Setsuden?

[Yokohammer]

Works with cars that support obd2 protocol. All euro and US cars.

This is the code scanner I got (I did not make this video ... although I should probably make one because this one is crap).

Made in China, but this one has been getting some decent reviews. It's BMW/Mini specific, and you start by selecting the model you have (Z4 E85 in my case). It goes pretty deep, and gives you written explanations of the codes (otherwise you need to cross-reference to a list ... ultra PITA). Of course you can clear the codes as well. Haven't tried it out yet, but will tomorrow after washing the car. I've been waiting all gosh-darned week for the damn rain to stop so I could finish some tweaks to the finish and wash the thing. At last ...

[Russell]

This is much less than the 470 k Ohm resistor in parallel with it, so this resistor can basically be ignored. I maintain my opinion that it is just for discharging the capacitor when power is switched off.

What the two 150 Ohm resistors are for is becoming more and more a mystery to me. The same current goes through both of them, if Wage Slave's schematic is correct (and I think it is, judging by the pics he posted), but one is likely rated for a higher power than the other, given their size differences. That does not make sense at all. If they have a function at all, they could as well be replaced by a single resistor.

You are right about the 470k resistor. It's just a bleeder. R1 in the better design is 150 ohms and provides protection from inrush current when switched on. Exactly how I am not sure. I suppose just a bit of resistance will reduce the flow enough to give the capacitor time to reach charge?

Yes, that's it. That is the way an RC circuit works.

I agree regarding the Daiso circuit. Why then have two resistors when one would do it? Perhaps I was right and one, (the SMD device for preference) is fusible and the other conventional? But still, why not a 300 ohm fusible in that case? Maybe the maker just got a ridiculous deal on those specific two resistors?

Maybe, but I wonder why there is such a difference in their sizes if the same current goes through them.

I would expect the SMD to be used as bleeding resistor, but your pics seem to tell otherwise.

Ah, maybe it is just a badly designed circuit...

[Wage Slave]

Right, some readings:

Mains with no load: 101.2 VAC

1) Voltage across the output of the two 150Ω input resistors (before the resistor/cap).

101.2 VAC

2) Voltage across the output end of the cap and the output of the other input resistor (i.e. across the bridge input).

4.8 VAC

... and ...

3) No 2) above with the output of the cap/resistor disconnected from the bridge.

101.3 VAC

4) DC at the bridge with the LED out of circuit

91 VDC

Forward voltage to switch on the LED 1.12 VDC

Reading 1) and 2) make perfect sense. I can't say I can explain readings 3) and 4) except to say that the circuit is very sensitive to impedance?

The thing still works after my delicate attentions so I don't think component damage has skewed readings.

[Yokohammer]

Right, some readings:

Mains with no load: 101.2 VAC

1) Voltage across the output of the two 150Ω input resistors (before the resistor/cap).

101.2 VAC

2) Voltage across the output end of the cap and the output of the other input resistor (i.e. across the bridge input).

4.8 VAC

... and ...

3) No 2) above with the output of the cap/resistor disconnected from the bridge.

101.3 VAC

4) DC at the bridge with the LED out of circuit

91 VDC

Forward voltage to switch on the LED 1.12 VDC

Reading 1) and 2) make perfect sense. I can't say I can explain readings 3) and 4) except to say that the circuit is very sensitive to impedance?

The thing still works after my delicate attentions so I don't think component damage has skewed readings.

Well done! Thanks.

OK, that's kind of what I expected.
3) Tells us that the cap/resistor alone are not dropping the voltage at all. But as I hinted at in my electroshock horror story above, the cap will limit the amount of current getting through, and that means that the voltage will drop readily across any subsequent load.

So the input resistors and cap are limiting the current, then the actual voltage drop is occurring across the bridge and LED.

That's my story ... and I'm sticking' to it (until I change my mind).

Really flakey design, but it'll work. For a while.

I still have no idea why one of those input resistors is an SMD and the other is a big-ass half-watt mother though ...

[Wage Slave]

Having built numerous audio and guitar amplifiers in the past, I'm not proud to admit that I have had direct physical encounters with 100 VAC coming through 0.47µF caps (we use 'em for hum cancelling in the power switch sometimes).

Caps are standard fitting on valve radios in a similar position to cancel mains hum. And they have always met a violent end at some point. They are much smaller though - more like .02 or .03uf. A lot of people just cut them out as mains hum isn't the issue it was - I fit a Y rated equivalent just because they are available now.

[Wage Slave]

3) Tells us that the cap/resistor alone are not dropping the voltage at all. But as I hinted at in my electroshock horror story above, the cap will limit the amount of current getting through, and that means that the voltage will drop readily across any subsequent load.

So the input resistors and cap are limiting the current, then the actual voltage drop is occurring across the bridge and LED.

Yep that must be it. I was pretty surprised to see 90 VDC at the bridge. But yeah, it's at such a low current that it will drop like a stone to 4.8V with just the load of the LED on it.

I wonder what's in those 400 Yen Panasonic bulbs?

[Russell]

Right, some readings:

Mains with no load: 101.2 VAC

1) Voltage across the output of the two 150Ω input resistors (before the resistor/cap).

101.2 VAC

2) Voltage across the output end of the cap and the output of the other input resistor (i.e. across the bridge input).

4.8 VAC

... and ...

3) No 2) above with the output of the cap/resistor disconnected from the bridge.

101.3 VAC

4) DC at the bridge with the LED out of circuit

91 VDC

Forward voltage to switch on the LED 1.12 VDC

Reading 1) and 2) make perfect sense. I can't say I can explain readings 3) and 4) except to say that the circuit is very sensitive to impedance?

The thing still works after my delicate attentions so I don't think component damage has skewed readings.

Well done! Thanks.

OK, that's kind of what I expected.
3) Tells us that the cap/resistor alone are not dropping the voltage at all.

Nope, incorrect conclusion.

By disconnecting the output of the capacitor from the bridge, you create an open circuit. Of course you will then measure around 100 VAC, because you measure across the two open ends. No current goes through the capacitor in this case, so it will have no reactance. It is the bleeding resistor that dominates the impedance, giving you 100 VAC. Take that away, and you will measure 0 VAC.

[Coligny]

Made in China, but this one has been getting some decent reviews. It's BMW/Mini specific, and you start by selecting the model you have (Z4 E85 in my case). It goes pretty deep, and gives you written explanations of the codes (otherwise you need to cross-reference to a list ... ultra PITA). Of course you can clear the codes as well. Haven't tried it out yet, but will tomorrow after washing the car. I've been waiting all gosh-darned week for the damn rain to stop so I could finish some tweaks to the finish and wash the thing. At last ...

You wash your car !?

When we switched the whip the new one annoyed me to no end shining like an oiled wrestler, lucky some mudding and rain took care of that. And since the last typhoon/ flooded street crossing I even got rust drooling on the alloy wheel coming from the central bolt. I'd buy some fake mudsplatter vinyl if it was available...

[Yokohammer]

Nope, incorrect conclusion.

By disconnecting the output of the capacitor from the bridge, you create an open circuit. Of course you will then measure around 100 VAC, because you measure across the two open ends. No current goes through the capacitor in this case, so it will have no reactance. It is the bleeding resistor that dominates the impedance, giving you 100 VAC. Take that away, and you will measure 0 VAC.

Take the bleed resistor out of circuit and you'll measure 0 VAC at the output end of the capacitor?
I kinda doubt it. If it was DC input, yes, but not with AC.

Perhaps we can get Wage Slave to test that ...

[Yokohammer]

You wash your car !?

Wash, polish, and wax (sometimes two types). But the Beamer gets special treatment. The Honda usually only gets washed.

In fact, I just got done filling and levelling some scratches and stone chips, which involved wet sanding and compound, so now the whole car has to be clay-barred and re-polished/waxed.

(This is fun ... two unrelated subjects running in parallel in one thread ... moderator nightmare ...).

[Wage Slave]

Yep. Can do - can't promise tonight though but we will see. Oh, what would I give for a workshop?

I reckon we will see 100 VAC the same as if the resistor is in circuit. To me it seems that the capacitor is doing all the work by dropping the current available down to milliamp levels but it isn't dropping the voltage directly. A digital multimeter will show 100V available because it presents no effective load. However, the moment even a small load is put on it the voltage plummets to 4.8V. This is a bit like the way a battery might test OK on a multimeter but rapidly craps out the moment you try to use it. Consider if you were to test an unusable car battery with a meter and no load. You would see 12V but try to start the car and you might not even have enough current to trip the solenoid never mind turn the engine. At that point you might well only have a few volts flowing through the circuit. I have a feeling that an analogue meter might present enough load and so produce different, and much lower readings on that capacitor.


This is why the better circuit above has a "power on" led built in. It's not optional if you want to see 4.8V (or whatever) at the output.

[Wage Slave]

OK. Result. With the bleed resistor out of circuit and the dropping capacitor disconnected from the bridge I get 101 VAC at the output of the capacitor. Hence, there most certainly is 101V lurking in there on power off and hence the first thing I did was discharge it with a 1.5k wirewound resistor I keep especially for the job.

[Russell]

Yep. Can do - can't promise tonight though but we will see. Oh, what would I give for a workshop?

I reckon we will see 100 VAC the same as if the resistor is in circuit. To me it seems that the capacitor is doing all the work by dropping the current available down to milliamp levels but it isn't dropping the voltage directly. A digital multimeter will show 100V available because it presents no effective load. However, the moment even a small load is put on it the voltage plummets to 4.8V. This is a bit like the way a battery might test OK on a multimeter but rapidly craps out the moment you try to use it. Consider if you were to test an unusable car battery with a meter and no load. You would see 12V but try to start the car and you might not even have enough current to trip the solenoid never mind turn the engine. At that point you might well only have a few volts flowing through the circuit. I have a feeling that an analogue meter might present enough load and so produce different, and much lower readings on that capacitor.


This is why the better circuit above has a "power on" led built in. It's not optional if you want to see 4.8V (or whatever) at the output.

I think the voltage drops so much when the LED is in the circuit, because its impedance is much lower than that of the driving circuit.

Anyway, Hammer and Wage Slave, thanks for keeping me busy this Sunday with these mundane things. It's nice to refresh knowledge now and then.

I am off to bed. Have to get up early tomorrow.

Edit: just before posting, I notice that I was wrong about the bleeding resistor. OK, so the capacitor is then apparently transparent to the AC signal in an open circuit. I still don't get it, because no current should flow through the capacitor, because of the high impedance of your Voltmeter. Anyway, I still maintain that the voltage drop is over the capacitor when the circuit is connected. Otherwise, there would be no point of having the capacitor there. It is not there for smoothing, because it is a high-pass filter, not a low-pass filter in this configuration in the circuit.

[Wage Slave]

Yes. A lot of fun for 100 Yen that's for sure. Thanks from me to you and Hammer too for the discussion. I've seen capacitative dropping referred to before but hadn't understood it at all. I still don't completely but we are getting there. The good thing about this exercise is that it forces us to go right back to basic fundamentals at component level - and that is useful sometimes.

Edit to add:

Speaking of fundamentals. Ohms law tells us that v = I x R right? So suppose we have a fully charged 10 Volt battery which can supply 100 milliamps, and an incandescent bulb that has a resistance of 100 ohms. We connect them together and we get 10V across the bulb because 0.1 x 100 = 10. Suppose the battery was semi discharged and now could only supply 10 volts at 50 milliamps. Now we would only get 5V across the bulb because 0.05 x 100 = 5.

That's how it works I think. If you limit the current available to low levels, you drop the voltage when a load is applied. That means of course that your circuit has to be matched carefully to the load, and the supply and the load need to be fairly stable. And the user can't be allowed to touch any part of the circuit because it could potentially become directly connected to the mains. However, in the narrow case of a LED bulb in a first world country which doesn't demand dimming ability all those conditions are met so the design has potential because it is so simple, efficient and cheap, cheap, cheap.

[Yokohammer]

Yeah, thanks guys. That was fun. Although I'm sure the more "normal" forum members won't agree.

I thought I was beyond getting excited about resistors and capacitors and stuff, but I guess once a geek ...

I might have to get out my scope and other test gear and stare at it for a while. I fact, I'm sure I have enough parts around to replicate that circuit, so I could plot the output voltage vs. frequency to clear up that point as well.

I did a little digging and learned that caps are indeed used for AC current limiting in some applications (although I've never used them for that myself ... other than serving as a human component in a "test circuit" ... ouch). I'm still not sure about the designer's intent in this particular case though, or even if the designer had any intent other than to finish the job and get down the mah-jongg parlour as quickly as possible. That bothers me a little ... although I'm not exactly sure why it should. There are bigger fish to fry.

Anyway, for now it's probably better to concentrate on the daily grind. For a while at least.

[matsuki]

Wow...you guys totally out nerded me. (but I have a lil more confidence in my step knowing I'm not the only FG male here getting excited over this stuff)

On topic but still finding lots of those hand dryers in Tokyo (especially on the Seibu line) restrooms covered up with paper and duct tape that reads something like "not in use, setsuden." while they haven't done jack shit about any of their lighting, particularly the stuff that is lit 24/7

You wash your car !?

When we switched the whip the new one annoyed me to no end shining like an oiled wrestler, lucky some mudding and rain took care of that. And since the last typhoon/ flooded street crossing I even got rust drooling on the alloy wheel coming from the central bolt. I'd buy some fake mudsplatter vinyl if it was available...

I thought you decided against the Juke? (though i heard they released a turbo model??)

[Coligny]

After Ghosn fired Carlos Tavares from Renault two month ago, you won't find me anywhere near a Nissan or Datsun...

(UD trucks still ok as they are just a subsidiary of Renault Truck/Volvo.)

[matsuki]

After Ghosn fired Carlos Tavares from Renault two month ago, you won't find me anywhere near a Nissan or Datsun...

(UD trucks still ok as they are just a subsidiary of Renault Truck/Volvo.)

Sooo...what did you buy?

[Wage Slave]

Bloody hell. It sounds like Daiso are actually the good guys! I hear that in the UK and Ireland they are selling bulbs with no rectification at all. Just the capacitor dropper, a fusible resistor and two LEDs connected in inverse parallel. Or if a diode and small electrolytic is your fancy then just one diode giving half wave rectification and a smoothing cap to keep the LED lit during the "missing" half of the wave.

Apart from the near zero power factor, people who know more than me are perfectly relaxed about this. It's regarded as cheap, highly efficient and effective. The power factor thing is dismissed because they use so little power their effect on the network is trivial.

[Coligny]

After Ghosn fired Carlos Tavares from Renault two month ago, you won't find me anywhere near a Nissan or Datsun...

(UD trucks still ok as they are just a subsidiary of Renault Truck/Volvo.)

Sooo...what did you buy?

Delica D:5 Diesel, we called it Meatball. The dealership is a fuckin nightmare. No way to switch the 18" alloy/street tires with 16" steeler, they don't have OEM towbar or bullbar. The secondary deep discharge battery is under the chassis... Awesome for water crossing (/not). And there is way too much pseudo chrome for my taste.
Meanwhile... The onboard computer is a masterpiece of ingenuity. He plays music from my iphone still in my pocket over bluetooth, He turns the steering lights on by himself when you use the shieldwipers... Who actually works... The heater is hot, cooling is cold... The exact opposite of the Note (at least the first 30 minutes of each ride in the Note) The engine have a hard plastic gravel undershield, the fuel tanks have a thick anti puncture metal shield. The throttle react always the same way... There is even a little light on the dash to tell me if the headlights are on, and the fuel gauge actually reflect the amount of fuel in the tank. And on and on...

[Russell]

Bloody hell. It sounds like Daiso are actually the good guys! I hear that in the UK and Ireland they are selling bulbs with no rectification at all. Just the capacitor dropper, a fusible resistor and two LEDs connected in inverse parallel. Or if a diode and small electrolytic is your fancy then just one diode giving half wave rectification and a smoothing cap to keep the LED lit during the "missing" half of the wave.

Apart from the near zero power factor, people who know more than me are perfectly relaxed about this. It's regarded as cheap, highly efficient and effective. The power factor thing is dismissed because they use so little power their effect on the network is trivial.

Yep, I actually wanted to propose a solution like this today, but was very busy (just home). I wondered whether the two diodes connected in reverse will be the cheapest solution, since a white LED is more expensive than the four diodes for the bridge (I guess). Didn't think about putting a smoothing capacitor in it, though. Very smart! They probably put it parallel with the LED?

[yanpa]

There is even a little light on the dash to tell me if the headlights are on, and the fuel gauge actually reflect the amount of fuel in the tank. And on and on...

Weren't those like standard features of cars like 20 years ago? (Disclaimer: I haven't driven much since then, so things may have changed and for all I know the dashboard has been replaced with an app, but mah mama's Citroe^n Visa sure had them).

[Coligny]

There is even a little light on the dash to tell me if the headlights are on, and the fuel gauge actually reflect the amount of fuel in the tank. And on and on...

Weren't those like standard features of cars like 20 years ago? (Disclaimer: I haven't driven much since then, so things may have changed and for all I know the dashboard has been replaced with an app, but mah mama's Citroe^n Visa sure had them).

D00d... Not on a cheap Nissan... And those are just the user-facing quirks.
From an engineering standpoint... It's... An embarrassment...


One example, the front subframe is tied to the bathtube chassis with 2 bolts on the left, but only one on the right to make place for the CVT gear box.
It's a car whose engine have no torque whatsoever but manage to have torquesteer issue like a 300bhp sportscar. Throttle on the car turn one way, throttle off the car turn the other way, (assymetric driveshafts). The left driveshaft out of the gearbox is really long, split in two with a rubber coupling, but the long part out of the gearbox is left floating up to the section reaching to the front wheel.
The service manual warn to NOT TURN THE STEERING WHEEL while stationary to avoid the risk of the steering assist electric motor catching fire.
The ECU check for brake failure by monitoring the electric load on the braking lights and reduce the throttle acceleration in case of fault. But do not trigger any warning light or buzzer to warn the driver. The plastic headlight cover is known to melt if you don't turn off the headlight in slow traffic. The fuel door and hood opening trigger are side by side with a label printed facing the floor...
Replacing a front fog light bulb require removing the wheel and taking appart a good portion of the in fender mudshield. Replacing the rear number plate light require taking appart most of the trunk door trim, for the third brake light you have to peel away some trim vinyl. For the rear brake/turn/backup bulb replacement the manual just tell you to go back to your dealership...

[Yokohammer]

Delica D:5 Diesel, we called it Meatball.

You bought a D:5 and didn't tell me?!

I am deeply hurt ...

You can make up for it by posting pics.

[matsuki]

After Ghosn fired Carlos Tavares from Renault two month ago, you won't find me anywhere near a Nissan or Datsun...

(UD trucks still ok as they are just a subsidiary of Renault Truck/Volvo.)

Sooo...what did you buy?

Delica D:5 Diesel, we called it Meatball. The dealership is a fuckin nightmare. No way to switch the 18" alloy/street tires with 16" steeler, they don't have OEM towbar or bullbar. The secondary deep discharge battery is under the chassis... Awesome for water crossing (/not). And there is way too much pseudo chrome for my taste.
Meanwhile... The onboard computer is a masterpiece of ingenuity. He plays music from my iphone still in my pocket over bluetooth, He turns the steering lights on by himself when you use the shieldwipers... Who actually works... The heater is hot, cooling is cold... The exact opposite of the Note (at least the first 30 minutes of each ride in the Note) The engine have a hard plastic gravel undershield, the fuel tanks have a thick anti puncture metal shield. The throttle react always the same way... There is even a little light on the dash to tell me if the headlights are on, and the fuel gauge actually reflect the amount of fuel in the tank. And on and on...

I actually like these things, sad to hear the secondary battery is under the chassis though. Fucking Japanese dealership, car is "made to order" (you literally have to wait) yet you aren't able to pick and choose options as basic as wheels? I will note that I'm still getting calls from Honda dealerships from when I was looking at N-BOX's....some of them seem willing to bend to my demands a few months later.

Well, since you actually bought it, I guess you can go through the hassle of auctioning off the wheels and getting something more your taste...and isn't there aftermarket support for the towbar and bullbar?

[Coligny]

Towbar is not too difficult. The bullbar meanwhile, lots available for gasoline engine, not sur yet if they can be fitted on the diesel version.

[matsuki]

Towbar is not too difficult. The bullbar meanwhile, lots available for gasoline engine, not sur yet if they can be fitted on the diesel version.

I guess with the battery down there, they aren't offering a snorkle package?

[Coligny]

Nope... I asked...

But all the deep discharge battery connectors are waterproofed starting with the primary positive plug.
The only worry I had was for typhoon 24 (I think) with more than 15 cm of water in the streets the aircon led started blinking and disengaged until I got feet dry. When going back to the parking I had to push away some floating debris in front of the entrance bending out from the side sliding door...
There is a huge design quirk though, when going through floods a shitload of water flowback onto the hood and windshield. Can't see anything... It's from the wheel arches because the air intake don't get flooded so luckily no engine choking.

The good thing with Delicas in the user community australia/Nz/Japan which guarante a shitload of aftermarket parts and specialized shops.

[matsuki]

Nope... I asked...

But all the deep discharge battery connectors are waterproofed starting with the primary positive plug.
The only worry I had was for typhoon 24 (I think) with more than 15 cm of water in the streets the aircon led started blinking and disengaged until I got feet dry. When going back to the parking I had to push away some floating debris in front of the entrance bending out from the side sliding door...
There is a huge design quirk though, when going through floods a shitload of water flowback onto the hood and windshield. Can't see anything... It's from the wheel arches because the air intake don't get flooded so luckily no engine choking.

The good thing with Delicas in the user community australia/Nz/Japan which guarante a shitload of aftermarket parts and specialized shops.

...and being diesel, you are running it on filtered Kentakii oil?

[Coligny]

Not yet... But tempted...
Luckily there is no AdBlue bullshit...
(Or bullpiss to be precise... Asked the dealership aboot that... Then had to explain them what adblue was... Must have sounded like a looney...)(more than usual i mean)