No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

[Coligny]

Case where you cannot get your citizenship back:

La nationalité française ne peut être accordée à l'étranger :

qui a été condamné pour crimes ou délits constituant une atteinte aux intérêts fondamentaux de la Nation ou un acte de terrorisme,

ou qui a été condamné à une peine égale ou supérieure à 6 mois de prison sans sursis, quelle que soit l'infraction,

ou qui a fait l'objet soit d'un arrêté d'expulsion non rapporté ou abrogé, soit d'une interdiction du territoire français non entièrement exécutée,

ou qui est en séjour irrégulier en France.

TL/DR:

Being a criminal, a traitor or a terrorist.

It's not case of "we don't want you back just because you left us"
This law just highlight the opposite. unless you are a criminal, a traitor or a terrorist, then reintegration is ok.



And the bold one... Might stand in a french court. Just to be blasted sky high by the EU... (illegal stay)

[Coligny]

But sound really feudal... So it might be ok for england and other teacup/banana dictatorship but much harder to defend in normal republic.

According to this, there are cases where you cannot get French citizenship back.

ehmmm... see my previous post before dutch ruddering with your boyfriend....

I'd gladly post a pic of my dick so you can also have it in your face, but there is a ridiculous size limit for attachements....

Yes I know, you will now play the game "but he say you can always get back nationnality"
While i said "you can have it back after renouncing it" with highlights on following the laws...

[havill]

It's not case of "we don't want you back just because you left us"
... unless you are a criminal, a traitor or a terrorist...
And the bold one... (illegal stay)

Got it. So, "not automatic, and not unconditional." You still have to "qualify". (just like the No Criminal clause for U.S. and Japanese naturalization)

"Once French, always French" <-- B.S.

Gerard Depardieu needs to be careful not to overstay his French visa while he's in Paris doing a film... otherwise, he stays Russian ... unless he wants to give the U.S. or Japan (or heaven forbid, the U.K.) a shot.

[Coligny]

And one last thing: had the reason to refuse reintegration been less straightforward.
Then, yes it would probably be just feudal... and retarded... Not exactly everything runs right in France, that would just had been one more hiccup.
The current behaviour toward Dieudonne M'Balla M'Balla being a -really small- proof of immense suckage going on these days...


one more time, politic and laws are not like football cheerleading. When something sucks... it sucks...

[Coligny]

It's not case of "we don't want you back just because you left us"
... unless you are a criminal, a traitor or a terrorist...
And the bold one... (illegal stay)

Got it. So, "not automatic, and not unconditional." You still have to "qualify". (just like the No Criminal clause for U.S. and Japanese naturalization)
.

I would see that more like "you still have to avoid unqualifying"

Pretty sure you also can't get it back posthumously...

Treason is still quite a big thing with contrary laws. Despite abolition of the death penalty the books still listed the firing squad as punition for such act... Certainly been fixed with modernisation of the Napoleon Code.

[havill]

I would see that more like "you still have to avoid unqualifying"

You say the glass is half full, I say it's half empty. Must be a French thing.

Treason is still quite a big thing with contrary laws. Despite abolition of the death penalty the books still listed the firing squad as punition for such act... Certainly been fixed with modernisation of the Napoleon Code.

If France still wanted to keep its cool-ass image the punishment should be the guillotine. You guys invented the damn thing, and it's arguably more reliable/humane than firing squad, hanging (Japan), gas chamber, electric chair, or lethal injection.

[Coligny]

Not so sure...

If your daughter leave the house overnight and come back 3 years later asking if you still love her and take her back home is one thing.

If your daughter leave the house overnight and come back 3 years later, making the news for being a militia leader running extermination camp having killed thousands of civilians... and ask if you still love her and take her back home... is ...MAYBE... another thing...

(if you didn't take upon yourself to fix the problem quicker)

[Samurai_Jerk]

what prevent anyone to reclaim their nationality under initial condition ?

The country who's nationality you gave up. I'm sure there are plenty of countries that won't just automatically give you your nationality back.

Unless they wrote explicit special clause into citizenship laws and highlight them at renouncement time it's a good way to end on UN / European shitlist . And if they wrote it into laws, that's an even better way to end up on said shitlist.

Refusing to reinstate nationality that you previously had while the specific that allowed it the first time have not changed is nothing more than punition. And punition without breaking any laws or committing crimes is usually illegal. Not allowing a former citizen to regain citizenship just because of previous renunciation while allowing non citizen to access it is discrimination, a restriction of freedom -to follow the law, no less- for the citizen. Saying you are french because your parents are french, you can legally renounce your citizenship, then saying you can no longer be french despite still having french parents don't really sound sane... But sound really feudal... So it might be ok for england and other teacup/banana dictatorship but much harder to defend in normal republic.

You may be be right about France or the EU in general. I don't know. But what does your uneducated interpretation of EU law as it applies in France have to do with me or most of the rest of the world?

[Coligny]

I think it was because being under rules from the UN, the EU and its own law, what is done in France might get closer to a "best approach" on legal situation than say, Niger or Texas... This to counter the standard "they do as they see fit in their own country" (sure... bu bu but...) or "if they want this like everyone else they just should have done that anyway" despite "that" being borderline of a strawman...

This being in a thread...

Russell wrote:Having your human rights respected in this country only when you are a national?!?

In other words, the kind of benefits you extend to foreigners as a society determines how attractive you are to live in for those foreigners. Did I tell you that Japan wants to attract more foreigners, BTW?

Japan could also attract more foreigners by giving them a 100 million yen stipend for entering the country, granting them a plot of land inside the imperial palace grounds, or offering free weekly blow jobs. Obviously the policy clarification does not *help* attract foreigners, but trying to attract foreigners does not mean Japan has to extend every conceivable benefit. Anyway, I highly doubt availability of social welfare was an aspect attracting foreigners here to begin with, and I highly doubt fewer people will come because of the clarified policy.

Were "every social benefit" is weaseling for basic social welfare assistance... Which seems like a minimum tradeoff for a country who want to attract people for their skills... who come from education paid either by their original country or their family. Basically asking for a free -workforce- ride. Which could be understood for developing countries struggling to build a modern education system. But for one claiming to be civilized and the 3 world economy... There is a bit of a quenelle...
To translate it's basically an attempt at validating:
"come to work for us because we need you"
"don't forget to say thank you for giving you the visa allowing you to work for us"
"if you stop working, fuck off and don't let the door hit you on the way out"

When "a good foreigner" come to work in Japan, no matter how you twist it, it's not japan making a gift to the person to allow him to work here. It's this sorry shithole being dragged out of the mud thanks to a work force whose training and education was paid by another country. When a country beg for qualified workforce, usually it should eat its humble pie and shut the fuck up... Here... not so much...

[Yokohammer]

Havill,

I've been here 40+ years and am so entrenched that naturalising seems like a viable option, but there are a few niggling details that prevent me from making the plunge (in addition to the fact that I'm originally from a pretty decent country, but ... see below*).

Just out of interest ...
Have you been carded by the cops for "walking while appearing to be gaijin" or some similar offence since you naturalised? If so, how did it go? Also, have there been other situations where you've had to prove your Japanese nationality in a way that wouldn't be required of people who look Japanese?

* Here's an example of a "difficult to go home" scenario: In Japan I have family, my own home, and work that supports it all. Returning to my own country (Australia) would leave me with only the first item on that list. No home or job. At my age the remaining two would be extremely difficult to acquire, especially with the housing bubble that's going on down there. Also note that I did not originally come here of my own volition (I was only 12 years old at the time). My dad stayed and died here in 2004, which is another thing that kept me here all this time. So it's not that I don't have anywhere to go, but that if I did go I'd be in a very challenging situation which might actually end with the need for welfare. So now what ...

[matsuki]

When "a good foreigner" come to work in Japan, no matter how you twist it, it's not japan making a gift to the person to allow him to work here. It's this sorry shithole being dragged out of the mud thanks to a work force whose training and education was paid by another country. When a country beg for qualified workforce, usually it should eat its humble pie and shut the fuck up... Here... not so much...

Which is how the US attracts so many skilled workers, engineers, etc. Japan, on the otherhand, if we have foreigners roaming around the country, they might scare the old grandmas and granddads

Just out of interest ...
Have you been carded by the cops for "walking while appearing to be gaijin" or some similar offence since you naturalised? If so, how did it go? Also, have there been other situations where you've had to prove your Japanese nationality in a way that wouldn't be required of people who look Japanese?

I've always wondered this myself. If you say you're naturalized, they have no grounds to demand you show them your non-existent "gainjin card" or passport....but they have no way of disproving your naturalization claim. So...for the visa overstayers, theoretically, all they have to do if stopped is claim naturalized citizens. In practice, on the other hand, I can see Havill or someone like him being detained four hours, maybe even a day or two, while they investigate his claim.

[wagyl]

Perhaps the fact that your drivers licence has a honseki will be enough to satisfy them, so long as they have one of the chip readers. The half Taiwanese protagonist with Japanese nationality in Fuyajo was always getting hassled about it, so I suppose it depends which mafia/triad groups you hang around with in Kabukicho.

[matsuki]

Perhaps the fact that your drivers licence has a honseki will be enough to satisfy them, so long as they have one of the chip readers. The half Taiwanese protagonist with Japanese nationality in Fuyajo was always getting hassled about it, so I suppose it depends which mafia/triad groups you hang around with in Kabukicho.

That's assuming you have a DL, it's not too much of a stretch for people living in any larger city to not have one.

[omae mona]

When "a good foreigner" come to work in Japan, no matter how you twist it, it's not japan making a gift to the person to allow him to work here. It's this sorry shithole being dragged out of the mud thanks to a work force whose training and education was paid by another country. When a country beg for qualified workforce, usually it should eat its humble pie and shut the fuck up... Here... not so much...

Which is how the US attracts so many skilled workers, engineers, etc. Japan, on the otherhand, if we have foreigners roaming around the country, they might scare the old grandmas and granddads

Guys, I may have my facts wrong, but To the best of my recollection, I think the US is exactly like Japan in this regard. Neither country is really set up to allow workers on a work visa to receive welfare benefits. Both countries have a visa sponsor required to bring the worker in. The sponsor is required to certify they actually paying the employee properly (presumably so that the worker doesn't need welfare to begin with). But more importantly, the sponsor has to pledge that if SOMEHOW the visa holder ends up on public assistance anyway, the sponsor has to fully reimburse the government for the payouts. I have a feeling this requirement causes employers to think carefully about firing workers they've sponsored.

[wagyl]

Perhaps the fact that your drivers licence has a honseki will be enough to satisfy them, so long as they have one of the chip readers. The half Taiwanese protagonist with Japanese nationality in Fuyajo was always getting hassled about it, so I suppose it depends which mafia/triad groups you hang around with in Kabukicho.

That's assuming you have a DL, it's not too much of a stretch for people living in any larger city to not have one.

Plan B would be to carry around complimentary copies of your semi-autobiographical novel In Appropriate [sic] and show them your photo on the dust cover

....although if I had that weapon, I would probably be more likely to dig my heels in and refuse to help in any way, even if that would make life easier for me and for the police. There is a principle at stake, after all.

[havill]

Havill,

Have you been carded by the cops for "walking while appearing to be gaijin" or some similar offence since you naturalised? If so, how did it go? Also, have there been other situations where you've had to prove your Japanese nationality in a way that wouldn't be required of people who look Japanese?

Yes. Details here:

Becoming legally Japanese: Common types of Japanese legal domestic photo identification

and here (I didn't do this video, but it references the above). FF to 3m17s if you have attention deficit disorder:

[yanpa]

Perhaps the fact that your drivers licence has a honseki will be enough to satisfy them, so long as they have one of the chip readers. The half Taiwanese protagonist with Japanese nationality in Fuyajo was always getting hassled about it, so I suppose it depends which mafia/triad groups you hang around with in Kabukicho.

That's assuming you have a DL, it's not too much of a stretch for people living in any larger city to not have one.

Plan B would be to carry around complimentary copies of your semi-autobiographical novel In Appropriate [sic] and show them your photo on the dust cover

....although if I had that weapon, I would probably be more likely to dig my heels in and refuse to help in any way, even if that would make life easier for me and for the police. There is a principle at stake, after all.

Why not get some young children of mixed parentage involved in the standoff as well?

[Samurai_Jerk]

When "a good foreigner" come to work in Japan, no matter how you twist it, it's not japan making a gift to the person to allow him to work here. It's this sorry shithole being dragged out of the mud thanks to a work force whose training and education was paid by another country. When a country beg for qualified workforce, usually it should eat its humble pie and shut the fuck up... Here... not so much...

Which is how the US attracts so many skilled workers, engineers, etc. Japan, on the otherhand, if we have foreigners roaming around the country, they might scare the old grandmas and granddads

Guys, I may have my facts wrong, but To the best of my recollection, I think the US is exactly like Japan in this regard. Neither country is really set up to allow workers on a work visa to receive welfare benefits. Both countries have a visa sponsor required to bring the worker in. The sponsor is required to certify they actually paying the employee properly (presumably so that the worker doesn't need welfare to begin with). But more importantly, the sponsor has to pledge that if SOMEHOW the visa holder ends up on public assistance anyway, the sponsor has to fully reimburse the government for the payouts. I have a feeling this requirement causes employers to think carefully about firing workers they've sponsored.

But people with PR in the US can receive public assistance. That seems to be what most people are concerned about. I do agree that the Supreme Court probably made the correct decision given the law in Japan. However, I also think that law should be changed to at least allow public assistance for those with PR.

[omae mona]

Guys, I may have my facts wrong, but To the best of my recollection, I think the US is exactly like Japan in this regard. Neither country is really set up to allow workers on a work visa to receive welfare benefits. Both countries have a visa sponsor required to bring the worker in. The sponsor is required to certify they actually paying the employee properly (presumably so that the worker doesn't need welfare to begin with). But more importantly, the sponsor has to pledge that if SOMEHOW the visa holder ends up on public assistance anyway, the sponsor has to fully reimburse the government for the payouts. I have a feeling this requirement causes employers to think carefully about firing workers they've sponsored.

Confirmed. Partly, at least. In the U.S. , h1-b visa holders are not entitled to benefits from the most popular welfare programs, like TANF and SNAP. h1-b is the visa generally used for skilled workers.

Japan's not doing anything unusual here. Both countries clearly take the view that if the immigrant is not earning enough money to support themselves, they should no longer be in the country.

But people with PR in the US can receive public assistance. That seems to be what most people are concerned about. I do agree that the Supreme Court probably made the correct decision given the law in Japan. However, I also think that law should be changed to at least allow public assistance for those with PR.

Yes, but Coligny and choko were talking about attracting workers to Japan. Not PR.

[wangta]

Havill,

I've been here 40+ years and am so entrenched that naturalising seems like a viable option, but there are a few niggling details that prevent me from making the plunge (in addition to the fact that I'm originally from a pretty decent country, but ... see below*).

Just out of interest ...
Have you been carded by the cops for "walking while appearing to be gaijin" or some similar offence since you naturalised? If so, how did it go? Also, have there been other situations where you've had to prove your Japanese nationality in a way that wouldn't be required of people who look Japanese?

* Here's an example of a "difficult to go home" scenario: In Japan I have family, my own home, and work that supports it all. Returning to my own country (Australia) would leave me with only the first item on that list. No home or job. At my age the remaining two would be extremely difficult to acquire, especially with the housing bubble that's going on down there. Also note that I did not originally come here of my own volition (I was only 12 years old at the time). My dad stayed and died here in 2004, which is another thing that kept me here all this time. So it's not that I don't have anywhere to go, but that if I did go I'd be in a very challenging situation which might actually end with the need for welfare. So now what ...

Is that your own scenario? If you are an Aussie citizen whether or not that is your example above, it'd be a backwards step to cast it off for Japanese citizenship in my opinion.

I'm an Aussie and while I have grown well apart from my home city and home country in crucial respects, having spent a long time abroad in East Asia (with stints back in Oz without working there), few countries in the world offer so much in terms of welfare without contributions, government assistance, etc. I think there are too many Aussies who need to grow up and understand that because they didn't save their money or decided to have 3 or more kids by different fathers that they should not be automatically entitled to the redistributed money of others who saved and were responsible.

Aussies are the biggest whingers in the world re their finances and what too many of them perceive as 'unfairness' - which means they think it aint enough that they already earn a tax free income with multiple concessions and free services that sometimes put them above people who work and pay tax and end up with less. What other countries offer a retirement pension for people who have never paid into it? Most social systems in the world are tied to contributions - you pay, you get the pension. Not Australia. You blew your money? You get others' redistributed income to live off.

Not that I think you are that kind of person. I'm just saying that despite the Australian isolation from the world that makes too many of them think they are hard done by, it is still about the easiest society in the world for people to get free money, especially when they have done little to be responsible with their own. Low income Australians get the biggest financial transfers out of any society in the world from other Australians. They don't have people from local govt telling them to sell their belongings or saying because they have a car they can't have financial assistance - like in Japan.

Japan goes too far the other way. Plus if you have children there are all sorts of tax deductions, free money from the govt etc. If your rent is too high in proportion to your income you get rent relief.

Medicare is far cheaper than the Japanese National Health System - during my first time in Japan I was paying contributions on a mediocre salary that in Oz would have bought me private healthcare.Japan has all sorts of rules governing the fairly meagre assistance anybody gets from the govt. The Aussie taxation system allows more deductions. Why would any Australian give that up for the inflexibility of the Japanese system?

[Yokohammer]

Is that your own scenario? If you are an Aussie citizen whether or not that is your example above, it'd be a backwards step to cast it off for Japanese citizenship in my opinion.

... (trimmed to save cyberspace) ...

Yes, that's my scenario.

And I get what you're saying, but I like to work and make my own way. Welfare would be an absolute last resort for me. But as I mentioned above, that'd probably be where I'd be headed if I went back to Oz. I really think it's a great country, for the most part, by my personal situation is that, pushin' 60 as I am, I have no idea what I could possibly do to make a living if I went back. It might be possible to do some percentage of what I do now via the net, but I doubt that it would be enough to keep me and my family afloat. There are also family issues: i.e. the (Japanese) wife's ageing mother, the wife's ability to adapt, etc. When you've been here as long as I have there are tons of issues that make moving back difficult.

[Yokohammer]

Havill,

Have you been carded by the cops for "walking while appearing to be gaijin" or some similar offence since you naturalised? If so, how did it go? Also, have there been other situations where you've had to prove your Japanese nationality in a way that wouldn't be required of people who look Japanese?

Yes. Details here:

Becoming legally Japanese: Common types of Japanese legal domestic photo identification

and here (I didn't do this video, but it references the above). FF to 3m17s if you have attention deficit disorder:

... (Video removed) ...

OK, thanks. So you've never had a "confrontation" over something like that.

So what actually happens if the police doubt your "I am a Japanese national" story? Can they really check via some terminal in their patrol car so that the process is over and done with in a matter of minutes? And what if they're on foot in the city, with no patrol car? Do you get taken to the koban for a lengthy interrogation and check even if you're legally Japanese?

I can't find the details right now, but I seem to remember some relatively recent story about a Japanese woman who was detained and questioned because she "looked foreign."

Re the video: I don't think the police need a warrant to see your gaijin card. The law says that you must show it to a police officer, immigration officer, coast guard officer, etc. ... any authorised person ... if asked. There are a couple of other WTFs in there too. Kind of misleading and annoying, except for the basic premise that fucking with police officers is really stupid. Just show them the damn card if asked.

However, if holding Japanese nationality and yet looking foreign means that you have to be sure to have some form of proof on your person at all times ... driver's license, copy of juminhyou, or whatever ... that would make me quite uncomfortable. I know you legally don't have to, but if there's any chance that some cop who likes to throw his authority around (they're out there ... I've met a few) can ruin my day on a whim and then just laugh it off because he was "only doing his job," that's a problem.

[matsuki]

In these cases, you simply tell the officer you're Japanese. When this happens, a standoff occurs. If the police officer doesn't believe you, he/she may choose to investigate further. This could mean either bringing you to a place where your identity and nationality can be verified (a patrol car or police station where they have computers than can look up your identity or wherever your identification may be). Even if they do this and you turn out to be a Japanese national, you usually don't have the right to sue them unless extraordinary aggravating additional circumstances occurred (for example, a provable loss of money or problems with one's workplace occurred due to being detained).

Ideals and trying to make a point aside, I honestly believe there are indeed many asshole cops here that would detain you for proof. (having a bad day, just been berated and looking for an outlet, etc) On the other hand, if you speak Japanese and have something like a DL on you (even if it doesn't have the info they're after) any reasonable officer isn't going to go much further than that. I've probably only been "randomly" gaijin carded about 3 times here and 2 of them were at Narita...but when the nihonjinron stars align, I can still imagine an unlucky FG...errr naturalized Japanese getting occasionally fucked.

But people with PR in the US can receive public assistance. That seems to be what most people are concerned about. I do agree that the Supreme Court probably made the correct decision given the law in Japan. However, I also think that law should be changed to at least allow public assistance for those with PR.

Yes, but Coligny and choko were talking about attracting workers to Japan. Not PR.

Attracting skilled workers, attracting 3rd world labor doesn't take much effort.

I mean, it's been repeated a few times already but yeah, the court is just following the law as it is currently written so it's the law that should be changed.

[havill]

So what actually happens if the police doubt your "I am a Japanese national" story? Can they really check via some terminal in their patrol car so that the process is over and done with in a matter of minutes? And what if they're on foot in the city, with no patrol car? Do you get taken to the koban for a lengthy interrogation and check even if you're legally Japanese?

In theory, the ability to check a koseki from a patrol car (or from a handheld terminal or even a police issued cellphone) will become possible in 2015... that's when the technology "bits" come into alignment to make that a possibility. Whether the police immediately implement tools to this technology or not and when (and if they can legally) is a different question and I don't know the answer to that.

The ability to check a jūminhyō from a patrol car (or via radioing it in to a police station if they don't have a patrol car -- where they'll use the stations computers to check) exists now. And your jūminhyō has one's nationality on it.

From a police officer's perspective, the jūminhyō is usually more useful (home address, etc).

I've never heard or seen a verified (meaning a person with a real name that provides a verifiable account) story* of anybody being detained on the street because they doubted their claim of nationality sans id**. Hell, they even let me vote without ever checking any id. (← I think they should)

* But I can recommend a website or two that can provide plenty of anecdotes, all written by pseudonyms, about a "guy" they knew who knew a guy that was detained and raped and tortured by the police because of the color of their skin and lack of id even though they were a "citizen".

** I'm not counting airport immigration, overseas embassies, and ward/city offices obviously.

And speaking of airports, here's an incident where I was at Narita/Haneda and I did not have my official proof of Japanese nationality on me (yet) -- the one time when a Japanese national IS supposed to have proof of Japanese nationality on them -- and I was interrogated for about 10 to 15 minutes:

Becoming legally Japanese: Me, the illegal alien overstaying Japanese citizen
(yes, they let me go after looking up my Japanese nationality on a terminal ... from my U.S. passport):

[Samurai_Jerk]

But people with PR in the US can receive public assistance. That seems to be what most people are concerned about. I do agree that the Supreme Court probably made the correct decision given the law in Japan. However, I also think that law should be changed to at least allow public assistance for those with PR.

Yes, but Coligny and choko were talking about attracting workers to Japan. Not PR.

Attracting skilled workers, attracting 3rd world labor doesn't take much effort.

Skilled labor is attracted to the US because American employers pay well and are on the cutting edge in a lot of areas. People aren't going because they might be able to get welfare if they ever become a PR.

[Yokohammer]

... I've never heard or seen a verified (meaning a person with a real name that provides a verifiable account) story* of anybody being detained on the street because they doubted their claim of nationality sans id**. Hell, they even let me vote without ever checking any id. (← I think they should)

Thanks for all the info. About the voting thing, I believe they send you a hagaki that you show or hand in at the balloting place? That's supposed to be your proof of eligibility. But since they don't check ID some people try to scam the system by voting multiple times with hagaki received by others who couldn't be bothered voting themselves.

* But I can recommend a website or two that can provide plenty of anecdotes, all written by pseudonyms, about a "guy" they knew who knew a guy that was detained and raped and tortured by the police because of the color of their skin and lack of id even though they were a "citizen".

I think I know the site you're referring to. Thanks for the offer, but I think I'll cull my information from more level-headed sources.

[matsuki]

But people with PR in the US can receive public assistance. That seems to be what most people are concerned about. I do agree that the Supreme Court probably made the correct decision given the law in Japan. However, I also think that law should be changed to at least allow public assistance for those with PR.

Yes, but Coligny and choko were talking about attracting workers to Japan. Not PR.

Attracting skilled workers, attracting 3rd world labor doesn't take much effort.

Skilled labor is attracted to the US because American employers pay well and are on the cutting edge in a lot of areas. People aren't going because they might be able to get welfare if they ever become a PR.

I meant "in general" there are many incentives that jive with attracting skilled workers, not just this specific aspect nor just lots of talk of incentives with out anything to back them up.

[havill]

Thanks for all the info. About the voting thing, I believe they send you a hagaki that you show or hand in at the balloting place? That's supposed to be your proof of eligibility. But since they don't check ID some people try to scam the system by voting multiple times with hagaki received by others who couldn't be bothered voting themselves.

Correct. They send it to the address on your jūminhyō. You don't even need to register to vote. Naturalize, make your koseki, and voila, they start magically arriving in your mailbox (one envelope for the whole family, so your spouse's will be in the same one) with instructions for morons ("how to walk to your elementary school to vote") and early voting.

The voting voucher looks different for every prefecture, but I scanned one of mine and put it in this post:

Becoming legally Japanese: Voting in Japanese public elections

With all the election activity in Japan of late, I've now voted more times in Japan than I did in the United States. The last person I voted for in the U.S. was Obama in 2008; I was ineligible to vote in the States in 2012.

[wangta]

Is that your own scenario? If you are an Aussie citizen whether or not that is your example above, it'd be a backwards step to cast it off for Japanese citizenship in my opinion.

... (trimmed to save cyberspace) ...

Yes, that's my scenario.

And I get what you're saying, but I like to work and make my own way. Welfare would be an absolute last resort for me. But as I mentioned above, that'd probably be where I'd be headed if I went back to Oz. I really think it's a great country, for the most part, by my personal situation is that, pushin' 60 as I am, I have no idea what I could possibly do to make a living if I went back. It might be possible to do some percentage of what I do now via the net, but I doubt that it would be enough to keep me and my family afloat. There are also family issues: i.e. the (Japanese) wife's ageing mother, the wife's ability to adapt, etc. When you've been here as long as I have there are tons of issues that make moving back difficult.

I well understand. I am not saying Aussies shouldn't get for free what's available for free - just that every time I come back home I am reminded how little most Australians know about the rest of the world and what most people in it are not entitled to.

Of course a pension is necessary for those who don't have anything else because of circumstances - people who worked in the days before compulsory superannuation deductions, people who have had mostly part time work that gives little super in their retirement age, people who just can't make a decent living, people who are wasters and spend their money so they can go and live on other people's taxes.

But it's cringeworthy listening to Australians rant about how much more money they should be getting for making zero contributions to a pension that is worth far more per month than the J pension (and remember it's worth more even before the raft of concessions and freebies kick in to supplement it) for which Japanese pay a relative fortune over their working and non working lives. I think the Medicare system, child support and tax deductions for families etc are far superior to anything in Japan and most other countries and these make Japan look miserly by comparison.

But yes, the employment situation here for returning expats is horrendous without connections, family networks etc. When I left Japan after my first long stint and came back home, I couldn't get a look in at anything to do with my original profession. The fact I had lived and worked overseas at English teaching jobs (and mine the first time around were at the high end such as in big name companies etc) counted for nought. It was a grim experience so I went to work in Korea for a while which made me even more unemployable back in Oz.

The job situation now is even worse because our population has jumped without a corresponding jump in job opportunities unless you're in mining and a few other work areas. It really sucks for Australian youth because they are bearing the brunt of the increasing intake of people - youth unemployment is much higher than the official stats. I am nowhere near a youthful age and the age discrimination is everywhere. One thing that is especially galling about Australia is the hypocrisy - at least Asian countries unapologetically discriminate in the workforce while Australians talk bullshit about 'non discriminatory' policies in the workforce.

[wagyl]

1. No need to renew the SoR and no hassle of needing to re-qualify for SoR (you still need to renew the Residence Card, and you still need to have the Residence Card on your person†)
2. No connection or condition of your SoR to either work or your family (marriage/dependence on a PR/J spouse and/or family), and vice versa, no restriction on your need to be employed in a certain field or remain married to a J/PR spouse.

If I can add one more to your list... apropos to your comment about Tax PR below, my understanding is that you instantly become a tax permanent resident if you attain PR SoR, even if you have not yet met the 5 year threshold. So this is a minus. So for those folks married for 3 years that seem to be able to get PR now, beware that by doing so I think you're subjecting your worldwide income to Japanese taxes 2 years earlier than you would otherwise.

I do not think this is the case, and I dug out the latest tax guide to see whether it mentioned visa status at all in the definition of Permanent Resident [for tax purposes]. It doesn't. The rest of you don't have to rummage through that pile of documents on the floor in your office, it is also online as a pdf. And this makes logical sense (even though we should not expect logic in this field): it is perfectly possible that an Immigration permanent resident be outside of Japan for more than half of the time over a 10 year period. Where your visa status might come into play, is when there is a doubt about your tax residence status, and factors such as where your main residence is or where your centre of vital interests is, need to be considered.

On the other hand, if you have a cite supporting your understanding, I would be interested to see it.