China calls PM Abe & Co., 'Lord Voldemort'

[Taro Toporific]

Pot, meet Kettle...

Japan risks threat to global peace by rekindling militaristic spirit of Second World War, senior Chinese official warns
--Liu Xiaoming, China’s ambassador to London, launches a strong criticism of the Japanese prime minister, Shinzo Abe, accusing him of deliberately raising tensions in Asia and putting the world on a “perilous path”--
Telegraph.co.uk | 01 Jan 2014
...Mr Liu warns that under Mr Abe, Japan is seeking to rewrite the history of its role in the war and restore its status as an aggressive military power...
...In unusually vivid language, Mr Liu even compares modern Japan to Lord Voldemort, the villain of the Harry Potter stories who eventually “dies hard”. The ambassador appealed to Britain to side with China against Japan in the escalating row between Beijing and Tokyo...more...

Lord-Abe.jpg

[Coligny]

Pot.. Kettle... (...)

Got a solution right here:

image.jpg

[Mike Oxlong]

Germany urges Japan to deal honestly with WWII past

Germany said it tried to deal “honestly” with its World War II past and urged Japan to do the same after Prime Minister Shinzo Abe’s visit to a controversial war shrine.

“I do not wish to comment on questions related to Japanese domestic politics,” Chancellor Angela Merkel’s spokesman Steffen Seibert told reporters Monday when asked about the surprise Yasukuni shrine visit which enraged China and South Korea.

“But in general, all nations must honestly live up to their role in the horrible events of the 20th century. Only on the basis of this honest accounting is it possible to build a future with former foes. This is a conviction Germany takes to heart and which in my opinion applies to all states.”

Abe sparked anger in China and South Korea last week by visiting the Tokyo shrine, which honors Japan’s war dead, including several high-level officials executed for war crimes after World War II, and serves as a reminder of Japan’s wartime aggression.

The visit came at a time when Japan’s ties with China have turned particularly sour over a territorial dispute regarding islands in the East China Sea.

Foreign ministry spokesman Martin Schaefer added that Berlin was following the “tensions in the East China Sea with some concern and very closely”.

“In our view it would be helpful if all sides strived for restraint and moderation and jointly sought a diplomatic solution for running conflicts and, in particular, avoided unilateral steps that could heighten the tensions in the region.”

Germany takes pride in what it sees as its own earnest effort to atone for its militaristic past and the murder of six million European Jews in the Holocaust, although critics say it still has more to do.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/poli ... -wwii-past

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Germany can't really talk...it may have de-Nazified, but it has never come to terms with how widely accepted Nazism was among the general populace. That puts it on a par with Japan despite its token efforts to independently pursue alleged war criminals. Germans like to forget how much they adored der Fuhrer and how far they were willing to go for him. It's easy for them to say the Japanese should be more apologetic because it draws the spotlight from German misdeeds.

[Russell]

Germany can't really talk...it may have de-Nazified, but it has never come to terms with how widely accepted Nazism was among the general populace. That puts it on a par with Japan despite its token efforts to independently pursue alleged war criminals. Germans like to forget how much they adored der Fuhrer and how far they were willing to go for him. It's easy for them to say the Japanese should be more apologetic because it draws the spotlight from German misdeeds.

Your argument is beyond the point. This is about how Germany has behaved after the war, not during the war.

There is a marked difference between Germany and Japan in dealing with the war. As a result, Germany's relationship with its neighbors is good. There is none of the shenanigans that Japan experiences with the Koreas and China. That may be partly due to the type of neighbors, but it cannot be denied that Germany has behaved in a very different way than Japan, and is now reaping the benefits of good relations with other nations.

Your comment is typically of the Anglo-Saxon world, which has apparently not find a way to come to terms with the war. It has been said (in UK press) that Germany has coped better with losing the war than Britain has coped with winning it.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Germany can't really talk...it may have de-Nazified, but it has never come to terms with how widely accepted Nazism was among the general populace. That puts it on a par with Japan despite its token efforts to independently pursue alleged war criminals. Germans like to forget how much they adored der Fuhrer and how far they were willing to go for him. It's easy for them to say the Japanese should be more apologetic because it draws the spotlight from German misdeeds.

Your argument is beyond the point. This is about how Germany has behaved after the war, not during the war.

There is a marked difference between Germany and Japan in dealing with the war. As a result, Germany's relationship with its neighbors is good. There is none of the shenanigans that Japan experiences with the Koreas and China. That may be partly due to the type of neighbors, but it cannot be denied that Germany has behaved in a very different way than Japan, and is now reaping the benefits of good relations with other nations.

Your comment is typically of the Anglo-Saxon world, which has apparently not find a way to come to terms with the war. It has been said (in UK press) that Germany has coped better with losing the war than Britain has coped with winning it.

I stand by my comment. Not everybody can live in an ivory tower and some must live closer to the ground where reality comes into greater play than in academia.
I will concede that Germany made a token effort to independently pursue justice for some alleged war criminals, which is something Japan has never done. But it was only a cosmetic effort and it has not addressed how the general population adored Adolph Hitler and Nazism. Germans see the Third Reich as a Nazi problem, not as a German problem. But Germans have a long history of pogroms and genocide. If some people in adjacent countries have been able to sufficiently conceal their fear of Germany by feigning friendship I admire them. But I think deep down, not many countries can truly trust Germany. And no country should trust the British of Merkins.

[torasan]

and the Chinese commie dictators are now calling Abe a Nazi, they used that word now in public, a Nazi! so it's Nazis vs Nazis now in Asia?

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

As an addendum to my earlier post, I'd like to make clear that by no means do I argue with the assertion that Japan needs to do more to atone for wartime behavior (I also believe the Allies should do the same, but that's another story...). What I do object to is a German saying it. Germans should STFU and continue to silently make amends with their deeds for the tens of millions of people who died for their greed.

[matsuki]

That is pretty bold of Germany but hey, I welcome any condemation of the current stance of Japan regarding WWII as a war of liberation where Japan was defeated and victimized. That being said, Japan, China, and Korea all have really biased and narrow/fucked views of WWII in their history books...until that changes, none of the 3 cuntries are going to raise a tolerant and understanding generation with a real understanding of what went on in WWII.

While I get the disassociation point SDH is trying to make here, I have to say I've never met a German who had anything but sadness and disappointment, and shame to express about their cuntry during WWII. I have never got the impression from individuals that they disassociated themselves with Nazis. Bring up WWII with most Japanese and you get the whole spectrum but most often you hear the "we were trying to liberate asia!" responses to Japan's actions, mixed with "The US knew Pearl Harbor would be bombed and let it happen to join the war!" and followed by a bunch of horrible details about Japanese victims of US Atomic/Fire bombings. China teaches about all the Japanese atrocities and that the "capitalism caused war" was won by Red USSR and China. Nazi's? What's a Nazi? Korea teaches about all the Japanese atrocities and the Korean Independence movement. Nazi's? That must have been another war?

[Yokohammer]

That is pretty bold of Germany but hey, I welcome any condemation of the current stance of Japan regarding WWII as a war of liberation where Japan was defeated and victimized. That being said, Japan, China, and Korea all have really biased and narrow/fucked views of WWII in their history books...until that changes, none of the 3 cuntries are going to raise a tolerant and understanding generation with a real understanding of what went on in WWII

Choko is making sense ...

Must be the temple life.

Now if we can just get Coligny shipped off to a temple somewhere we might be able to have proper conversations around here.

[Russell]

Now if we can just get Coligny shipped off to a temple somewhere we might be able to have proper conversations around here.

Are you sure?

[yanpa]

I stand by my comment. Not everybody can live in an ivory tower and some must live closer to the ground where reality comes into greater play than in academia.

Disclaimer: I lived in Germany for 15 years, some of that time in academia (horrible reality-divorced place), but mostly quite close to the ground.

I will concede that Germany made a token effort to independently pursue justice for some alleged war criminals, which is something Japan has never done. But it was only a cosmetic effort and it has not addressed how the general population adored Adolph Hitler and Nazism. Germans see the Third Reich as a Nazi problem, not as a German problem.

If it was 1961 right now I'd agree with you. However now... I wouldn't claim Germany and Germans have somehow transformed themselves into perfect angels, but as a country it's done a pretty good job of coming to terms with its pasts (including its Communist one). The contrast with Japan is huge. Mind you I'm a bit surprised by that spokesdude's comments, sounds very Generation Y.

But Germans have a long history of pogroms and genocide.

And who doesn't? Look far back enough in the history of most countries and you find some pretty nasty stuff. I don't subscribe to the belief common in some quarters that Germans are somehow more susceptible to brutal dictatorships, such is my faith in humanity I'm pretty sure any country could end up like that given the wrong circumstances.

[yanpa]

I will concede that Germany made a token effort to independently pursue justice for some alleged war criminals

Yeah, they may have made the effort to go after the odd alleged war criminal every now and then... Can't see them bothering 69 years after the end of the war though...

Former Nazi guard goes on trial for murder of resistance fighter

A 92-year-old former member of the Nazi party went on trial Monday in Germany — 69 years after he allegedly shot a Dutch resistance fighter in the back at the end of World War II.

Siert Bruins, who served with the Nazi Waffen-SS, appeared in court in the western city of Hagen with a walker and was reportedly alert as the proceedings began, the AP reports.
(...)
German federal prosecutors are also expected to announce this week that they are recommending the pursuit of charges against 40 former Auschwitz guards.

source

[Russell]

Thanks Yanpa for your comment. I was actually looking forward to it, since you are British (as far as I remember) and have lived in Germany for quite some time, so that makes for a balanced view.

I completely agree with your opinions above about Germany.

[yanpa]

Your comment is typically of the Anglo-Saxon world, which has apparently not find a way to come to terms with the war. It has been said (in UK press) that Germany has coped better with losing the war than Britain has coped with winning it.

+1 from a bona-fide Anglo-Saxon.

[torasan]

RELATED: from the UK EConomist: A Chinese spokesman accused Mr Abe of “beautifying aggression”, and called the war criminals remembered at Yasukuni “the Nazis of Asia”.

[torasan]

and the Chinese commie dictators are now calling Abe a Nazi, they used that word now in public, a Nazi! so it's Nazis vs Nazis now in Asia?

QUOTE HERE - A Chinese spokesman accused Mr Abe of “beautifying aggression”, and called the war criminals remembered at Yasukuni “the Nazis of Asia”.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

I stand by my comment. Not everybody can live in an ivory tower and some must live closer to the ground where reality comes into greater play than in academia.

Disclaimer: I lived in Germany for 15 years, some of that time in academia (horrible reality-divorced place), but mostly quite close to the ground.

And, therefore, cannot provide a truly balanced opinion, just as Russell can't, coming from a borderline collaborationist cuntry.

I'm not disputing that Germany may be more cosmetically contrite than Japan in pretending to atone for losing World War II...I'm arguing that Germany should do so -- and do so with concrete actions (and that doesn't just mean bowing down in front of Jews or Slavs) -- as it bears responsibility for the deaths of tens of millions of people, at least 6 million of whom died as the direct result of a state genocide policy enacted by a popularly elected and supported government. I also argue that Germany does not bear this burden...it blames the amorphous body of "the Nazis," while conveniently ignoring the fact it was actually "the Germans."

Russell may well be correct in pointing out that Germany is a good neighbor...I don't dispute the possibility (but can't help feeling an enormous fear factor involved). I simply argue that acting in such manner is the least it can do.

As for saying that any cuntry has dirty hands, it is a supercilious argument. But, I fear you might be right in arguing that any cuntry presented with the wrong circumstances could end up like Germany in the first half of the 20th century. I wonder, though, how many would manipulate themselves into such a situation as the Germans did when they put Adolf Hitler into power because he roused their bloodlust?

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Your comment is typically of the Anglo-Saxon world, which has apparently not find a way to come to terms with the war. It has been said (in UK press) that Germany has coped better with losing the war than Britain has coped with winning it.

Are you suggesting I should take the approach of the Dutch-speaking world and care only about a tiny sliver of the population while condemning our darkies to third-class citizenry? Or should I be thinking of the part that rolled over in hours and decided collaborating with the Nazis was a better approach?

[IparryU]

So to cut the shit, both countries still have much more work to do and Japan is much further behind compared to Germany.

The allies also need to get their heads out of their asses, but that needs its own thread if going to be discussed... So much more issues due to their victory and choice of "how the war really went down".

In recent times, Japan is backpedaling towards its "Nazi like" tendencies and needs to fix it before they aggravate China/S. Korea anymore.

Japan needs to stop doing its Yasukuni trips to ease tension in Asia.

Everyone else needs to fix their own shit (America has so much more on their list than anyone else) and lead by example and not their desires of what other countries should do. In layman's, quit being backseat drivers.



Sent from my SC-03E using Tapatalk

[Coligny]

And, therefore, cannot provide a truly balanced opinion, just as Russell can't, coming from a borderline collaborationist cuntry.

it blames the amorphous body of "the Nazis," while conveniently ignoring the fact it was actually "the Germans."

Because not all Germans were Nazis... even some quite at the top... Like not all French were collabos...

I'm not disputing that Germany may be more cosmetically contrite than Japan in pretending to atone for losing World War II...

Whatev'

3107139_000-par7648556.jpg

If you want a real target, go instead asking the Swiss to give back the Jew's gold they hoarded since the war...

[yanpa]

I stand by my comment. Not everybody can live in an ivory tower and some must live closer to the ground where reality comes into greater play than in academia.

Disclaimer: I lived in Germany for 15 years, some of that time in academia (horrible reality-divorced place), but mostly quite close to the ground.

And, therefore, cannot provide a truly balanced opinion, just as Russell can't, coming from a borderline collaborationist cuntry.

So how informed is your opinion then? You seem such an expert on Germany.

[yanpa]

I'm not disputing that Germany may be more cosmetically contrite than Japan in pretending to atone for losing World War II...I'm arguing that Germany should do so -- and do so with concrete actions (and that doesn't just mean bowing down in front of Jews or Slavs) -- as it bears responsibility for the deaths of tens of millions of people, at least 6 million of whom died as the direct result of a state genocide policy

So what haven't they done, and what you you like to see them do?

enacted by a popularly elected and supported government. I also argue that Germany does not bear this burden...it blames the amorphous body of "the Nazis," while conveniently ignoring the fact it was actually "the Germans."

Citations please.

[Coligny]

One point that is overlooked is the fact that the whole "European Union" thing, which was first CECA then CEE has been done to avoid any more armed conflict between european nations. The French-German Brigade started in 87 and extended into the wider Eurocorps being quite a statement in this direction. Add to this the fact that Germany fill a huge financial duty toward the running cost of all things european, maybe you can then consider that they put their money were their mouth as far as peace is concerned and by extention, making amend of the previous war mongering behaviour. Which was partially due to the excess asked in repaiment after their defeat in WWI. (The idiotic "they lost, make them pay through the nose" while being an excellent populist tool, just don't work that well compared to a peacefull reconstruction of the defeated countries economy)

[Wage Slave]

Versailles, esp the land grabbing, contributed that's for sure.

FWIW, I find the UK far more overtly militarised and far more prone to glamourising war than Japan or Germany. No County Fair is complete without a Tank or Multiple Rocket Launcher proudly on display.

Seriously, the last fair I went to had a MRL and they were encouraging small boys to climb up and explore it.

[Tsuru]

And, therefore, cannot provide a truly balanced opinion, just as Russell can't, coming from a borderline collaborationist cuntry.

it blames the amorphous body of "the Nazis," while conveniently ignoring the fact it was actually "the Germans."

Because not all Germans were Nazis... even some quite at the top... Like not all French were collabos...

I'm not disputing that Germany may be more cosmetically contrite than Japan in pretending to atone for losing World War II...

Whatev'

3107139_000-par7648556.jpg

If you want a real target, go instead asking the Swiss to give back the Jew's gold they hoarded since the war...

I think you forgot the most important picture:



Compare that to the antics of Abe, Koizumi and countless other powerful figures in Japan and you can't deny there is a difference. No matter how many Yen or Deutschmarks have been paid in damages and retribution, this is what people see and remember.

Your comment is typically of the Anglo-Saxon world, which has apparently not find a way to come to terms with the war. It has been said (in UK press) that Germany has coped better with losing the war than Britain has coped with winning it.

Are you suggesting I should take the approach of the Dutch-speaking world and care only about a tiny sliver of the population while condemning our darkies to third-class citizenry? Or should I be thinking of the part that rolled over in hours and decided collaborating with the Nazis was a better approach?

I was going to type up a much longer reply, but this about sums it up: Go fuck yourself (and read what actually happened in 1940 before spouting off)

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Your comment is typically of the Anglo-Saxon world, which has apparently not find a way to come to terms with the war. It has been said (in UK press) that Germany has coped better with losing the war than Britain has coped with winning it.

Are you suggesting I should take the approach of the Dutch-speaking world and care only about a tiny sliver of the population while condemning our darkies to third-class citizenry? Or should I be thinking of the part that rolled over in hours and decided collaborating with the Nazis was a better approach?

I was going to type up a much longer reply, but this about sums it up: Go fuck yourself (and read what actually happened in 1940 before spouting off)

I stand corrected....they rolled over in "under a week" and not "hours."

Given Europeans' history, I'm not surprised there are so many of you prepared to forgive Germany because it has acted responsibly for a few decades. I condone it, but feel it should continue making silent restitution to atone for what it cost the world in World War II. Yes, it has been influential in coordinating Europe in the postwar period, but much of that has been self-serving.
Germany should, for instance, spearhead a European-wide effort to make amends to Africa for raping and pillaging it. Instead, it keeps it tied down in debt, abets corruption and perpetuates lack of development in the area. It should take a far more proactive humanitarian approach. Europeans may find it easy to forgive a cuntry whose rapacious greed (shared by leaders and a vast proportion of the populace) directly led to the deaths of tens of millions of people, even if most of these were Jews and gypsies and other untermensch. Some in other countries are slightly more averse to taking the lives of people and less understanding after it has been done so for avaricious reasons.

[Tsuru]

I condone it

Why that's very kind of you. Taking your point to heart I think we should also be demanding reparations from France for Napoleon's invasion too, or from Spain and Austria for their respective occupations, or perhaps even from Italy for the part of the country that used to be a subject of the Roman empire. An American (I hope you can forgive me for assuming you're an American judging from your snotty and condescending tone regarding things European) telling us we should stop treating our citizens of color like "third class citizens". I think a bit of my brain broke when I read that. Then again, I am missing the part where you take credit for something you yourself had absolutely no part in: ending the war with one hand while you chewed gum with the other. Or something like that.

Your line of reasoning is eerily similar to the Chinese claims to the Senkakus. Now that the circle is complete: when it comes to the differences in the way Japan and Germany have handled their history, are you being deliberately thick or just by happy accident?

[Coligny]

I think you forgot the most important picture:

Kohl and Mitterrand holding hands in Douaumont strike closer to home...

Since it's literally home... (The ossuary of Douaumont is a stone throw from Verdun and often just called the ossuary of Verdun)

[yanpa]

An American (I hope you can forgive me for assuming you're an American judging from your snotty and condescending tone regarding things European) telling us we should stop treating our citizens of color like "third class citizens".

For the record, SDH is Australian and otherwise a fine chap, I'm just not sure why he has such a bee in his butt about Germany (and if my memory is correct his primary exposure to all things German involve exposure to German scat porn at an early age and second-hand hearsay from an acquaintance who talked to a guy in a pub in Germany).