Setsuden?

[matsuki]

Any of you 23ku dwellers notice the massive amount of new lights being installed everywhere? While I think it's awesome Tokyo is finally entering the 20th century with lit streets, I can't help but notice these fuckers have what appear to be ballasts attached to them. I haven't seen any info anywhere and I hope I'm wrong here...but my guess is instead of using some energy efficient (and less maintenance) LED setups, they seem to have gone with some power hungry shit that is going to add some serious stress to the powergrid.

[Yokohammer]

Most likely power supply for the LEDs rather than ballast.

= Tapatalking =

[Wage Slave]

What's wrong with ballasts anyway? They are just a kind of power supply for fluorescent lights which are in turn relatively efficient. Their main purpose is to limit the current that a fluorescent tube can draw.

As noted, LED lights run on very low voltage DC so need a good power supply unit to convert and rectify the mains supply. They are still pricey but are very efficient and have a much longer life. They are coming down in price now so are likely to be a great candidate for street lighting.

[matsuki]

It might not be a ballast, I'm not sure, which is why I'm asking. My limited searching online hasn't yielded any info but what I thought was just the neighborhood around my office has turned out to be a 23ku-wide project.

[Wage Slave]

Out of interest, what proportion of the lighting in homes have people converted to LED? My feeling is that the prices have now dropped far enough to start fitting them. So far, my place is still 95% fluorescent but the process is underway - especially in high usage areas.

[Yokohammer]

You'll know when they turn 'em on.

I'm thinking that maintenance-intensive fluorescents in this day and age would just be too stupid ... even for Tokyo. Unless, of course, there was a gov't-connected contractor who had warehouses full of FL fixtures somewhere.

[Wage Slave]

You'll know when they turn 'em on.

I'm thinking that maintenance-intensive fluorescents in this day and age would just be too stupid ... even for Tokyo. Unless, of course, there was a gov't-connected contractor who had warehouses full of FL fixtures somewhere.

It's all a question of economics really. How are fluorescents maintenance intensive? The are pretty low maintenance aren't they? And pretty efficient. LEDs are (in theory) lower maintenance and even more efficient but they are also pricey. Fluorescents are still not at all bad though. Notice how few businesses have abandoned them in favour of LEDs.

[J.A.F.O]

Bulbs that don't burn out. Over a hundred years old and counting. I know its not exactly on topic but I find it interesting.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... tbulb.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest-la ... ight_bulbs

And a neat article about pioneering LED's in the world of GE dominated bulbs.

http://www.inc.com/magazine/19860301/9470.html

But who would make it? Potential domestic suppliers, the trio discovered, weren't interested, and most Taiwanese manufacturers declined as well. "As soon as we told them we wanted to make a long-life bulb," says Monahan, "they'd say, 'No way, Jose. We're in the bulb-replacement business." One, the last on their list of possibilities, finally agreed.

[Yokohammer]

You'll know when they turn 'em on.

I'm thinking that maintenance-intensive fluorescents in this day and age would just be too stupid ... even for Tokyo. Unless, of course, there was a gov't-connected contractor who had warehouses full of FL fixtures somewhere.

It's all a question of economics really. How are fluorescents maintenance intensive? The are pretty low maintenance aren't they? And pretty efficient. LEDs are (in theory) lower maintenance and even more efficient but they are also pricey. Fluorescents are still not at all bad though. Notice how few businesses have abandoned them in favour of LEDs.

How often are all-night fluorescent streetlights re-tubed? I don't have an actual figure, but I'm guessing once a year, maybe more. The "long life" fluorescents in my kitchen only last a couple of years, and they only last that long because they're only used for a few hours each night (and the starters crap out occasionally too). LED lighting rated for 40,000 hours running eight hours a day should last for 13 years or so.

I think offices are waiting for the last FL tube to flicker out before they'll be prepared to fork out for relatively expensive LED lighting, because they see it as a lump-sum expense. They also figure that by the time they're ready to do that LED tubes will have come down in price considerably (they will have). It's a strategy that kind of makes sense for existing fixtures, but not for new installations.

[Wage Slave]

About 1.5 billion incandescent light bulbs are sold every year in the United States

Wow. They've been withdrawn from sale in the EU and even Daiso sell compact fluorescents now. Why would anyone normal still be using incandescents?

[Samurai_Jerk]

About 1.5 billion incandescent light bulbs are sold every year in the United States

Wow. They've been withdrawn from sale in the EU and even Daiso sell compact fluorescents now. Why would anyone normal still be using incandescents?

As apposed to fluorescents? Fluorescent lighting is still ugly and hard on the eyes.

[matsuki]

Out of interest, what proportion of the lighting in homes have people converted to LED? My feeling is that the prices have now dropped far enough to start fitting them. So far, my place is still 95% fluorescent but the process is underway - especially in high usage areas.

My home in Niigata is 100% LED and I'm working on getting the temple fitted with as many as possible, starting with the lights that seem to stay on all the time.

How are fluorescents maintenance intensive? The are pretty low maintenance aren't they? And pretty efficient. LEDs are (in theory) lower maintenance and even more efficient but they are also pricey. Fluorescents are still not at all bad though. Notice how few businesses have abandoned them in favour of LEDs.

Depends on the LED and fluorescent setup you are comparing but if you consider how many bulbs there are in Tokyo and how much time/money it costs to replace bulbs, the lifetime of the LED's will reduce all that considerably. Not to mention the LED tend to be more durable so I suspect there would be less damaged by weather, idiots, animals, etc.

[Wage Slave]

You'll know when they turn 'em on.

I'm thinking that maintenance-intensive fluorescents in this day and age would just be too stupid ... even for Tokyo. Unless, of course, there was a gov't-connected contractor who had warehouses full of FL fixtures somewhere.

It's all a question of economics really. How are fluorescents maintenance intensive? The are pretty low maintenance aren't they? And pretty efficient. LEDs are (in theory) lower maintenance and even more efficient but they are also pricey. Fluorescents are still not at all bad though. Notice how few businesses have abandoned them in favour of LEDs.

How often are all-night fluorescent streetlights re-tubed? I don't have an actual figure, but I'm guessing once a year, maybe more. The "long life" fluorescents in my kitchen only last a couple of years, and they only last that long because they're only used for a few hours each night (and the starters crap out occasionally too). LED lighting rated for 40,000 hours running eight hours a day should last for 13 years or so.

I think offices are waiting for the last FL tube to flicker out before they'll be prepared to fork out for relatively expensive LED lighting, because they see it as a lump-sum expense. They also figure that by the time they're ready to do that LED tubes will have come down in price considerably (they will have). It's a strategy that kind of makes sense for existing fixtures, but not for new installations.

Well, the all night/all day (Yes it isn't switched!) bulb outside my place has been changed once in 7 years. So I'm guessing your estimates are way high. The fluorescents in my kitchen have been running for at least 5 years. I recently had to change the lounge bulbs after 7 years.

How many newbuild offices and shops have you seen without fluorescent lighting? It may be happening but I haven't noticed it.

It may well be the best decision for Tokyo to fit LED street lighting. I am just saying it is not a total no brainer, typical idiot Japanese bureaucrats etc etc.

[matsuki]

About 1.5 billion incandescent light bulbs are sold every year in the United States

Wow. They've been withdrawn from sale in the EU and even Daiso sell compact fluorescents now. Why would anyone normal still be using incandescents?

Last week in the US I was looking for LED replacements at some of the major DIY outlets. The offering is pathetic.

[Coligny]

You'll know when they turn 'em on.

I'm thinking that maintenance-intensive fluorescents in this day and age would just be too stupid ... even for Tokyo. Unless, of course, there was a gov't-connected contractor who had warehouses full of FL fixtures somewhere.

It's all a question of economics really. How are fluorescents maintenance intensive? The are pretty low maintenance aren't they? And pretty efficient. LEDs are (in theory) lower maintenance and even more efficient but they are also pricey. Fluorescents are still not at all bad though. Notice how few businesses have abandoned them in favour of LEDs.

How often are all-night fluorescent streetlights re-tubed? I don't have an actual figure, but I'm guessing once a year, maybe more. The "long life" fluorescents in my kitchen only last a couple of years, and they only last that long because they're only used for a few hours each night (and the starters crap out occasionally too). LED lighting rated for 40,000 hours running eight hours a day should last for 13 years or so.

I think offices are waiting for the last FL tube to flicker out before they'll be prepared to fork out for relatively expensive LED lighting, because they see it as a lump-sum expense. They also figure that by the time they're ready to do that LED tubes will have come down in price considerably (they will have). It's a strategy that kind of makes sense for existing fixtures, but not for new installations.

Got a fluo in mah street that burn out on a monthly basis...

Try dealextreme for led bulbs... Cheaperestest evar...

[Wage Slave]

Got a fluo in mah street that burn out on a monthly basis...

Ballast must be faulty and allowing it to draw too much current. Are they really just changing the bulb every month? That is moronic. And so is the fact that quite a few of the lights around my place have no switching at all. They burn 24/7. I shudder to think how that happened. It's quite random as well - Most are switched but about 15% aren't.

Picture 34.jpg

[Yokohammer]

When it comes to public lighting they normally don't wait for a bulb to burn out before it's replaced (unless it's a very small town). The bulbs are preemptively replaced at regular intervals. In some cases a burnt out bulb can result in serious liability.

[Wage Slave]

When it comes to public lighting they normally don't wait for a bulb to burn out before it's replaced (unless it's a very small town). The bulbs are preemptively replaced at regular intervals. In some cases a burnt out bulb can result in serious liability.

Not around here they don't - And it isn't a very small town. Bulbs are replaced when they clap out. Anyway from Wikipedia

" Conventional linear fluorescent lamps have life spans around 20,000 and 30,000 hours based on 3 hours per cycle according to lamps NLPIP reviewed in 2006."

So, burning say 10 hours a day a bulb would last 6.8 years which seems about right to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LED_lamp

[Yokohammer]

Slow day?

Just to point out how consistent information on the Internet can be, this ...

Typically a fluorescent lamp will last between 10 to 20 times as long as an equivalent incandescent lamp when operated several hours at a time. Under standard test conditions general lighting lamps have 9,000 hours or longer service life.

... from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp

Same Wikipedia. 20,000 ~ 30,000 hours vs. 9,000 hours. Go figure

Also, some outside light fixtures are managed by the "chonaikai" rather than the local government.

[Wage Slave]

Well even if you do change them pre-emptively, you aren't going to do it more often than once every five years or so. So the proposition that fluorescent lighting for large and public places is high maintenance is unproven. It is low maintenance and fairly energy efficient.

LED lighting is likely to be even lower maintenance and more energy efficient. However the initial cost of LED lighting is still relatively high. I would also say that the reliability of the DC power supplies is as yet unproven. DC Power supplies in general don't have a great track record to say the least. They rely on large electrolytic capacitors for smoothing and they are notoriously problematic.

[Wage Slave]

Same Wikipedia. 20,000 ~ 30,000 hours vs. 9,000 hours. Go figure

9,000 hours refers to compact fluorescents not strip light fluorescents.

Lifespan (hours) 1,000 3,500 8,000 25,000 25,000 30,000
Bulb Type Incan Halo /CFL/ LED/LED/LED

[Yokohammer]

5 years? Not a chance, matey.
Oh FFS ... speculation is useless.

Here's a pdf that covers Nakano-ku's plan to go all LED ... which also sort of answers Choko's question: yes, most municipalities are going LED.

http://www.kankyo.metro.tokyo.jp/climate/other/attachement/22nakano.pdf

They're saying that while LED lights will only have to be changed every 10 years or so, mercury vapour lamps have to be changed every 4 years, and fluorescents even more frequently (also keep in mind that fluorescents are not a primary choice for anything but backroads and residential side roads). If you Google around the various municipalities that are doing this you get estimates of about 6,000 hours for fluorescents. Now those are the municipal gov't figures, not mine. One document specified that LEDs would have to be changed 4 times less frequently than fluorescents, meaning that fluorescents would have be changed after about 2.5 years, max.

[Wage Slave]

Well, different fittings and different bulbs will no doubt have different lives. And I can't read that PDF so I'll have to take your word for it. However, the light right outside my house has been changed once in 8 years and it burns 24/7. Data from international studies indicates a life of 20,000 to 30,000 hours for a typical bulb. I have just changed the bulbs in my lounge after 7 years.

You are slowly shifting though. At first you confidently estimated a life of less than a year. Keep going and you'll get there. BTW, if you are really changing your kitchen tubes every two years you need to get a new ballast because that is far too often and the tubes aren't cheap either.

LED lights are likely to be a good idea - However, they are not a no brainer for every application yet. Nor are they yet proven.

[Yokohammer]

You are slowly shifting though. At first you confidently estimated a life of less than a year. Keep going and you'll get there.

No. My original figure was a guesstimate (and I said I didn't have an actual figure, I said I was guessing, so your "confidently estimated" comment is way out of line). You came back with a totally unrealistic estimate of your own, so I did the research. The latest figures are based on proper research and are final.

If you still think municipal light bulb replacement policies should be based on the lights in your lounge, you might want to go down to your local ward office and discuss it with them.

[Wage Slave]

The latest figures are based on proper research and are final.

Well we only have your word for that - I'd say you are overstating because you it somehow bolsters your sagging ego.

Anyway, you can I hope recognise that fluorescent street lighting is in fact both low maintenance and energy efficient. That's why no-one is rushing to replace it with LED lights. And why businesses aren't in any rush. And why your house is not full of LED lights.

LED lighting for future installations will likely be a good idea but it isn't yet a no brainer. As the cost falls it probably will become an obvious choice. Can you live with that?

[wagyl]

Choko I wish you would stop starting controversial threads which become flame wars

[Yokohammer]

Wage Slave,

What on earth are you talking about? Are you just arguing for the sake of it (a conclusion I am rapidly approaching)?

I just got through describing how most municipalities in Tokyo are engaged in a changeover to LED lighting right now. That's what Choko is seeing. If you poke around for about two minutes you'll find that Osaka, Kyoto, Gunma, and many other areas are doing the same. Where do you get this "That's why no-one is rushing to replace it with LED lights" horseshit? You can only be pulling it out of your hat (to bolster your sagging ego?) because the facts are right in front of your face if you care to search a little.

Can't read Japanese? That might slow you down a little, but it doesn't excuse you from doing some actual research if you're going to make bold claims. Put a little effort into it.

And as for another bold claim you make about my house, of which you know nothing save for the fact that I have a couple of fluorescent lights in my kitchen, my house is full of LED lighting, except for the kitchen (because LED tubes for existing fixtures have only recently become available). The rest is all LED.

Anyway, enough of this. I'm doing the work and you're making shit up, so nothing of value can come of this discussion.

[Yokohammer]

Choko I wish you would stop starting controversial threads which become flame wars

Yeah ... Choko, don't you have some lemurs to chase or something better to do than inciting unrest?

[Wage Slave]

OK, I give up. Fluorescent lighting is high maintenance and energy inefficient. The world is rushing to replace it with LEDs.

[matsuki]

Choko I wish you would stop starting controversial threads which become flame wars

Yeah ... Choko, don't you have some lemurs to chase or something better to do than inciting unrest?

Thanks for posting that PDF, this is indeed Nakano I'm talking about. Well I'm happy I was wrong about them being some inefficient shit burning through the already taxed grid....nice to see something being done right for once.

(hops in car to pick up this weekend's lemur)