cooking though...

[tokyoboy]

Do any of you take precautions about food in Japan since 3.11 and the nuclear disaster? If so, do you avoid food from Tohoku area or similar?

Yes and yes, just to be sure.

What sort of precautions are you taking?

[tokyoboy]

Do any of you take precautions about food in Japan since 3.11 and the nuclear disaster?
If so, do you avoid food from Tohoku area or similar?
What tips can you share with those interested in this topic?

[Russell]

Do any of you take precautions about food in Japan since 3.11 and the nuclear disaster? If so, do you avoid food from Tohoku area or similar?

Yes and yes, just to be sure.

What sort of precautions are you taking?

Not buying food from Tohoku and minimize buying food from Kanto.

As for restaurants, I don't have any control over their ingredients, so I have adopted a Shikattaganai attitude (even if I eat in a restaurant in Kanto).

[omae mona]

Do any of you take precautions about food in Japan since 3.11 and the nuclear disaster? If so, do you avoid food from Tohoku area or similar?

No, and no. In fact, I might be eating more from Tohoku since for some reason the prices seem to be better on that food, lately.