"Why Are Japanese Homes Disposable?"

[Wage Slave]

...aren't homes built using 2x4's is still considered a luxury option/selling point?

I am not at all clear what that term means in Japan. When I was shopping for a house it seemed to refer to a method of construction based on factory prefabricated panels, frame and all, which were 4:2 in proportion. These panels then have a fairly wide gap filled with caulking between them which provides plenty of earthquake movement.

What I found out later (from SiL) was that that caulking properly done and using the correct stuff lasts about 15 years before it starts letting in water.

However, I may have got that wrong. I never did manage to get a clear explanation of exactly what 4x2 means.

[matsuki]

I see, thanks. Are those panels really 4 inch by 2 inch or is that a misprint? Anyway, so you fit a drywall and then apply the panels/tiles to that.

If there is movement, be it from quake or settling, what then? Wouldn't there be cracking just as with fibrecrete siding? And if it cracks, wouldn't the drywall behind then be vulnerable?

...aren't homes built using 2x4's is still considered a luxury option/selling point?

I am not at all clear what that term means in Japan. When I was shopping for a house it seemed to refer to a method of construction based on factory prefabricated panels, frame and all, which were 4:2 in proportion. These panels then have a fairly wide gap filled with caulking between them which provides plenty of earthquake movement.

What I found out later (from SiL) was that that caulking properly done and using the correct stuff lasts about 15 years before it starts letting in water.

However, I may have got that wrong. I never did manage to get a clear explanation of exactly what 4x2 means.

2x4:

2c56fc1705ffeba3c0ecc085743727aec751df3ae4d2d97927a074d172c9e533[1].jpg

Basically meaning they built a home using 2x4's instead of smaller sized wood in their typical Japanese post and beam construction...with a bunch of band-aid type fixes to call them modern.

PB-Illustration-Normal[1].jpg

LOLs: http://www.cintrafor.org/publications/f ... s/FS31.pdf


As to the outer portion of the walls, there are several ways to do it but what I'm taking issue with here is that the outer cladding is basically a floating wall and is the only barrier to the outside...and is dependent on that caulk for a seal which is guaranteed to fail. If you have a flexible water barrier/coating/whatever UNDER that shit, then any damage to the cladding won't let water in. As to earthquakes and such, with many of the veneers, there are gaps between each tile/stone/etc. so a small amount of movement allowed. (and if a piece falls off, it 's a real easy fix) If you go with something like board and batten, there is space allowed for the shrinking/expanding that wood tends to do each season. (something I almost never seen accounted for here...so you get doors/windows that stick and slam shut depending on the seasons)

[Wage Slave]

Aha. Thanks. Well, my Julie was/is always useless at anything grasping anything technical and I had only been here a matter of weeks at the time. I ended up buying a light steel frame thing so forgot about it.

I completely agree about the caulk. It seems such a racket and doing a whole house means a lot of labour and doing it without scaffolding is going to be hard and time consuming. It's also tricky to do right.

The main part of my place and just about everything else around here is galvanised metal sheet with about a cm of insulating foam on one side and a few mm of stucco on the other. The stucco was sprayed on in situ. There are no gaps and no caulking. I suppose it is flexible enough, as is, not to need gaps. It's in pretty much perfect condition after 25 years and one or two mild (5?) earthquakes. A lot of people have painted it and their houses look as smart as a new build. I'm too mean but I might powerwash it one day.

[Wage Slave]

And then there is this:

Despite the success of the 2x4 construction system in Japan, imports of US wooden building materials are
constrained due to the fact that there is a Japanese version of the 2x4 construction technology that co-exists
with the North American-style. The primary difference between the two systems relates to the size of the
basic construction module used in the construction process. The Japanese-style 2x4 system utilizes a 3’x6’
panel size which is based on the size of a traditional tatami mat, whereas the North American-style 2x4 system
employs 4’x8’ panels in the construction process. Another difference between the two construction systems is
the spacing of studs and joists; 17.9 inches (455 mm) on center in the Japanese system versus 16 inches (405
mm) on center in the North American system. In addition, the Japanese system tends to use more wood in the
construction process (particularly in the structural framing) and thus tends to have higher material and labor
costs, making the Japanese system less cost effective.

The same summary seems to be saying there is a fundamental difference between 2x4 and post and beam - But I'm not clear what that is.

http://www.cintrafor.org/publications/workingpapers/WP115.pdf

[Wage Slave]

So, have I understood, sort of anyway? Timber houses are not at all in my background.

Post and Beam has heavier posts at the corners and hefty, jointed beams at the top of each floor to support the weight above. There are relatively fewer studs and they are lighter than 2 x 4 studs because they are not load bearing. There are also fewer cross braces because the beams add stability.

2 x 4 construction on the other hand relies on a higher number of heavier 2x4 studs that run all the way to the top of the second floor. There are no heavy corner posts or beams. There is more cross bracing and other bracing to add stiffness.

And, this build is post and beam in Hinoki wood with steel "band aid" solutions to add further strength to the corners.

DSC04929.JPG

DSC04927.JPG

DSC04926.JPG

DSC04924.JPG

[Coligny]

And, this build is post and beam in Hinoki wood with steel "band aid" solutions to add further strength to the corners.

The threaded rod pensioner going from the top of the 1st floor beam to the bottom of the 2nd floor beam look like a good way to keep stuff together while allowing some springiness...

pretty cool in my book...

Any stress simulation visualization available ? I'll bet it's on the construction company marketting blurbs...

sidenote, there's really a shitload of bolt and pocket screws... shoddy flexibility over durability ? (plus mortise and tenon takes time and skills... fuck that shit...)

[Wage Slave]

And, this build is post and beam in Hinoki wood with steel "band aid" solutions to add further strength to the corners.

The threaded rod pensioner going from the top of the 1st floor beam to the bottom of the 2nd floor beam look like a good way to keep stuff together while allowing some springiness...

pretty cool in my book...

Any stress simulation visualization available ? I'll bet it's on the construction company marketting blurbs...

sidenote, there's really a shitload of bolt and pocket screws... shoddy flexibility over durability ? (plus mortise and tenon takes time and skills... fuck that shit...)

It's only one floor. so that's the roof you can see above the top beam. I haven't seen a stress simulation as it was a small company. The design was done by our architect not theirs. They got a bit upset about that but tough - that's how it should be in my book.

Those bolts are securing the sill to the foundation wall and are buried deep in the concrete. They run through those plastic spacers we talked of earlier. The posts and beams are precut mortice and tenon joints that had to be hammered into place with the biggest mallet I have ever seen.

[matsuki]

You pretty much got it Wage Slave, stick frame vs post and beam. So when they say 2x4 construction, I think they're basically saying it's stick frame using 2x4's but I guess they could also mean post and beam with 2x4's as well. Either way, it's stronger than the normal Jap post and beam with smaller wood and less likely to get fucked due to shrinkage or earthquakes and such. (The Jap post and beam home I spent 2008 in, it was tilted to one side and all of the doors in the home would stick on one side...imagine paying X千万円 for that result) Then there's NA stick frame construction, based on experience/science vs. Japanese stick frame clusterfuck (as you quoted above) based on....the size of tatami mats?? (Cause, you know....everyone still uses tatami mat flooring? )

[matsuki]

At any given time around my office, there are crews tearing down old homes or building new ones. Having recently watching an episode of British home building show where a couple was having an American kit home built in Britain...and watching the Brits complain about the advertised build time being unrealistic (the Brit crew were still hammering in nails one by one while the lone American sent out to instruct/help had brought a nail gun and was in shock that none of the Brits owned one, let alone knew how to use one) I couldn't help but notice that none of the crews around here are using nail guns. It's not like they don't sell them here either...I've seen them at most home centers...but guessing the managers are cutting whatever corners they can to save a yen here or there.

[Samurai_Jerk]

At any given time around my office, there are crews tearing down old homes or building new ones.

Dude, half my neighborhood has been under contraction for at least a year. And now they're working on the streets too. Just when I think it's finally over someone else decides to tear their house down or refurbish their office building. It's fucking driving me crazy. Sleeping in is impossible.

[Wage Slave]

On our build and the two houses nearby the guys used nothing except nail guns. And power saws and power screwdrivers. I was struck by the almost total absence of any hand tools.

As for the UK, well, timber frame buildings are almost unheard of and rarely preferred. Bricks, bricks and more bricks. Or those nasty concrete block things. But I take your point, nail guns are so much better that it makes no sense to use hammers for anything more than a couple of nails.

[Wage Slave]

Just watching the latest fairly big and posh build taking shape. They have a big crane on site and are lifting in prefabricated timber panels and nailgunning/bolting them together/in place. The timber used in the panels looks like 2x4 to me so there may have been some truth in my earlier impression of what 2x4 actually means around here. I suppose the second floor will then just be placed on top in similar fashion. The panels are both floor and walls - some of them are pretty large.

Not post and beam but not classic American 2x4 either.

[matsuki]

At any given time around my office, there are crews tearing down old homes or building new ones.

Dude, half my neighborhood has been under contraction for at least a year. And now they're working on the streets too. Just when I think it's finally over someone else decides to tear their house down or refurbish their office building. It's fucking driving me crazy. Sleeping in is impossible.

Nearly all the homes I've seen torn down have been turned in to apartment buildings...then parking lots....only 1 have I seen get turned into a new home. How much more dense can Tokyo possibly get...

Just watching the latest fairly big and posh build taking shape. They have a big crane on site and are lifting in prefabricated timber panels and nailgunning/bolting them together/in place. The timber used in the panels looks like 2x4 to me so there may have been some truth in my earlier impression of what 2x4 actually means around here. I suppose the second floor will then just be placed on top in similar fashion. The panels are both floor and walls - some of them are pretty large.

Not post and beam but not classic American 2x4 either.

That's not classic American, it's modern American prefab construction. It's usually super cheap and quick. Any idea what company it was? I soooo want to use SIPs for my roof but it's either "silly gaijin, we don't do that here!" or one guy I know found a place but they're like 10x the cost as in the states and that doesn't even include delivery.

[Wage Slave]

It is certainly quick - Amazingly quick. I'll see if I can find out what the company is. I'm interested to see what they are building. The owners are doctors and have moved into a rental house next door to us for the duration and some. Actually they paid rent for 6 months or so in advance of the demolition starting just to keep the place available to them. The man of the house drives a Bentley and the wife a little BMW so it isn't going to be a cheapie that's for sure. Their old house was a Sekisui about 25 years old. Perfectly OK and a decent enough size. Had at least another 50 years left in it but down it had to come. At least I got a good look at how my house is constructed in the process.

[Samurai_Jerk]

At any given time around my office, there are crews tearing down old homes or building new ones.

Dude, half my neighborhood has been under contraction for at least a year. And now they're working on the streets too. Just when I think it's finally over someone else decides to tear their house down or refurbish their office building. It's fucking driving me crazy. Sleeping in is impossible.

Nearly all the homes I've seen torn down have been turned in to apartment buildings...then parking lots....only 1 have I seen get turned into a new home. How much more dense can Tokyo possibly get...

Most of the single-family houses in my area are being rebuilt as the same. Some are for sale and but most are just upgrades on the shacks that baba and jiji had been living in. Even a fairly big piece of land that had an old warehouse/office building on it till last year has been partially used for houses. It seems like something bigger is going on the rest of the land but I'm not sure if it'll be for commercial or residential use. I live in an area that's a mainly residential with some mom-n-pop business and small corporate offices mixed in. It's not the kind of place where they'd build a big office complex. I think most of the homeowners are Edokko from way back who want to keep the land in the family which might be why there doesn't seem to be much buying up of houses for conversion to apartments.

[matsuki]

It is certainly quick - Amazingly quick. I'll see if I can find out what the company is. I'm interested to see what they are building. The owners are doctors and have moved into a rental house next door to us for the duration and some. Actually they paid rent for 6 months or so in advance of the demolition starting just to keep the place available to them. The man of the house drives a Bentley and the wife a little BMW so it isn't going to be a cheapie that's for sure. Their old house was a Sekisui about 25 years old. Perfectly OK and a decent enough size. Had at least another 50 years left in it but down it had to come. At least I got a good look at how my house is constructed in the process.

Well, the idea behind them is the components can be built more efficiently, cheaply, etc. in factories and then put up extremely quick....but TIJ so I can totally see the companies here charging more and calling some sort of express construction I'm already buying a boom truck so rather than spend months building a roof. I'd love to spend a week plopping on a SIPs and sealing it.

SJ - My workplace is about 15 mins from Shinjuku so just the beginnings of the suburbs. I just can't imagine wanting to own a home like the ones in this area....where they're surrounded on 3 sides by small apartment buildings.

[Wage Slave]

The sign outside proudly states it's a:

Maison de Teranishi Projet (sic)

and a

Maison Plaisir

Not sure if they understand all the connotations of that last one - or am I wrong? Coligny will no doubt correct me as needed. Anyways, any company round here deploying French in their cause is going to be very pricy in my experience.

[Coligny]

Maison de plaisir, good for a brothel in a seedy place, better not care aboot roaches (more as a description/subtitle)
Maison du plaisir, good for luxury chocolate and tea shop. Expensive lingerie shop, think Mercobenz priced underwear (More as a shop name)
Maison des plaisirs, good for Porno-chic/libertin sex shop in expensive districts. Behind red curtains where customers wear masks and look like "eyes wide shut" orgies escapees...

Maison plaisir... Somebody gave a typewriter to a monkey... Again...

[Wage Slave]

Actually, it seems it is:

http://www.plaisirmaison.co.jp/

Which looks fuking typical of the refined tastes around here. Cheap it ain't though. They have got the first floor all up including interior walls and are half way through the second floor - in less than a day. I suspect a third floor is to go on.

[Coligny]

It is certainly quick - Amazingly quick. I'll see if I can find out what the company is. I'm interested to see what they are building. The owners are doctors and have moved into a rental house next door to us for the duration and some. Actually they paid rent for 6 months or so in advance of the demolition starting just to keep the place available to them. The man of the house drives a Bentley and the wife a little BMW so it isn't going to be a cheapie that's for sure. Their old house was a Sekisui about 25 years old. Perfectly OK and a decent enough size. Had at least another 50 years left in it but down it had to come. At least I got a good look at how my house is constructed in the process.

I toats married the wrong doctor...

[Wage Slave]

It is certainly quick - Amazingly quick. I'll see if I can find out what the company is. I'm interested to see what they are building. The owners are doctors and have moved into a rental house next door to us for the duration and some. Actually they paid rent for 6 months or so in advance of the demolition starting just to keep the place available to them. The man of the house drives a Bentley and the wife a little BMW so it isn't going to be a cheapie that's for sure. Their old house was a Sekisui about 25 years old. Perfectly OK and a decent enough size. Had at least another 50 years left in it but down it had to come. At least I got a good look at how my house is constructed in the process.

I toats married the wrong doctor...

I know the feeling. There are times when I feel like a pauper around here. The doctors with a successful private clinic are absolutely loaded. The ones who work for hospitals are just comfortable in comparison. Either way the area is infested with them.

[matsuki]

Not too late change that? Should be plenty of lonely old moneybags on that Ashley Madison Japan site?

[Coligny]

I know the feeling. There are times when I feel like a pauper around here. The doctors with a successful private clinic are absolutely loaded. The ones who work for hospitals are just comfortable in comparison. Either way the area is infested with them.

Jeez... we feel like paupers even in highway stops...

Should have taped our mutual reaction last time...

"the seats are not wobbly !"
"there's heating !"
"it's clean with stainless steel everywhere !"
"there's washlets !"
"there's warm water to wash your hands !"
"there's UV electric dryers !"
"there's smell good flower pots !"

She nearly went back to take pictures...

[Wage Slave]

Isn't that famous stop with the best public toilets (especially the ladies') in the world up near you? Near the Toyota factory. That one?

Also the best road surface I have ever ever seen. Like driving on glass.

[Coligny]

Isn't that famous stop with the best public toilets (especially the ladies') in the world up near you? Near the Toyota factory. That one?

Also the best road surface I have ever ever seen. Like driving on glass.

Maybeee...

Road surface are good too... even though mah ride is not exactly a lowered rice rocket with concrete blocks instead of dampers... So unless the pothole are big enough to swallow a kei car I'm usually always happy with the road surface (I miss the softer antirollbars of the Nissan Note though...)

But I hope for you that you never in your life experience driving on glass... unless I can have your stuff when they give up removing your corpse from the wreck...

[Wage Slave]

Two day's work.

[Coligny]

Sounds aboot right, will you go bugging their house at night soon ?

[Wage Slave]

Now there's a whole new hobby gadget world. I'll bet China produces a great range of very cheap devices.

[Coligny]

With such proximity/line of sight you could bet away with cups tied by strings...

[matsuki]

Now there's a whole new hobby gadget world. I'll bet China produces a great range of very cheap devices.

I have one of said devices....unfortunately, being made in China, it's about as useful as anything else made in China