Clearing land

[matsuki]

A seekret cursed indian burial ground ?

Although this was my first choice, I decided on building a big ass log cabin besso....but need to reclaim the land back from the jungle before I can actually build anything. The nice thing is the land is not zoned so almost no restrictions/permits/etc.

[Wage Slave]

A seekret cursed indian burial ground ?

Although this was my first choice, I decided on building a big ass log cabin besso....but need to reclaim the land back from the jungle before I can actually build anything. The nice thing is the land is not zoned so almost no restrictions/permits/etc.

How about utilities esp mains water? Or will it be self sufficient?

[matsuki]

Looking into that now...the elec plan is to cover the south facing roof with solar panels and there are lec lines right in front of the property so getting on grid (and selling back to them) should be relatively easy, gas we're trying to avoid dealing with at all (will have a wood burning fireplace or masonry stove) and water we're trying to find out how feasible just using a well will be. As to sewage, we're looking into what options we have as I highly doubt there is anything available in the immediate area.

[Wage Slave]

Looking into that now...the elec plan is to cover the south facing roof with solar panels and there are lec lines right in front of the property so getting on grid (and selling back to them) should be relatively easy, gas we're trying to avoid dealing with at all (will have a wood burning fireplace or masonry stove) and water we're trying to find out how feasible just using a well will be. As to sewage, we're looking into what options we have as I highly doubt there is anything available in the immediate area.

A septic tank then most likely. They work perfectly well after all. A well makes sense too. Personally I am not yet convinced of the economic case for solar power - it all rather assumes that the elec companies don't manage to persuade some government or other that the deal needs to be dramatically reshaped. And they would dearly love to, with some decent cause - especially since their fiscal and capacity planning has been thrown into disarray.

What would you use the place for? Just a weekend retreat?

[matsuki]

Looking into that now...the elec plan is to cover the south facing roof with solar panels and there are lec lines right in front of the property so getting on grid (and selling back to them) should be relatively easy, gas we're trying to avoid dealing with at all (will have a wood burning fireplace or masonry stove) and water we're trying to find out how feasible just using a well will be. As to sewage, we're looking into what options we have as I highly doubt there is anything available in the immediate area.

A septic tank then most likely. They work perfectly well after all. A well makes sense too. Personally I am not yet convinced of the economic case for solar power - it all rather assumes that the elec companies don't manage to persuade some government or other that the deal needs to be dramatically reshaped. And they would dearly love to, with some decent cause - especially since their fiscal and capacity planning has been thrown into disarray.

What would you use the place for? Just a weekend retreat?

Probably, but with no restrictions, I could have an outhhouse for all they care.

Not enough wind for for wind power up there but my other idea is a small watermill type generator as there are plenty of creeks to tap into. As far as solar goes, I haven't really set a time table as the tech is getting better all the time...but even at the current shit level output panels they have, they pay for themselves in about 8 years if you consider how expensive elec is here.

[Wage Slave]

Not enough wind for for wind power up there but my other idea is a small watermill type generator as there are plenty of creeks to tap into. As far as solar goes, I haven't really set a time table as the tech is getting better all the time...but even at the current shit level output panels they have, they pay for themselves in about 8 years if you consider how expensive elec is here.

They do indeed (or about 12 the last time I looked at it) but it is not a real market price with a willing buyer. If the elec companies could refuse to buy at all, they would at just about any price. They have to run their power stations anyway to cover the daily peak at the end of the working day and the power produced by small solar just creates all sorts of phasing and distribution problems. They have been forced to buy at an inflated price by Govt green policy. It worries me that that can change especially with the backing away from Kyoto targets and the nuclear capacity a dead weight on their bottom lines.

[Russell]

Your drinking water, can't you just tap it from that big white pipe there next to the stairs?!?

Just thinkin'...

[wagyl]

Your drinking water, can't you just tap it from that big white pipe there next to the stairs?!?

Just thinkin'...

If he's doing that, he may as well run his small scale hydro plant off that too. There should be plenty of head and flow for all his power needs.

On a more serious note:

plenty of creeks to tap into.

I'm assuming you own the land on both banks of the creeks. Otherwise you are inviting trouble. Once again, if there is sufficient head and flow and sufficient quality and you are satisfied that upstream uses will not be a problem in the long term (and there are no issues with downstream water use rights), it may be worth using that as drinking water, so that you don't have to use any of your hard earned electricity pumping from a well. Or worry about your septic system affecting the well water.

I agree that small scale wind generation is much much more trouble than it is worth, unless you have access to some of the high quality kit used out on the prairies before the rural electrification scheme in the thirties. And prairie breezes.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the most convenient solution will be to hook up to the power lines running along the road. If the self sufficiency thing is a hobby then that is OK but don't expect miracles.

LP Gas bottles are pretty damn convenient and are an incredibly dense fuels source, but I agree that regulations here for testing bottles periodically end up making it a costlier and less convenient option than it first looks.

[matsuki]

Not enough wind for for wind power up there but my other idea is a small watermill type generator as there are plenty of creeks to tap into. As far as solar goes, I haven't really set a time table as the tech is getting better all the time...but even at the current shit level output panels they have, they pay for themselves in about 8 years if you consider how expensive elec is here.

They do indeed (or about 12 the last time I looked at it) but it is not a real market price with a willing buyer. If the elec companies could refuse to buy at all, they would at just about any price. They have to run their power stations anyway to cover the daily peak at the end of the working day and the power produced by small solar just creates all sorts of phasing and distribution problems. They have been forced to buy at an inflated price by Govt green policy. It worries me that that can change especially with the backing away from Kyoto targets and the nuclear capacity a dead weight on their bottom lines.

What is the price they're currently forced to buy at? (I have only begin to research this stuff here but have several friends who have eliminated their power bills and/or are making money off their solar setups)

On a more serious note:

plenty of creeks to tap into.

I'm assuming you own the land on both banks of the creeks. Otherwise you are inviting trouble. Once again, if there is sufficient head and flow and sufficient quality and you are satisfied that upstream uses will not be a problem in the long term (and there are no issues with downstream water use rights), it may be worth using that as drinking water, so that you don't have to use any of your hard earned electricity pumping from a well. Or worry about your septic system affecting the well water.

I agree that small scale wind generation is much much more trouble than it is worth, unless you have access to some of the high quality kit used out on the prairies before the rural electrification scheme in the thirties. And prairie breezes.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the most convenient solution will be to hook up to the power lines running along the road. If the self sufficiency thing is a hobby then that is OK but don't expect miracles.

LP Gas bottles are pretty damn convenient and are an incredibly dense fuels source, but I agree that regulations here for testing bottles periodically end up making it a costlier and less convenient option than it first looks.

Water - yeah, there are two small creeks flowing through the land. We got land on all four banks. I have no idea what the quality of the water is though. There was mining in the area in the past so no idea what kind of minerals and shit are in the water now. Judging by Google Earth...there appears to be a larger creek/river? flowing on top of the mountain (which is where I suspect that pipe is sourcing it's flow from...though it's placement in the middle of nowhere is really odd) that I can probably "encourage" using a shovel and whatever is there naturally to give me some more flow. I really need to get up there early one of these days and follow the creek uphill to the source. The is no real downstream to deal with...the water comes off my land and gets directed to the river across the street.

Wind - I'm considering it for the temple and some beachfront land we have...both lack for decent sun but the wind is crazy more often than not.

Gas....bottle testing, running lines, separate LP appliances, etc. Just seems more trouble than it's worth. (and it's one less bill to deal with) Burning wood with supplemental Aircon/Heater for heating and going elec for water heating and cooking isn't too unrealistic for a vacation home. Can always opt for Kerosene stoves as well if really needed.

[wagyl]

Solar generation purchase prices: I don't know the current figure but google may well be your friend there.

But I will say, in my personal view, direct from the source (i.e. pulled directly out of my arse) I predict that current prices will soon be regulated out of existence. I have seen eco schemes in other countries be unilaterally renegotiated, to much hue and cry from those who invested on the basis that certain prices were guaranteed for a specified period of time, but once the scheme was oversubscribed the government was more than happy to move the goalposts. I don't see that Japan will be any different.

In extensive tours over the backroads of various regions of this country over the last few months, I have seen increasing evidence of agricultural land being turned over to photovoltaic arrays. Don't bother about non-productive roof area, they are going for otherwise productive land. Rumour has it that much of the investment is coming from China, but that may just be standard Japanese "the Chinese are the bogeyman" talk. But it is showing all the signs of distinctly skewed decision making resulting form an artificially propped up market price. Something is going to give, and I don't think it will be long before it does. And I think the victim is going to be the buy price for eco power.

By all means go for capacity that you will use yourself, if you think the price of investing in that equipment is worth it. But I would not invest in excess capacity on the basis that you will get a windfall into the future.

[Russell]

There are some farmers who put solar panels a couple of meters above their crops, so that they get electricity AND their crops are shielded from the most fierce sunlight, thus increasing crop yield.

Read it somewhere last week.

[Wage Slave]

Solar generation purchase prices: I don't know the current figure but google may well be your friend there.

But I will say, in my personal view, direct from the source (i.e. pulled directly out of my arse) I predict that current prices will soon be regulated out of existence. I have seen eco schemes in other countries be unilaterally renegotiated, to much hue and cry from those who invested on the basis that certain prices were guaranteed for a specified period of time, but once the scheme was oversubscribed the government was more than happy to move the goalposts. I don't see that Japan will be any different.

In extensive tours over the backroads of various regions of this country over the last few months, I have seen increasing evidence of agricultural land being turned over to photovoltaic arrays. Don't bother about non-productive roof area, they are going for otherwise productive land. Rumour has it that much of the investment is coming from China, but that may just be standard Japanese "the Chinese are the bogeyman" talk. But it is showing all the signs of distinctly skewed decision making resulting form an artificially propped up market price. Something is going to give, and I don't think it will be long before it does. And I think the victim is going to be the buy price for eco power.

By all means go for capacity that you will use yourself, if you think the price of investing in that equipment is worth it. But I would not invest in excess capacity on the basis that you will get a windfall into the future.

Not that I have researched this in any great detail (ie hardly at all) but the above is pretty much exactly how I see it. The price they pay should be instantly available from any supplier. I think it was 27 Yen a kilowatt/hour or something like that when I looked at it. Way higher than the power companies can produce it for anyway. Add to that the fact if they make it themselves they can make it when they need it, where they need it and exactly how they need it and I get nervous. Adjusting output to match demand and meeting peak demand is not easy. Nor is transforming and distributing all that power a trivial engineering task even when you have control over the inputs and designed the system from scratch.

Even assuming we use most of what panels on the roof could generate I am still hesitant. Because of:

1. The risk of an unwilling buyer and false price not lasting the distance.
2. The fact you have to put all the money in up front.
3. The risk of storm/earthquake damage or breakdown over (say) ten years
4. The doubt over how much of your money you can recover if you have to/decide to sell or rent the house (say) 5 years down the line

I might just be suffering old man's caution - you get like that later in life as you can't so easily afford mistakes any more - but I decided I'd rather have the money in the bank or invested elsewhere. I might regret that in time - We will see - but at least I know where I stand.

[wagyl]

I decided I'd rather have the money in the bank

Good Lord I hope that is not a Japanese bank.

[Wage Slave]

I decided I'd rather have the money in the bank

Good Lord I hope that is not a Japanese bank.

Not much of it that's for sure.

[matsuki]

So, in essence, what you guys are saying is the current price point for solar generated power is artificially high and you think it's going to be brought down sometime in the near future? Wouldn't that require something drastic like restarting the nuke plants AND lowering elec costs? Yeah, the J-gov is fucked enough to pull the rug out from everyone's feet like that but then wouldn't the trend head towards going off grid where possible? (OMG!! Now more power lines littering the sky!! It's like kaigai!!)

By all means go for capacity that you will use yourself, if you think the price of investing in that equipment is worth it. But I would not invest in excess capacity on the basis that you will get a windfall into the future.

At the end of the day, there's this....and considering how much elec costs here vs other cuntries, any kind of power generation (for your own use) is probably more viable here than in other countries.

[wagyl]

Wouldn't that require something drastic like restarting the nuke plants AND lowering elec costs?

In a word, no. I really don't know why you think the world works like that. All it takes is someone deciding that the price offered is too high. After all it is an incentive to increase take up of green energy supply, with absolutely no relationship to the costs of its production. No more, no less.

In fact, what you are saying is not too far distant from "wouldn't the reduction in ETC expressway discounts require something drastic like reimbursing users for past buying and installing ETC transponders?" or "wouldn't increasing the consumption tax from 5% to 10% require something drastic like the reduction of income tax rates or increase in pension payments?"

Another thing you maybe fail to realise is that almost every solar generating system I see requires connection to the grid, not only as a place to put the excess production but also as a source of power to manage the system. When there were blackouts after the Tohoku earthquake, all those solar generators stopped production, because there was no power input to run the management programs. I don't know whether it was the same for wind but I suspect the same. This is probably only due to the lack of a battery to hold enough power to tide them over during the lean periods, but it is an almost universal lack. People aren't going to be cutting loose from the teat of powerlines any time soon.

[Wage Slave]

All that. And unless you plan to install batteries or run a generator you will need the grid once the sun goes down anyway.

[matsuki]

In a word, no. I really don't know why you think the world works like that. All it takes is someone deciding that the price offered is too high. After all it is an incentive to increase take up of green energy supply, with absolutely no relationship to the costs of its production. No more, no less.

My sarcasm injection seems to be broken but....

Yeah, the J-gov is fucked enough to pull the rug out from everyone's feet like that

Another thing you maybe fail to realise is that almost every solar generating system I see requires connection to the grid, not only as a place to put the excess production but also as a source of power to manage the system. When there were blackouts after the Tohoku earthquake, all those solar generators stopped production, because there was no power input to run the management programs. I don't know whether it was the same for wind but I suspect the same. This is probably only due to the lack of a battery to hold enough power to tide them over during the lean periods, but it is an almost universal lack. People aren't going to be cutting loose from the teat of powerlines any time soon.

I meant totally off grid as in you have your own battery bank. (in which case you are only trying to generate enough for your own use) If elec prices keep rising and you are stuck with a solar panel (or other elec generating system) that the gov. just turned the tables on, it's not too far a stretch to wean yourself off the grid.

[Wage Slave]

I meant totally off grid as in you have your own battery bank. (in which case you are only trying to generate enough for your own use) If elec prices keep rising and you are stuck with a solar panel (or other elec generating system) that the gov. just turned the tables on, it's not too far a stretch to wean yourself off the grid.

I think it is quite a challenge to wean yourself off the grid. A battery to run the management system is not too difficult of course but enough battery capacity to store the excess power you created to cover the evenings and dull days is another story.

But in your case it is a holiday home anyway so the economic case for solar relies on the power companies buying your production, not on it being used on site.

So, in essence, what you guys are saying is the current price point for solar generated power is artificially high and you think it's going to be brought down sometime in the near future?

No. In essence we are saying that the economic case for small scale solar for sale rather than use relies on an artificially high price from an unwilling buyer for a period of 10 years. Further, that unwilling buyer's economic situation has deteriorated severely. Can't pay rather than won't pay starts to rear its ugly head. Further, the impetus behind this, The Kyoto Accord, seems to be fading somewhat.

I do like the idea of solar but at present I'm not willing to put my money into it.

[wagyl]

One other comment I would make is that the reason people are off grid, apart from "back to the land, little house on the prairie homesteading" sentiment, is because of the cost of getting power lines installed into the site. This is where people baulk, and consider the options of installing their own generating capacity. It is not because of the cost of the power itself.

Inertia is a very powerful force, and I don't think people will be cutting access to existing power lines because of power costs. If supply was intermittent or unreliable, I think more people would consider self sufficiency, but until the question "which supply source is most likely to leave me with having to deal with a deep freeze full of defrosting food?" is answered by "the power company" I don't see people unhooking.

[Russell]

For yours information, the power companies are forced to buy solar power by law, but they are also allowed by law to charge the rest of the customers for it.

Dunno how well this is going to work out with the liberalization of the electricity market that they are contemplating, though...

[Coligny]

Dunno how well this is going to work out with the liberalization of the electricity market that they are contemplating, though...

Great, just what we need... The Enron scandal will soon sound like a happy christmas story...

[Wage Slave]

For yours information, the power companies are forced to buy solar power by law, but they are also allowed by law to charge the rest of the customers for it.

How do you mean? They can certainly try to resell it but they can't just charge us all for what they have had to buy. Well, not directly anyway. I suppose it's true though that the price paid by everyone will increase to cover the extra costs that solar is imposing on them. Politically that will be difficult to sustain and hence my nervousness.

[wagyl]

I just did a bit of research, and the purchase price for solar generated electricity from residential customers with less than 10 kiloWatt capacity for installations made this year is 37 yen per kiloWatthour.　
http://www.meti.go.jp/press/2013/03/201 ... 325002.pdf
http://www.nattoku-solar.com/news/index.html

They say they will force the power company to pay this for 10 years but they also say that we will receive adequate pensions when we retire. Oh, you want to retire at 65? Sorry, you will have to wait, young man.

Note also that they can buy from large scale hydro for 14 yen a KWh so if they were not forced to they would choose that at 40% of the price, and (potentially, but maybe not in practice) more ability to have control over when the supply comes.

My power company has added a surcharge of 3 sen per KWh for promotion of solar generation. Data for other power companies is included in the METI pdf. This is not in any way passing the costs on to the consumer. By way of illustration, they also charge 75 sen for promotion of low consumption generation and 78 sen fuel cost levy. All three together add maybe 8% to my power bill costs (after excluding the base contract fee).

In fact, they are selling power to me including all those levies at 22.22 yen per KWh, and buying it at 37 yen. They pay 42 yen to those who set up their systems two or more years ago. On top of that they have to maintain nuclear power plants which are not producing. Power generation utilities, a mug's game in Japan.

[Wage Slave]

So they are being forced to buy it at a much higher price than they can sell it for whether or not they can sell actually sell it.

[wagyl]

So they are being forced to buy it at a much higher price than they can sell it for whether or not they can sell actually sell it.

For those who get in on the ground floor, it pays to herd your goats on to the airstrip.

[matsuki]

37yen jeebus! No wonder all the farmers are trying to cash in now.

So let me take a step back here...say I'm selling the power now for 37yen a KWh and not using much of it, the system will likely pay itself off in less time than in a home that　it's used daily. Say the gov reduce the forced cost from 37 to 22 or even down to 14 in 5 years. (reasonably safe guess if they're promising 10 now?) If you've already paid off the system by then, while you may not be raking in the 37yen a KWh anymore, you've benefited and will continue to do so for the life of the setup, yes? Even if they stop buying elec, you don't need to stay connected to keep saving, just keep what is needed of your setup to meet your demand and sell off any additional panels/components. (I guess my point here is it's only risky if you're trying to start some sort of solarfarm based on the long term continuation of the current artificial pricing...if the goal is self sufficiency and/or just knocking down your elec. bill, taking advantage of the current situation makes sense)

[Russell]

Choko, the efficiency of solar panels will decrease over the years, to (I remember) some 80% after 20 years or so. That does not necessarily make it a bad deal, though. However, you have to be careful with selecting the company that installs it. Get the wrong one, and they may ruin the tiles on your roof, causing leakage, etc. Installing solar panels on a new house makes more sense, though I wonder what their lifetime as a barrier against rain is. Will that be the same as regular tiles?

Another point I read somewhere is that solar panels are relatively expensive here in Japan. That may be because of the hype caused by these subsidies, but there may also be some protectionism effect. Anyway, companies from abroad are very much attracted to the Japanese market because of the high prices, so this may reduce prices over time. My estimate a couple of years back was that the price for solar panels in Japan was twice what you pay outside Japan. I came to this estimate by reading some web sites in the US. Dunno how the situation is now, but I expect not much improvement in just a few years. I also think there is not much DIY in installing solar panels, unlike in the US. Anyway, you may not want to fuck around with power electronics if you don't know what you do.

Now, if one is really smart, one installs fake solar panels and sells the regular 22 yen / kWh electricity back to the net for 37 yen / kWh as if it were solar energy.



Actually, I wonder whether someone already got that idea before me...

[wagyl]

37yen jeebus! No wonder all the farmers are trying to cash in now.

Farmers are getting 32 yen by the way. What I still can't get my head around is that these farmers are willing to put productive agricultural land out of action for this, but they leave the roofs of their farm buildings to go to waste. If it were me, I would be panelling my roof way before I spread these things on the ground. Trying to brush cut around these installations will be a pain to say the least. And they will need brush cutting, that is a given.

Now, if one is really smart, one installs fake solar panels and sells the regular 22 yen / kWh electricity back to the net for 37 yen / kWh as if it were solar energy.



Actually, I wonder whether someone already got that idea before me...

Unfortunately, you would need a way to store that energy before sending it back: giant capacitors??? Simultaneous power in both directions registers as a zero consumption, but also zero supply.

(I guess my point here is it's only risky if you're trying to start some sort of solarfarm based on the long term continuation of the current artificial pricing...if the goal is self sufficiency and/or just knocking down your elec. bill, taking advantage of the current situation makes sense)

...or in other words...

By all means go for capacity that you will use yourself, if you think the price of investing in that equipment is worth it. But I would not invest in excess capacity on the basis that you will get a windfall into the future.

[Wage Slave]

Now, if one is really smart, one installs fake solar panels and sells the regular 22 yen / kWh electricity back to the net for 37 yen / kWh as if it were solar energy.



Actually, I wonder whether someone already got that idea before me...

I'd be interested in the technical details of that one - you'd need a way to store it and sell it back later. I suppose you could run a little Honda generator and pass off the output as solar though. No idea whether that could be done for less than 37 Yen a kwh or not. Maybe.