"Why Are Japanese Homes Disposable?"

[matsuki]

Looks like a shitty repair job...those nails don't look that old AND the painted ones look like they weren't there with the original paint. That being said, I doubt the builder will help you out so you filling in all the gaps with something that might last a little longer than silly-cone is in order.

[Wage Slave]

So what is supporting the panels if it's not the hooks?

They are sitting on top of each other.

Is the bottom panel on the ground/foundation where it can soak up water? So to replace one, you have to first remove all panels above? (Sorry, I'm just not understanding the ingeniousness of this setup)

Yes, basically. The bottom panel rests on a support secured to the dwarf wall that is part of the foundation. There is a small air gap there to allow ventilation under the house.The next slots into it and is further secured/supported by hooks. How much load the hooks bear I am not sure but it looked like not much when they were building ours.

I don't think that soaking up water is a problem as it is a good third of a metre or so above ground level. However, you are right. If you want to replace a panel you will have to remove all the panels above it first after cutting away all the silicone seals.

[Wage Slave]

That's worse isn't it .......Are all the panels nailed? .......If so, it looks like a bodge job. They shouldn't be nailed at all and they haven't been fitted at all properly if they are.

I'm not sure what you could put in there that is better than silicone. Perhaps there is something but that's what is normally used. They guys that apply it, buy it in great big tubs and have stainless steel guns to apply it with.

It has all the hallmarks of a racket really. Ask my SiL - She was well pissed off.

[Coligny]

I think near the wood plank and plastic panels aisle every hardware shop have long plastic trims for corners and jointing.

Splatering silicone and topping with either a flat or shallow T trim piece would weatherproof and protect the silicone from the UV.


Without the blueprints its a bit difficult to guess how the panels were supposed to be secured. Usually, Matching panel width and wood studs placement need to be done on purpose. The fact that the nailing on both edge of the panels match the stud placement perfectly would let me think it's on purpose...

Can I bother you for a big picture view of the whole house ?

[chibaka]

Looks like a shitty repair job...those nails don't look that old AND the painted ones look like they weren't there with the original paint. That being said, I doubt the builder will help you out so you filling in all the gaps with something that might last a little longer than silly-cone is in order.

I'm beginning to think it's a shitty repair job myself, but I'll look around tomorrow to compare with other panels. Even so, the materials are shit. The nail positioning looks very iffy, like a rush job. Curious though, that would have been done within the (assumed) 10 year warranty period.

This is what it looked like when I bought it 6 years ago...
The offending join is from the centre of the first floor window (right side) up to the second floor window.

Garden1.jpg

[Russell]

Sealant for housing panels is called コーキング in Japanese (or caulking in English).

It is supposed to be better than silicon. I seem to remember to have seen it at a home center as コーキング. If you insist on using silicon and want it to be UV-proof, use スーパーシール of セメダイン. スーパーシール is a PITA to work with, but is supposed to stay in better shape than normal silicon when used outdoors. It is also more expensive.

[chibaka]

I'll get some this week, corners need attention too... spend half my time in Cainz Home

IMG_5757 (Large).JPG

[Coligny]

image.jpg

image.jpg

On both pictures, the bottom right nail seems to have been driven by a hammer, since there is marring on the panels from excessive hammer strikes.

This would be the best clue toward a repair job.

During construction, nails are driven with pneumatic hammer guns that have no possibility to damage the surrounding surface. No hammerring for main construction because it would take forever and the noise could drive anyone insane.
Repair jobs are done with a hammer since it woild take more time to deploy the compressor hose and gun than just hammer the shit out of some nails.

Also... Silicon work on vertical surface as the Dutchman said... Is beyond maddening... Especially for wide gap. Have a plan B to hold the silicone in place while it dries (stick of wood clad in saran wrap might work)
Use nitril or latex gloves at all cost. Have the surface as dry as possible, silicone don't stick to wet stuff... Working with wet hands can help if you don't have gloves... For disaster mitigation have a bucket of water and few rolls of paper towels nearby... And put generous quantity of newspaper on the ground around your workplace.
Working with silicon can quickly become messier than a paint job. Because paint only drip a little from the intended surface. Silicon can totally fall back down to the ground.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Garden1.jpg

That photo reminded me of something I've always wondered. What's the deal in Japan with not building steps or a step to sliding glass doors?

[chibaka]

That photo reminded me of something I've always wondered. What's the deal in Japan with not building steps or a step to sliding glass doors?

Drives me mad too, since that pic I built a deck, no need to abseil into the garden now.. I've got 3 windows like that, needless to say only the one with the deck gets used.

[Taro Toporific]

Garden1.jpg

That photo reminded me of something I've always wondered. What's the deal in Japan with not building steps or a step to sliding glass doors?

Like so many Japanese construction fuckups (wallpaper fetish, intentionally drafty windows, etc.), it's a vestigial cultural problem: In this case, the engawa.

search.jpg

wikipedia.org/wiki/Engawa

[Samurai_Jerk]

Garden1.jpg

That photo reminded me of something I've always wondered. What's the deal in Japan with not building steps or a step to sliding glass doors?

Like so many Japanese construction fuckups (wallpaper fetish, intentionally drafty windows, etc.), it's a vestigial cultural problem: In this case, the engawa.

search.jpg

wikipedia.org/wiki/Engawa

It always just looks like a broken or sprained ankle waiting to happen to me.

[Coligny]

Garden1.jpg

That photo reminded me of something I've always wondered. What's the deal in Japan with not building steps or a step to sliding glass doors?

Like so many Japanese construction fuckups (wallpaper fetish, intentionally drafty windows, etc.), it's a vestigial cultural problem: In this case, the engawa.

search.jpg

wikipedia.org/wiki/Engawa

Wasn't that... Sidewalk... Enclosable in winter ?

[wagyl]

These photos and the description of your issues really brings home how poor new construction is. It is asking a lot to expect that to last for even 10 years. The place I am in has been here for at least 140 years documented, and most likely for 167 years. I don't know if the structure was brought here from somewhere else those 167 years ago or if it was new then, but I can tell you the only parts of it which cause a problem are the extensions and cosmetic refits done since the 1960's. But if I keep talking like this I will start to sound like the kind of guy who has a bath on the afternoon of 11 March 2011.

[matsuki]

So what is supporting the panels if it's not the hooks?

They are sitting on top of each other.

Is the bottom panel on the ground/foundation where it can soak up water? So to replace one, you have to first remove all panels above? (Sorry, I'm just not understanding the ingeniousness of this setup)

Yes, basically. The bottom panel rests on a support secured to the dwarf wall that is part of the foundation. There is a small air gap there to allow ventilation under the house.The next slots into it and is further secured/supported by hooks. How much load the hooks bear I am not sure but it looked like not much when they were building ours.

I don't think that soaking up water is a problem as it is a good third of a metre or so above ground level. However, you are right. If you want to replace a panel you will have to remove all the panels above it first after cutting away all the silicone seals.

Ahhhhh, now I understand.....but as Taro ranted on in the cement box thread, for all the cement they use here, they still don't do things properly. Cement soaks up water so that third of a meter stem wall you got isn't going to help., it is a problem UNLESS they put some sort of water barrier between it and those panels. (which I doubt)

[Wage Slave]

I'll get some this week, corners need attention too... spend half my time in Cainz Home

IMG_5757 (Large).JPG

That corner piece has split. Just pumping sealant in won't fix it for long. Agreed with Coligny about pneumatic hammers - I haven't seen a normal hammer used even once on site here. Anyway, it is impossible to believe that stuff is supposed to be nailed, it's too brittle for nails. Drilling it and screwing it would be a lot better but isn't how it is supposed to be done. You could use those drill screws that the pro's like using but I'd take the time to drill it properly and then fit a round head screw with a big washer to reduce the chances of more cracking.

It was presumably repaired because the siding is coming away from the frame of the house in places - that would also explain the split in the corner. Have you had a quake there? Or perhaps there has been a bit of settling? If the movement, for whatever reason, continues it doesn't matter what you do, it will continue to crack, split and come away.

And the sealant needs to be redone over the whole house because it can't be too far behind the bits that are completely gone. It doesn't look very good either side of that corner piece.

I think you had better think about getting some independent advice. Perhaps an architect or his nominated guy. I fear you could have some real problems.

[Wage Slave]

So what is supporting the panels if it's not the hooks?

They are sitting on top of each other.

Is the bottom panel on the ground/foundation where it can soak up water? So to replace one, you have to first remove all panels above? (Sorry, I'm just not understanding the ingeniousness of this setup)

Yes, basically. The bottom panel rests on a support secured to the dwarf wall that is part of the foundation. There is a small air gap there to allow ventilation under the house.The next slots into it and is further secured/supported by hooks. How much load the hooks bear I am not sure but it looked like not much when they were building ours.

I don't think that soaking up water is a problem as it is a good third of a metre or so above ground level. However, you are right. If you want to replace a panel you will have to remove all the panels above it first after cutting away all the silicone seals.

Ahhhhh, now I understand.....but as Taro ranted on in the cement box thread, for all the cement they use here, they still don't do things properly. Cement soaks up water so that third of a meter stem wall you got isn't going to help., it is a problem UNLESS they put some sort of water barrier between it and those panels. (which I doubt)

The panels are not in direct contact with the concrete. They lie about a cm outside it if that makes sense. That's where the ventilation for under the house comes from.There is also an aluminium skirt at the top of the concrete to direct water away and to prevent it coming up.

[matsuki]

Garden1.jpg

That photo reminded me of something I've always wondered. What's the deal in Japan with not building steps or a step to sliding glass doors?

Like so many Japanese construction fuckups (wallpaper fetish, intentionally drafty windows, etc.), it's a vestigial cultural problem: In this case, the engawa.

search.jpg

wikipedia.org/wiki/Engawa

LOL, thanks for that! That shit always confused me as well. Many places seem to just drop some sort of massive boulder in front to act as a step.

[matsuki]

So what is supporting the panels if it's not the hooks?

They are sitting on top of each other.

Is the bottom panel on the ground/foundation where it can soak up water? So to replace one, you have to first remove all panels above? (Sorry, I'm just not understanding the ingeniousness of this setup)

Yes, basically. The bottom panel rests on a support secured to the dwarf wall that is part of the foundation. There is a small air gap there to allow ventilation under the house.The next slots into it and is further secured/supported by hooks. How much load the hooks bear I am not sure but it looked like not much when they were building ours.

I don't think that soaking up water is a problem as it is a good third of a metre or so above ground level. However, you are right. If you want to replace a panel you will have to remove all the panels above it first after cutting away all the silicone seals.

Ahhhhh, now I understand.....but as Taro ranted on in the cement box thread, for all the cement they use here, they still don't do things properly. Cement soaks up water so that third of a meter stem wall you got isn't going to help., it is a problem UNLESS they put some sort of water barrier between it and those panels. (which I doubt)

The panels are not in direct contact with the concrete. They lie about a cm outside it if that makes sense. That's where the ventilation for under the house comes from.There is also an aluminium skirt at the top of the concrete to direct water away and to prevent it coming up.

The alumi-flashing there isn't going to protect against water and is probably only on the edges but if the panels aren't what's in contact with the cement, they're probably safe though the next question I'd be asking is "what is in direct contact with the cement?" (If you ever have the chance, you should check if they used anything)

[Wage Slave]

the next question I'd be asking is "what is in direct contact with the cement?" (If you ever have the chance, you should check if they used anything)

I had a look at my pictures. You can't really see it properly but there are some black plastic blocks between the top of the concrete wall and the timber bottom of the frame. The siding is about to go on next and it is about a cm outside the the concrete and overlaps it by a few cms.

DSC04931.JPG

[matsuki]

the next question I'd be asking is "what is in direct contact with the cement?" (If you ever have the chance, you should check if they used anything)

I had a look at my pictures. You can't really see it properly but there are some black plastic blocks between the top of the concrete wall and the timber bottom of the frame. The siding is about to go on next and it is about a cm outside the the concrete and overlaps it by a few cms.

DSC04931.JPG

You're all good then! (though I don't know how long that plastic lasts compared to pressure treated wood and builders felt but it seems like that plastic stuff mostly what is used here)

[Wage Slave]

I just checked the flashing as well. It goes down, under the siding and back up the other side so there's an effective barrier from rainwater. The OP seems to have similar flashing on his.

What I would be concerned about is the evidence of recent movement causing the damage especially to the corner pieces. Some settling is normal but it should stop at some point and 13 years down the road is past that point. That kind of continuous and wider than a mm or so cracking is a bit scary to say the least.

[chibaka]

Searched Google images for コーキング, plenty of examples there of it needing replacing. Seems to be a routine maintenance item, except the nails that it.

[chibaka]

Good morning campers, was out early this morning, lookie here...
First picture is a "good" corner with evidence of caulk from new, and a join needing new caulk, no problem there.

IMG_5773 (Large).JPG

Next my investigation turned to the nails, and guess what, it seems nails are evident even when there is no sign of panel movement.
I found nails in several places, here are some examples.

Here...

IMG_5775 (Large).JPG

Here...

IMG_5776 (Large).JPG

And... fuck me, behind a water down pipe which means it's been there from day one...

IMG_5778 (Large).JPG

This is the crap that my house is built with. I removed this section when I installed a wood stove and chimney last year.

IMG_5781 (Large).JPG

I am now leaning back towards shitty building practices. My wife is on board, she's better at negotiating in the lingo, I'll end up shouting at someone. Report being prepared to present all the evidence, whether they give a shit or not is anyone's guess.

[chibaka]

And just for good measure, while I'm outside keeping busy, I checked a neighbours house and guess what, same builder, same nails.
Of course I know this will be passed off as wear and tear but still....worth a try.

[matsuki]

Nails holding all the panels on like that...with something as rigid as those panels, they're bound to crack where nailed (maybe even when nailed) I guess it's all faster/cheaper to build like this rather than using thinset but the time/money savings definitely do not get passed on to the owner.

As Coligny pointed out, the first ones you posted scream repair job with a hammer. Might want to find out if the home has any previous claims with the builder.

[Wage Slave]

Yes damage can be done when driving nails without pilot holes into this kind of siding but these pictures show evidence of movement. If that movement is not active, eg a quake in the past, then fine. Repair and carry on but if the movement is active, then there's a problem.

Choko, I'm curious. How would you use thinset to fix siding to the frame of a house?

[chibaka]

Not all panels have nails, looks like they were randomly used if a panel was not flush with the others? However, neighbours houses are the same, seems this builder uses nails as a matter of course.

[matsuki]

Yes damage can be done when driving nails without pilot holes into this kind of siding but these pictures show evidence of movement. If that movement is not active, eg a quake in the past, then fine. Repair and carry on but if the movement is active, then there's a problem.

Choko, I'm curious. How would you use thinset to fix siding to the frame of a house?

http://www.doityourself.com/stry/how-to ... r-panels#b
(hint: the cladding itself should not be used as it's being done here for exactly the problems we're seeing...if what was under it was sealed, any repairs would be simply cosmetic.)

But then again, most don't build with as much cardboard and plastic as they do here...aren't homes built using 2x4's is still considered a luxury option/selling point?

[Wage Slave]

I see, thanks. Are those panels really 4 inch by 2 inch or is that a misprint? Anyway, so you fit a drywall and then apply the panels/tiles to that.

If there is movement, be it from quake or settling, what then? Wouldn't there be cracking just as with fibrecrete siding? And if it cracks, wouldn't the drywall behind then be vulnerable?