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  • fuckedgaijin ‹ General ‹ F*cked News

No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Odd news from Japan and all things Japanese around the world.
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265 posts • Page 4 of 9 • 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 9

Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby Samurai_Jerk » Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:47 am

wagyl wrote:
omae mona wrote:
havill wrote:
  1. No need to renew the SoR and no hassle of needing to re-qualify for SoR (you still need to renew the Residence Card, and you still need to have the Residence Card on your person†)
  2. No connection or condition of your SoR to either work or your family (marriage/dependence on a PR/J spouse and/or family), and vice versa, no restriction on your need to be employed in a certain field or remain married to a J/PR spouse.


If I can add one more to your list... apropos to your comment about Tax PR below, my understanding is that you instantly become a tax permanent resident if you attain PR SoR, even if you have not yet met the 5 year threshold. So this is a minus. So for those folks married for 3 years that seem to be able to get PR now, beware that by doing so I think you're subjecting your worldwide income to Japanese taxes 2 years earlier than you would otherwise.

I do not think this is the case, and I dug out the latest tax guide to see whether it mentioned visa status at all in the definition of Permanent Resident [for tax purposes]. It doesn't. The rest of you don't have to rummage through that pile of documents on the floor in your office, it is also online as a pdf. And this makes logical sense (even though we should not expect logic in this field): it is perfectly possible that an Immigration permanent resident be outside of Japan for more than half of the time over a 10 year period. Where your visa status might come into play, is when there is a doubt about your tax residence status, and factors such as where your main residence is or where your centre of vital interests is, need to be considered.

On the other hand, if you have a cite supporting your understanding, I would be interested to see it.


I wouldn't put my trust in the fact that it's not mentioned. That's the kind of thing one shouldn't assume if it's really an issue for him.

I don't think logic really plays a part in it. It makes just as much sense to require PR's to report worldwide income. A lot governments look at PR as a special privilege that comes with extra responsibility. US green card holders are just as fucked tax wise as citizens regardless of where they reside.
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby wagyl » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:27 am

OK, I'll state my case. Bolding within quotes is mine.
Among residents, any individual of non Japanese nationality having domicile or residence in Japan for an aggregate period of five years or less within the last ten years is classified as a non-permanent resident.


"Any individual" seems to be pretty clear to me, especially because we are dealling with a document which is so anal that it will say
Any individual who came to live in Japan to learn science and practical arts is treated as having an occupation in Japan for the period of living for learning in Japan.

to qualify what it means by
Facts exist by which it can sufficiently be presumed that an individual has been living continuously for more than one year in Japan whether such individual has the Japanese nationality and has relatives who live together with such individual, or such individual has its occupation and assets in Japan.


So, I would be interested to see where Omae Mona gets his understanding from.

That little copy paste exercise also exposed the fact that the pdf file has hard returns at the ends of lines and sometimes hard spaces at the beginnings of subsequent lines rather than formatting paragraphs and indenting :roll: It must be a fun job when they do an amendment.
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby havill » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:35 am

Samurai_Jerk wrote:US green card holders are just as fucked tax wise as citizens regardless of where they reside.


Not immediately. You have to be a U.S. LPR for eight (8) years in America before the "you must do a 1040 for the IRS until you die or Renounce Your LPR* even if you don't live here and you're not a citizen" condition kicks in.

* AKA "I-407".
Last edited by havill on Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby matsuki » Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:06 pm

wagyl wrote:That little copy paste exercise also exposed the fact that the pdf file has hard returns at the ends of lines and sometimes hard spaces at the beginnings of subsequent lines rather than formatting paragraphs and indenting :roll: It must be a fun job when they do an amendment.


Have you seen the software/technique many Japanese write e-mails....especially bad when I try and cop/paste txt from one into whatever I'm designing. Outlook seems like the boogieman here so they use the JDM - WIN95 equivalent with hard returns at the end of every line.
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby omae mona » Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:35 pm

Sorry wagyl. You are probably right; your material looks pretty solid to me. My source was an accountant who told me this years ago. Very possible that I have mis-remembered, the accountant was wrong, or the rule subsequently changed. Unfortunately the accountant is no longer in my employ, so I can't really ask him again.

I hate when people confidently post bad information to the internet, the false info spreads, and refuses to die. I could be the culprit this time! :oops:
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby wagyl » Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:06 pm

Your conscience is saved by your "my understanding is that." 8-)
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby Yokohammer » Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:33 pm

A bit more info ...

A closer look at the supreme court welfare ruling
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby Russell » Sat Jul 26, 2014 4:47 pm

Yokohammer wrote:A bit more info ...

A closer look at the supreme court welfare ruling

I very much agree with the gist of this article.
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby Mike Oxlong » Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:17 pm

Foreign Talent Needs A Career - Can Japan Provide It?
With the domestic talent pool shrinking, Japan desperately needs foreign talent to fill the gap and revive its ailing economy. But judging from the overwhelming response to a previous piece of ours on the topic, foreign talent doesn’t seem to be anxious to head for Japan any time soon.

The problem? Japan isn’t prepared to provide what foreign talent needs — a career.

For a simple reason: The lack of the right “regime,” the socioeconomic conditions and cultural mindset that will allow talented individuals develop and advance a career, which makes it an unpopular destination for talent vis-à-vis competing international destinations.

“I live and work in Japan” comments one reader. “The point system to get into Japan is extremely difficult to fulfill: in 2012-13 they had roughly over 1000 people apply. They had hoped for a lot more than this (5000). Japan will not be able to overcome its shortage of workers: aging population, very xenophobic, very nationalistic, it is extremely difficult to become a permanent resident (you are always a NJ), the politicians are old, from the same families and hold onto old, antiquated social and political beliefs that stymie solutions to the worsening problems faced not only for a shortage of workers but a society: a society that is insufferably complacent and is inept at adopting to the changing world around them.”

That’s certainly a sharp contrast with competing international talent destinations like US, Canada, and Australia.

“US is open society and it attracts most of talent from all over the world,” comments another reader. “Then who on earth wants to work in Japan? A decade ago, many young Chinese went to Japan to study and stayed there temporarily. Most of them either came to US or went back to China. They all complained that the society is very conservative. It is hard to get to the top level of the company. The glass ceiling drives many good people away.”

The trouble is that after two “lost decades” and a wave of reforms, things got worse than better.

“Having lived and worked here for the past 30 years, I can say that things are going from bad to worse. It is incredible to see the insularity and inward looking attitude of mind of the younger generations of Japanese,” comments a third reader. “But by and large, Japanese feel uneasy around foreigners in the work environment because foreigners bring a different type of ambition. One does get the feeling that Japanese under 40 or 45 have had it too easy and are unwilling to adapt to an already changed world, never mind a rapidly changing world.”

While the two lost decades haven’t changed Japanese attitudes toward foreigners, subdued economic growth has depressed wages.

“As a software engineer who came here for personal reasons, I would advise anyone considering Japan to seriously reconsider,” writes a fourth reader. “Between the brutal hours, incredible inefficiency, low salary (you can get 60% of what you can get in the US, if you are lucky, and costs that rival Silicon Valley), and incredibly outdated technology with outdated development methodologies, Japan is a dead-end for your career. Go to the US, go to Europe, go to Australia, those are the real hotbeds of talent and innovation. Coming here was the biggest mistake of my professional career.”

The bottom line: Foreign talent doesn’t seem anxious to head for Japan anytime soon. Because the country has yet to develop the socioeconomic conditions and cultural mindset that will allow foreign talented individuals to develop and advance their careers.

via Forbes
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby Yokohammer » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:10 pm

Mike Oxlong wrote:Foreign Talent Needs A Career - Can Japan Provide It?

Nice one.

A few zingers in there that hit the nail pretty much right on the head.
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby Wage Slave » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:27 pm

Agreed. Right on the money - And worse the same is pretty much true for Japanese talent. It didn't mention salariman culture by name and I reckon that's to blame for a good chunk of it. The greatest unreconstructed, dead, stifling weight in the world. And I am not even sure how traditional it really is .......Anyone who knows more than me care to have a stab at dating it?
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby omae mona » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:35 pm

Mike Oxlong wrote:Foreign Talent Needs A Career - Can Japan Provide It?
That’s certainly a sharp contrast with competing international talent destinations like US, Canada, and Australia.


I am curious how many of us from the US, Canada, and Australia have witnessed foreigners having a successful career in our home countries. If you've witnessed them, how many of them were unable to speak, read, and write English at anywhere close to an adult/professional level?

Now, think about how many foreigners you know in Japan that can speak, read, and write Japanese at an adult/professional level.

Isn't this 99% of the problem?
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby Wage Slave » Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:02 pm

omae mona wrote:
Mike Oxlong wrote:Foreign Talent Needs A Career - Can Japan Provide It?
That’s certainly a sharp contrast with competing international talent destinations like US, Canada, and Australia.


I am curious how many of us from the US, Canada, and Australia have witnessed foreigners having a successful career in our home countries. If you've witnessed them, how many of them were unable to speak, read, and write English at anywhere close to an adult/professional level?

Now, think about how many foreigners you know in Japan that can speak, read, and write Japanese at an adult/professional level.

Isn't this 99% of the problem?


It is a big chunk for sure - but then English has been taught far better and far more at (gasp!) public expense than Japanese has been. Remember the nurses brought here for a few years and then sent home because they couldn't pass the language tests. How good was the teaching and how much were they getting? What is the equivalent of the British Council in Japan? Have a look at the language lessons available to migrants locally - Are they just a group of volunteers doing what they can or is it proper?
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby Russell » Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:34 pm

Wage Slave wrote:Agreed. Right on the money - And worse the same is pretty much true for Japanese talent. It didn't mention salariman culture by name and I reckon that's to blame for a good chunk of it. The greatest unreconstructed, dead, stifling weight in the world. And I am not even sure how traditional it really is .......Anyone who knows more than me care to have a stab at dating it?

I once heard that the Samurai were the Sarariman of their day.

But anyway, I think you hit the nail on its head. Japanese society fails at benefiting from the talents of its working population. It is somewhat adverse to new and fresh ideas, and that is where its failure to capitalize on foreign talent is rooted.

I do think the situation has gotten better over the last decades, but this may also depend on the organization at which one works.
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby yanpa » Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:47 pm

omae mona wrote:
Mike Oxlong wrote:Foreign Talent Needs A Career - Can Japan Provide It?
That’s certainly a sharp contrast with competing international talent destinations like US, Canada, and Australia.


I am curious how many of us from the US, Canada, and Australia have witnessed foreigners having a successful career in our home countries. If you've witnessed them, how many of them were unable to speak, read, and write English at anywhere close to an adult/professional level?


Speaking for Germany, excluding parachuted-in management in big companies like Deutsche Bank and employees of foreign companies, I don't recall encountering much in the way of monoglot "expat" professionals.

omae mona wrote:Now, think about how many foreigners you know in Japan that can speak, read, and write Japanese at an adult/professional level.


Well you see old boy, Japan never had the decency to let it self be colonized by a civilised nation, so the natives never really got any practice in kowtowing to the whims of foreign professionals, who are therefore being cheated of their right to turn up and do their business with nary a smattering of the native tongue.

But seriously, Japan is still too isolationist for its own good. Personally it makes sense for me to work here due to the particular line of work I'm in, but I would never ever work for a "typical" Japanese company. I know one promising young guy who ended up employed by a medium-sized engineering company doing something IT-related; of course they put him on the 新入社員 career path with the shitty salary that implies; didn't take him long to jump ship to 3x the salary in the US.
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby Yokohammer » Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:53 pm

I think the deadweight ratio in Japan's workforce rose significantly the day some bright spark came up with the concept of lifetime employment. Won't get fired. Won't be judged on performance, just seniority. So why bother? Just trudge in to the office every day, pretend to push a pencil around, and eventually you'll get to be bucho. Of course that turned to be an unrealistic plan, but a lot of people believed it and it sort of set the tone for the sarariman lifestyle. Big mistake.
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby omae mona » Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:54 pm

Wage Slave wrote:
omae mona wrote:
Mike Oxlong wrote:Foreign Talent Needs A Career - Can Japan Provide It?
That’s certainly a sharp contrast with competing international talent destinations like US, Canada, and Australia.


I am curious how many of us from the US, Canada, and Australia have witnessed foreigners having a successful career in our home countries. If you've witnessed them, how many of them were unable to speak, read, and write English at anywhere close to an adult/professional level?

Now, think about how many foreigners you know in Japan that can speak, read, and write Japanese at an adult/professional level.

Isn't this 99% of the problem?


It is a big chunk for sure - but then English has been taught far better and far more at (gasp!) public expense than Japanese has been. Remember the nurses brought here for a few years and then sent home because they couldn't pass the language tests. How good was the teaching and how much were they getting? What is the equivalent of the British Council in Japan? Have a look at the language lessons available to migrants locally - Are they just a group of volunteers doing what they can or is it proper?


I don't disagree. But I think most foreigners coming to English-speaking countries for their careers already knew English before arrival. English is taught worldwide. It's not due to the efforts of the British Council or any government programs run by English speaking countries. That's not to say the Japanese government couldn't do anything to increase the number of Japanese speakers; they could do a lot, and the current efforts are definitely pathetic.

I seriously take issue with the author's main point:
For a simple reason: The lack of the right “regime,” the socioeconomic conditions and cultural mindset that will allow talented individuals develop and advance a career, which makes it an unpopular destination for talent vis-à-vis competing international destinations.


What a melodramatic bunch of crap, not backed up by any facts. The "simple reason" is not some "cultural mindset". I'm pretty sure the "simple reason" is that Japanese people don't freakin' speak English, and nobody else freakin' speaks Japanese.

I'm really curious if this author looked at any other "international talent destinations" where English is not spoken. Are there any?

Japan is probably not ever going to attract foreign talent for careers, not during our lifetime. What they might do is attract foreign *manpower*, the kind that doesn't need to read, write, or speak to do their jobs.
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby omae mona » Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:01 pm

yanpa wrote:But seriously, Japan is still too isolationist for its own good. Personally it makes sense for me to work here due to the particular line of work I'm in, but I would never ever work for a "typical" Japanese company. I know one promising young guy who ended up employed by a medium-sized engineering company doing something IT-related; of course they put him on the 新入社員 career path with the shitty salary that implies; didn't take him long to jump ship to 3x the salary in the US.


I agree with you and have a similar opinion about being in a "typical" Japanese company. But we're from G7 nations with typically great working conditions and wages, so we have a better choice. Think about the perspective of well educated people from just about any Asian country (and there are a lot of them, really, quite enough to fill the talent pool Japan needs). They would be THRILLED to take the shitty salary, compulsory morning calisthenics, overtime, commute from hell, etc. I think the reason they can't get the job is basically just that they speak the wrong language.
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby yanpa » Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:22 pm

omae mona wrote:
yanpa wrote:But seriously, Japan is still too isolationist for its own good. Personally it makes sense for me to work here due to the particular line of work I'm in, but I would never ever work for a "typical" Japanese company. I know one promising young guy who ended up employed by a medium-sized engineering company doing something IT-related; of course they put him on the 新入社員 career path with the shitty salary that implies; didn't take him long to jump ship to 3x the salary in the US.


I agree with you and have a similar opinion about being in a "typical" Japanese company. But we're from G7 nations with typically great working conditions and wages, so we have a better choice. Think about the perspective of well educated people from just about any Asian country (and there are a lot of them, really, quite enough to fill the talent pool Japan needs). They would be THRILLED to take the shitty salary, compulsory morning calisthenics, overtime, commute from hell, etc. I think the reason they can't get the job is basically just that they speak the wrong language.


Too tired to spray more than anecdotes, but I saw an interesting programme (on that pesky NHK station) about recruiting foreigners (the non-G7 kind) for low-wage industries like old people caring (fuck, what's the English term), seems they are trying to recruit Vietnamese but Germany has hit on the same idea, and the wages in Germany are better and the conditions less onerous (no need to study German beforehand, etc., whereas Japan is demanding some level of Japan-specific pre-qualification).
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby Coligny » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:09 am

Stuff is getting a major vomit inducing taste...

"think at all those third world darkies that would be thrilled to eat from our trash..."

After all, we already use them in sweat shop for manufacturing, why not import some for the service industry...

Skweaky keyword here: "well educated people from just about any Asian country"

If they are educated, they don't need to come too take shit in Japan...

If they are not, and need any job... that's not a reason to treat them as subhumans.
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby omae mona » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:15 am

Coligny wrote:If they are educated, they don't need to come too take shit in Japan...


Given that you've apparently never had to worry about money in your life, and given that you apparently never leave the house to meet real people, I'm not surprised you hold that opinion.

I know people trained in their home country in a career requiring multiple professional certifications, where it was going just fine. They are now in Japan doing unskilled, not terribly dignified work because they had an opportunity to get a visa, and they earn a lot more money this way.

If they are not, and need any job... that's not a reason to treat them as subhumans.


I'm not sure which situation you're talking about (Japan office work?) but I think you will find your First World Problems are not shared by most people in the world. The idea of a fulfilling career, nice work environment, and a nice work-life balance are important to people like me, and Japan company standards are generally not up to par compared to what I can find elsewhere. But talk to somebody from south Asia. They don't care that work is not fun when they're earning 5+ times as they would otherwise. And I think they'd laugh at the idea of a Japan office environment being described as "subhuman". Subhuman is those factories with sweltering temperatures, no bathroom breaks, 12+ hour days, and locked doors so you're guaranteed to die when a fire breaks out. Subhuman is not having to spend 2 hours stapling papers because your butthead bucho said so.

I seriously think Japan needs to change the way its businesses work. Not just to attract foreigners, but also for the sake of productivity and for the sake of Japanese people who work there. I am not defending it. I'm just saying these pundits, writing that the primary cause of the lack of foreigners working in Japan is the work environment, are full of shit. The primary cause is language. Making the work environment nicer is a minor tweak. It won't result in significantly more people wanting to or able to immigrate into Japan. What will: adopting English as the workplace language, or teaching a lot of foreigners Japanese.
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby Samurai_Jerk » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:37 am

omae mona wrote:I am curious how many of us from the US, Canada, and Australia have witnessed foreigners having a successful career in our home countries. If you've witnessed them, how many of them were unable to speak, read, and write English at anywhere close to an adult/professional level?

Now, think about how many foreigners you know in Japan that can speak, read, and write Japanese at an adult/professional level.

Isn't this 99% of the problem?


I agree with you that this is a major barrier and can explain why a lot of people don't move up the career ladder. However, having worked in recruitment for a long time now I can tell you there are more Japanese speaking foreign professionals out there than you think. Most of the one's I've met were from Asia though. The typical profile is someone who came here right after high school, spent a year or two learning Japanese before entering a good Japanese university (and often going to grad school as well), join a Japanese company after graduation, and successfully working in an all Japanese environment for five to ten years. However, they're still treated like low-level employees no matter how well they perform. A lot of them are never even offered permanent positions and are kept on one-year contracts that get renewed every year which means they don't get the job security or benefits of a Japanese employee and never get to become managers. By the time I meet them they either have PR or have naturalized as Japanese citizens and are committed to staying in Japan for what are often personal reasons but they've given up on working for a Japanese company and want to work for a non-Japanese MNC. That can often mean more than doubling their salary immediately and making more progress in their career in two years than they did in that last five to ten.

Here's the thing about how language ability is often evaluated in Japan. A lot of Japanese hiring managers only have two standards: you're native or you're not. And if you're not, we're not hiring you no matter how fluent you are. That's a major difference from countries that are able to attract foreign talent. Can you imagine a talented candidate in the US getting rejected because he had an accent when he spoke English?
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby Russell » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:59 am

Japan does pay good salaries, except it is to the wrong people...
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby wagyl » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:34 am

Samurai_Jerk wrote:The typical profile is someone who came here right after high school, spent a year or two learning Japanese before entering a good Japanese university (and often going to grad school as well), join a Japanese company after graduation, and successfully working in an all Japanese environment for five to ten years. However, they're still treated like low-level employees no matter how well they perform. A lot of them are never even offered permanent positions and are kept on one-year contracts that get renewed every year which means they don't get the job security or benefits of a Japanese employee and never get to become managers. By the time I meet them they either have PR or have naturalized as Japanese citizens and are committed to staying in Japan for what are often personal reasons but they've given up on working for a Japanese company


Quoted for truth. The chronology is a little different, in that I built a career back home before coming here and didn't go to university here, but in nine years in a Japanese company in a Japanese work environment, of annually renewed contracts, there was never any opportunity for advancement, and they even declined to go sponsor for my PR so I did it independent of my job. After all that they were mighty surprised --and inconvenienced -- when I made the decision not to renew that contract for a tenth year. And it wasn't a particularly curmudgeonly company, they just didn't ever look at things from the other side, or think for one minute as to how much that might be a slap in the face to any plans I might have. I still get asked back from time to time, so they weren't upset with performance...

That said, there are a few Japanese escapees from that company too, so the locals are getting the idea there days as well.
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby omae mona » Tue Aug 05, 2014 12:10 pm

I agree with both SJ and wagyl that probably far too many Japanese companies make it impossible for even the most qualified foreigners to make career progress. I personally know quite a few people that are exceptions, but I do think they are unusual cases. There are a lot of companies with policies that are effectively racist and self-defeating.

I'm just saying that this is a second order effect when we're talking about the broad demographic change many people seem to agree Japan needs. Economists and people in the government are not, as far as I know, saying "Japan needs more foreign leaders in business". They are saying "Japan needs more foreign workers". Career progress isn't needed; it's OK if foreigners stay at the bottom of the chain. And as I was pointing out before, I think there is plenty of supply of workers who are perfectly happy with this.

I think Japan *should* make the work environment more attractive to foreign talent, but this is to solve a different problem than what that article purported to be about. Making the work environment more attractive to foreign talent, I think, will help Japanese companies be competitive globally. But as for solving the impending demographic crisis, I think they just need to get people in the door who can somehow communicate with their Japanese colleagues.



Samurai_Jerk wrote:However, they're still treated like low-level employees no matter how well they perform. A lot of them are never even offered permanent positions and are kept on one-year contracts that get renewed every year which means they don't get the job security or benefits of a Japanese employee and never get to become managers.


This is awful. On the flip side, I know a lot of Japanese people are also stuck on contract employee tracks, though I'm not sure if this applies as much to salaryman jobs as to retail type of work. And the tides seem to be turning (as companies are starting to have trouble hiring, they're reverting to seishain hires, from what I've read). I'm certain it's much more prounounced and abusive for foreigners, though, as you are pointing out.

Here's the thing about how language ability is often evaluated in Japan. A lot of Japanese hiring managers only have two standards: you're native or you're not. And if you're not, we're not hiring you no matter how fluent you are. That's a major difference from countries that are able to attract foreign talent. Can you imagine a talented candidate in the US getting rejected because he had an accent when he spoke English?


Actually, yes. It would be very carefully *not* documented. But outside of fields where there is intense competition for talent (e.g. high tech fields), I think there is still bias. If you're a woman or minority (especially with an accent) you are still less likely to get the job or the promotion than the U.S. born-and-bred white guy you're competing against. The difference is that in the U.S. this is illegal, but it's still virtually impossible to extinguish the behavior because it's usually impossible to prove. It would never be as explicit and clear cut as the case you described above, but yeah, I think it happens to a degree.
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby matsuki » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:14 pm

yanpa wrote:
omae mona wrote:
yanpa wrote:But seriously, Japan is still too isolationist for its own good. Personally it makes sense for me to work here due to the particular line of work I'm in, but I would never ever work for a "typical" Japanese company. I know one promising young guy who ended up employed by a medium-sized engineering company doing something IT-related; of course they put him on the 新入社員 career path with the shitty salary that implies; didn't take him long to jump ship to 3x the salary in the US.


I agree with you and have a similar opinion about being in a "typical" Japanese company. But we're from G7 nations with typically great working conditions and wages, so we have a better choice. Think about the perspective of well educated people from just about any Asian country (and there are a lot of them, really, quite enough to fill the talent pool Japan needs). They would be THRILLED to take the shitty salary, compulsory morning calisthenics, overtime, commute from hell, etc. I think the reason they can't get the job is basically just that they speak the wrong language.


Too tired to spray more than anecdotes, but I saw an interesting programme (on that pesky NHK station) about recruiting foreigners (the non-G7 kind) for low-wage industries like old people caring (fuck, what's the English term), seems they are trying to recruit Vietnamese but Germany has hit on the same idea, and the wages in Germany are better and the conditions less onerous (no need to study German beforehand, etc., whereas Japan is demanding some level of Japan-specific pre-qualification).


If Japan is the only place that is willing to take you, I can understand sucking it up and becoming FG for the "upgrade" in life....but basically, if you're a skilled worker in a fucked country, and you are given the choice between Canada, the US, etc., and Japan...Japan don't match up well from any angle except maybe "closer to home." Even if all other things were equal, you need to also consider what you can get for you money in each country...and since most likely you won't be living in the inaka here, that isn't much. Even that is ignoring the sinking ship that is Japan's economy. Land of the rising sun? How about land of the setting sun?
Last edited by matsuki on Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby IparryU » Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:10 pm

chokonen888 wrote:if you're a skilled worker in a fucked country, and you are given the choice between Canada, the US, etc., and Japan...Japan don't match up well from any angle except maybe "closer to home." Even if all other thinks were equal, you need to also consider what you can get for you money in each country...and since most likely you won't be living in the inaka here, that isn't much.


Canada pls.
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby Russell » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:44 pm

chokonen888 wrote:Even that is ignoring the sinking ship that is Japan's economy. Land of the rising sun? How about land of the setting sun?

I like your suggestion "Land of the sinking ship".

And it's basically the same, because from the perspective of a sinking ship the sun is always rising...
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby wagyl » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:04 pm

Russell wrote:I like your suggestion "Land of the sinking ship".

Flyjin are rats?
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Re: No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

Postby Samurai_Jerk » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:22 am

omae mona wrote:This is awful. On the flip side, I know a lot of Japanese people are also stuck on contract employee tracks, though I'm not sure if this applies as much to salaryman jobs as to retail type of work. And the tides seem to be turning (as companies are starting to have trouble hiring, they're reverting to seishain hires, from what I've read). I'm certain it's much more prounounced and abusive for foreigners, though, as you are pointing out.


People everywhere in the world get stuck in dead end jobs with no career path because not everyone can become a manager and some people don't have what it takes to move ahead. However, the difference is that in a lot of Japanese companies that is the default for foreigners regardless of their ability.

Actually, yes. It would be very carefully *not* documented. But outside of fields where there is intense competition for talent (e.g. high tech fields), I think there is still bias. If you're a woman or minority (especially with an accent) you are still less likely to get the job or the promotion than the U.S. born-and-bred white guy you're competing against. The difference is that in the U.S. this is illegal, but it's still virtually impossible to extinguish the behavior because it's usually impossible to prove. It would never be as explicit and clear cut as the case you described above, but yeah, I think it happens to a degree.


Of course there is discrimination in the US in a lot of areas but in my experience (which I'll admit is not a scientific study) country of origin and foreign accent are not huge barriers to success. I also think that these days discrimination in the US is in general not so much a policy (not even unofficially) of not promoting women/minorities/gays/foreigners as it is people in power promoting employees that they get along with the most. In other words, if you're a straight white guy from an Ivy League school, you're more likely to hit it off with people from a similar background. The same goes for the nerds in Silicon Valley. The question then is which is worse? Outright bigoted policies or the insidious nature of unintentional soft discrimination that all of us are guilty of on some level or another.

For the record, things like age and sex discrimination are illegal in Japan but there is no way to enforce it.
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