No Welfare for Foreigners – Supreme Court

[Wage Slave]

I think you need to consider the fundamental human need to belong ... to identify with some sort of home base.

If people are denied the "right" to identify with wherever they feel they should belong, if they feel disenfranchised, their loyalties will naturally gravitate to somewhere else. If there's some sort of ancestral homeland, that's where the focus is likely to go. There's nothing unusual about that. It's just human nature. And for Japan, a country that still insists on keeping second and third generation residents at arms length, I think it is a huge problem that is still fermenting and will burst out of its bubble and do some serious ass-biting at some point in the future.

Hammer, I really like this explanation.

It very well sums up the feelings that ethnic residents may have in one paragraph.

Agreed. And that is why inclusion shot up the policy agenda. It doesn't only apply to immigrants. If you want to undermine gangs and organised crime, revive inner city areas, get the best from your employees and so on, then that's the way to do it. Make sure people feel and know they belong and they will pay you back in spades. Exclude them and they will naturally gravitate somewhere else.

[Hijinx]

The more Japan reminds me that I'm not part of their society, the more anti-social acts I commit. For example, I started littering recently. Only in the cities, which I already consider dumps.

[Wage Slave]

This is a very important point that I think most died in the wool Japan-Bashers forget. Have any of you been to Akihabara lately? I have. If there is one single intersection in any country that displays the vitality and potential of that land, surely that is it. People will tell you that Japan is done, Japan is dead, Japan is yesterday's news.................those people forget that Japan has not just anime, but also manga.

That's a one two punch if I ever saw one

Actually, not only anime but also manga and if that wasn't enough, characters as well! Japan's future has never been more secure or rosy.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Based on a purported and often loudly stated loyalty to a state and nation most have never even visited and have no connection to

I don't know that that's most of them though. Those are just the ones you realize are SPR's because they are vocal assholes with chips on their shoulders.

[matsuki]

The more Japan reminds me that I'm not part of their society, the more anti-social acts I commit. For example, I started littering recently. Only in the cities, which I already consider dumps.

That's kind of a different issue....the lack of trashcans in public here and the demand that you "bring your trash and dirty diapers home with you" is just shitty for everyone.

[kurogane]

If people are denied the "right" to identify with wherever they feel they should belong, if they feel disenfranchised, their loyalties will naturally gravitate to somewhere else. If there's some sort of ancestral homeland, that's where the focus is likely to go. There's nothing unusual about that. It's just human nature. And for Japan, a country that still insists on keeping second and third generation residents at arms length, I think it is a huge problem that is still fermenting and will burst out of its bubble and do some serious ass-biting at some point in the future.

I fully agree with your rampantly emotional take on the history of all this, and restate my objections based on its emocentricity. How are they kept at arm's length these days, by which I mean since about 10 or so years ago when they reformed those horrid Japanification aspects of the naturalisation process???? They aren't. They are self-ghettofying. I understand the emotional aspects of which you so evocatively speak, and spit on the same. Emotion is a weakness and a blight. It is the shortest route to self-destruction you earthlings have yet found. Japan may have lots to answer for historically, but SPRs can naturalise in a 5 minute visit to the ward office or Immigration office. And they should. To not do so is to choose to be a fuckhead, though as Samurai Jerk noted, there is a distinction to be made between actual practising and loudly avowed Fuckheaded SPRs and those SPRs who are simply and quietly fucked in the head. Also, there's only 116 of them. No ass-biting forecasted or even imaginable. They aren't even a bum pimple; just a short, sad chapter of a long and sad history that isn't told mostly because nobody cares and it doesn't matter all that much. Which makes it even sadder, of course.

You earthlings need to have a pull and get a grip on all this emocentric pseudo-rationality before a Nomad like spectre appears and sterliises all of you as imperfect biological units. And the first step should be for every living SPR to naturalise by the end of the year.

And again, I have a sneaky feeling the clarity of the distinction between SPRs and White Doods That Came to Japan and got PR is being muddled somewhat. By the former I mean the ex-colonial peoples that remained in Japan after the bombs fell and were denied citizenship by the vagaries of the occupation administration and the subsequent calumnies and malfeasance of the Japanese state. By the latter I mean the 16 guys who don't even count by any standard or any measure.

Also, I completely agree with what Brown Cow wrote. I also plan to hold my breath until the end of time waiting for Lotte to re-issue the Almond Big Bar or die trying. It was truly the best mass produced chocolate bar ever, and they simply stopped making it. Where is the justice there????

[Hijinx]

The more Japan reminds me that I'm not part of their society, the more anti-social acts I commit. For example, I started littering recently. Only in the cities, which I already consider dumps.

That's kind of a different issue....the lack of trashcans in public here and the demand that you "bring your trash and dirty diapers home with you" is just shitty for everyone.

Speaking of shitty, I think my next act will be to take a dump in a park. Or maybe on one of those gateball fields the old farts use.

[kurogane]

Wouldn't that make you a part of Japanese society, rather than apart from it????

If you really want to mess with their heads, next time you use a public toilet, flush it. Twice.

[Yokohammer]

I fully agree with your rampantly emotional take on the history of all this, and restate my objections based on its emocentricity. How are they kept at arm's length these days, by which I mean since about 10 or so years ago when they reformed those horrid Japanification aspects of the naturalisation process???? They aren't. They are self-ghettofying. I understand the emotional aspects of which you so evocatively speak, and spit on the same. Emotion is a weakness and a blight. It is the shortest route to self-destruction you earthlings have yet found. Japan may have lots to answer for historically, but SPRs can naturalise in a 5 minute visit to the ward office or Immigration office. And they should. To not do so is to choose to be a fuckhead, though as Samurai Jerk noted, there is a distinction to be made between actual practising and loudly avowed Fuckheaded SPRs and those SPRs who are simply and quietly fucked in the head. Also, there's only 116 of them. No ass-biting forecasted or even imaginable. They aren't even a bum pimple; just a short, sad chapter of a long and sad history that isn't told mostly because nobody cares and it doesn't matter all that much. Which makes it even sadder, of course.

You earthlings need to have a pull and get a grip on all this emocentric pseudo-rationality before a Nomad like spectre appears and sterliises all of you as imperfect biological units. And the first step should be for every living SPR to naturalise by the end of the year.

And again, I have a sneaky feeling the clarity of the distinction between SPRs and White Doods That Came to Japan and got PR is being muddled somewhat. By the former I mean the ex-colonial peoples that remained in Japan after the bombs fell and were denied citizenship by the vagaries of the occupation administration and the subsequent calumnies and malfeasance of the Japanese state. By the latter I mean the 16 guys who don't even count by any standard or any measure.

Also, I completely agree with what Brown Cow wrote. I also plan to hold my breath until the end of time waiting for Lotte to re-issue the Almond Big Bar or die trying. It was truly the best mass produced chocolate bar ever, and they simply stopped making it. Where is the justice there????

Only 116 of them. ... 16 guys ...

What the heck are you talking about?

... SPRs can naturalise in a 5 minute visit to the ward office or immigration office ...

Nope. Applications for Japanese nationality are handled at the 法務局 (Legal Affairs Bureau) or a regional Legal Affairs Bureau. Approval commonly takes 6 to 8 months for SPR. It can be complicated and time consuming, so many SPR choose to hire a notary public to represent them, make the multiple visits required, and do the detail work.

I think you need to get a few facts straight before attempting to argue this one.

Also, there's nothing "rampantly emotional" about what I said. I'm talking about human nature. The thing that drives every human being on the planet. It dictates everything we do. And that means you too.

[wangta]

Still, Japan has a young and growing population and a dynamic economy with obviously rosy prospects so doesn't have to worry about all that stuff eh?

This is a very important point that I think most died in the wool Japan-Bashers forget. Have any of you been to Akihabara lately? I have. If there is one single intersection in any country that displays the vitality and potential of that land, surely that is it. People will tell you that Japan is done, Japan is dead, Japan is yesterday's news.................those people forget that Japan has not just anime, but also manga.

That's a one two punch if I ever saw one or I don't have a PhD in International Global Developmentalist Economics.

Which I don't, btw.


BTW, is there any advanced country that actually does give welfare to non-residents?????? I would be surprised. I am quite sure foreign workers can't even collect on unemployment in Canada even if they have paid premiums. PRs are different because it's Canada.

And, just to Wagyl it up, .................EDIT...................SORRY!!!!!! .................END EDIT

That should get YokoHammer going again

Maybe Kurogane has drunk a lot of vodka laced with maple syrup.

The issue here (correct me if I am wrong) is that this woman is actually a permanent resident of Japan who happened to be born in China. And of course she is a foreigner living in Japan under the legal status of Permanent Resident. She is not a transitory expat, a student, a guest worker in the actual sense of the word, etc etc.

She has paid into Japan's social system. In other words she has contributed and Japan has a contributory welfare and pension system which means that if you are to be covered by social services you must pay.

And that is why gaijin who are not going to become permanent residents under legal definitions or citizens of Japan but pay into the J pension whether it's kokumin nenkin or shakai hoken get their contributions back when they leave although kokumin nenkin is a rip-off the longer non PR/non J citizens stay in Japan before finally going home.

Japan also makes it very difficult for foreigners to obtain citizenship compared to most other 'First World' countries. It's fine for Japanese politicians and others to waah on about how special the Japanese are and why they are therefore privileged to do this or that or receive this or that but at the same time they insist that non Japanese pay their way and indeed have made a habit through ward offices for some time now of sending out letters to non Japanese telling them that everybody is required to pay into their social system.

You might say that is only about healthcare and pension but local taxes are still levied on top of national taxes and welfare is funded from the taxes of everybody, Japanese and gaijin alike.

I get Kurogane's point about entitlements under Japanese law but most western countries give payments in one way or another from the welfare system to non citizens who are not transitory residents - ie students, expats who are residing/working for a limited time, etc. Australia has a non contributory welfare system and does it, Canada I am sure also does it from what I know. Non citizens in the USA can receive certain benefits too and I am sure Europe has something similar in most of its western countries.

And given that Chinese woman's circumstances, it seems being callous is mistaken for national interest.

[omae mona]

Japan also makes it very difficult for foreigners to obtain citizenship compared to most other 'First World' countries.

Really? What's your source for this? Not having studied in detail, I don't know whether this is true or not. But it is the first time I've ever heard anybody make this claim.

I get Kurogane's point about entitlements under Japanese law but most western countries give payments in one way or another from the welfare system to non citizens who are not transitory residents - ie students, expats who are residing/working for a limited time, etc. Australia has a non contributory welfare system and does it, Canada I am sure also does it from what I know. Non citizens in the USA can receive certain benefits too and I am sure Europe has something similar in most of its western countries.

And non citizens in Japan receive certain benefits too, right? (national health insurance and unemployment benefits come to mind). By the way, when I've done a quick (but possibly inaccurate) check via Google, it looked like plenty of western countries refuse to make welfare payments to foreigners (I think I remember UK and Germany as examples).

So are we saying, with the new policy clarification, Japan is just like many western countries? I am not arguing Japan should not strive to be better than that... just trying to understand what is the norm.

[Russell]

And non citizens in Japan receive certain benefits too, right? (national health insurance and unemployment benefits come to mind). By the way, when I've done a quick (but possibly inaccurate) check via Google, it looked like plenty of western countries refuse to make welfare payments to foreigners (I think I remember UK and Germany as examples).

It is important to consider how long a foreigner has lived in an EU country to determine eligibility for welfare payments. It also depends on whether that foreigner is from an EU country. If one is from an EU country one tends to be better off to receive welfare in another EU country, even when one has made little contribution in taxes. However, this tends to vary from country to country.

For non-EU citizens living in an EU country permanently it is ridiculous to assume they cannot receive any benefits. Of course, this depends on the country, but the "richer" countries tend to provide these benefits. I know this for the Netherlands, because there have been scandals of benefit cheats by non-EU citizens reported in the press. Hell, some of them even could receive welfare benefits from the Netherlands while living in their own country. Yes, it is that different from Japan.

[dimwit]

The issue here (correct me if I am wrong) is that this woman is actually a permanent resident of Japan who happened to be born in China. And of course she is a foreigner living in Japan under the legal status of Permanent Resident. She is not a transitory expat, a student, a guest worker in the actual sense of the word, etc etc.

You are wrong. She was born in Japan and has lived here all her life. She is a special PR not a regular PR like most of the posters here. And to me, that is the crux of the matter. For regular PRs if you are forced to try to get by on welfare, one would think it might be time to consider moving back home. As an SPR she doesn't have that option. Why SPR aren't citizens either by mandate or volition, I don't know. I have never known any SPRs. I know at one time they were citizens, but they lost that status after WWII which would seem to be the case in this situation.

[Russell]

Just checked how the situation is in the Netherlands concerning welfare for foreigners.

You will have right to receive welfare if you are a Dutch citizen or considered "equal to a Dutch citizen in the legal sense". You will be in the latter category if

• You are an asylum seeker with a permit to stay in the Netherlands.
• You have a permit to stay in the Netherlands for a determined time. However, if your permit states that if you need welfare to stay in the Netherlands, your permit may be revoked. You will be allowed to receive welfare until the end of your permit.
• The case above, and you have applied for an extension of stay, your right will be extended for the time required to judge on the extension.
• You have a permanent permit to stay (Permanent Resident).
• You have appealed within 4 weeks to a decision not to be allowed to stay in the Netherlands any longer.

So, yes, Permanent Residents (including non-EU citizens) will be able to receive welfare in the Netherlands, unless there are exceptional circumstances.

I have a hunch that the regulations are similar in the core EU countries (i.e., the countries that have been long in the EU).

Now, what does Japan want? Being compared to a European country or not?

[Wage Slave]

I agree the UK is very similar - So much for "Japan is no worse". It is worse.

However, it is worth noting that the bill in question was not brought forward by the Government but by a small right wing party and there is no particular reason to believe it will become law.

Just to repeat. The current situation is that local authorities are under no obligation to provide welfare benefits to anyone who is not a citizen of Japan. We are talking about final resort safety net type benefits here not things like unemployment and health insurance. This situation was confirmed by the court. The politicians in question (including Ishihara) took this as some sort of moral judgement and decided that they would like to go a step further and outlaw such payments altogether because local authorities do make such payments, although they are not required to, on humanitarian grounds.

No doubt some will say that the solution is for people to become a citizen of Japan if they live here - It is not in truth that difficult. The difficulty is that should you do so, you are required to abandon any other citizenship you may hold. And that is not acceptable to many people for a variety of reasons.

[kurogane]

Well said, BC. Naturalisation is just not that difficult for SPRs, regardless of what office they need to go to. I would also imagine the need for a Rotary Public to get help with the application has as much to do with the relatively low levels of education amongst many SPRs, which is obviously something for which sympathy is called. At any rate, since they are all disenfranchised and there are so few of them they would be lucky to amount to a small bum pimple should they ever cause a ruckus. Naturalisation is the adult option, Yokohammer's evocative reasoning aside.

So, assuming the plaintiff actually is genuinely broke the court decision is contemptible and assuming she isn't she is. I find it hard to believe the court did not order a proper audit to determine her assets, but speculation interests me not.

As for Japan wanting to be compared to European countries, I would say a definite no on the social security and welfare front, especially as regards the progressive liberal social policies of countries like the Netherlands or the UK.

BTW, I was told the other day by a not very redneck redneck that SPRs don't pay taxes. If that be true, it puts an even more twisted twist on their eligibility. My take on it is that they might be exempt from one of the plethora of minor taxes levied rather than income tax or another bigger one.

Anybody ever heard that sort of thing?

[wangta]

Japan also makes it very difficult for foreigners to obtain citizenship compared to most other 'First World' countries.

Really? What's your source for this? Not having studied in detail, I don't know whether this is true or not. But it is the first time I've ever heard anybody make this claim.

I get Kurogane's point about entitlements under Japanese law but most western countries give payments in one way or another from the welfare system to non citizens who are not transitory residents - ie students, expats who are residing/working for a limited time, etc. Australia has a non contributory welfare system and does it, Canada I am sure also does it from what I know. Non citizens in the USA can receive certain benefits too and I am sure Europe has something similar in most of its western countries.

And non citizens in Japan receive certain benefits too, right? (national health insurance and unemployment benefits come to mind). By the way, when I've done a quick (but possibly inaccurate) check via Google, it looked like plenty of western countries refuse to make welfare payments to foreigners (I think I remember UK and Germany as examples).

So are we saying, with the new policy clarification, Japan is just like many western countries? I am not arguing Japan should not strive to be better than that... just trying to understand what is the norm.

Maybe Omae Mona doesn't get out much these days. Just about every western country especially the immigrant countries of New Zealand, Australia, Canada, and the US have easier policies on citizenship than Japan.

Dual citizenship allowed. Anything from 2 to 5 years residence necessary to qualify in Australia and other western countries. No evidence of being involved in community life or contributing to society needed.

No dumb as a bag of rocks checking of homes to ensure that the would be citizen has NZ or Australian or Canadian or US or English or whatever 'habits' including what food they eat at home. No spying on the would be citizen by asking locals where they live how 'Australian' or 'New Zealand' or 'Canadian' or 'American' the would be citizen is. Very easy or non existent language tests. Few if any income tests. Don't believe me? The big numbers of former asylum seekers on welfare who become citizens is one of the proofs that can be shown.

Japan imposes a raft of conditions on would be citizens including making them jump through hoops such as inspections of their homes to see if they live 'like a Japanese', stringent language and income tests. And let's not come the raw prawn about the 'benefits' foreigners receive. We pay for them because Japan has a contributory system, that's why. Given the NHI system takes 10 percent of our income in compulsory payments then so we should receive medical care. It's a service that we all pay for.

In Australia, Canada, and the UK to name only three countries you don't have to pay into the system to receive health benefits and the dole when you are unemployed. Regardless of how this kind of system can be criticised and found to be unfair to those who work and end up at times with less than if they had received welfare (Australia has some stunningly bad examples of this when you can get about 23,000 bucks a year in payments, benefits and subsidies without working while somebody who works can earn less than this after tax and still have to pay full price for things).

Even in the US where people often can't afford healthcare, there are still people who get treated for free. Medical care in Japan is not a benefit - it's something you pay and in some cases overpay for. And I am no expert on unemployment benefits in Japan but I know that eligibility tests are applied and they can be very strict more so for foreigners.

[Yokohammer]

Well said, BC. Naturalisation is just not that difficult for SPRs, regardless of what office they need to go to. I would also imagine the need for a Rotary Public to get help with the application has as much to do with the relatively low levels of education amongst many SPRs, which is obviously something for which sympathy is called. At any rate, since they are all disenfranchised and there are so few of them they would be lucky to amount to a small bum pimple should they ever cause a ruckus. Naturalisation is the adult option, Yokohammer's evocative reasoning aside.

Since you obviously couldn't be arsed, here are some more or less realistic numbers for you:

At the end of 2013 the number of Special Permanent Residents in Japan was 373,221 according to one source, and around 381,650 according to another. So something around 380,000 it is.

But that number is not the issue when it comes to "causing a ruckus," and I'm a little dismayed that you either can't see it or simply refuse to look. It's not a matter of those 380,000 people running wild in the streets, grannies and geezers and babes in arms included, it's a matter of how the situation is seen by the rest of the population, their countries of ancestry, and the world at large. It is one of Japan's numerous human rights issues, and how it is handled can affect how Japan is handled by the international community.

You also seem to be suggesting that I stated somewhere that naturalization is not a viable option for those people. I don't believe I said that anywhere ... If I did please point me to it. I would say that decision is entirely up to them though, and that given their situation they shouldn't be forced to naturalize to be eligible for the basic rights we're talking about. As you mentioned yourself, this is a group of people to whom Japanese nationality was granted and then taken away. They have been jerked around and marginalized quite enough as it is.

And they pay taxes like everyone else.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[omae mona]

Maybe Omae Mona doesn't get out much these days.

Well, you hit the nail on the head there. Which is why I left my comments as an open ended question. But I will say that anecdotally I've heard the opposite, which is why I was surprised by your claim that Japan's naturalisation was more difficult.

Perhaps we're dealing with two different definitions of "difficult". There's "hard to meet the qualifications" versus "painful bureaucratic paperwork". EDIT: and maybe one more: "undesirable / emotionally painful because of need to give up 2nd citizenship"

I've met at least two people in Japan who went straight from short term visas (e.g. spouse) to citizenship, if I recall, and I believe their stated reason was that naturalisation was super easy compared to obtaining PR. By "easier", I am not sure they meant the paperwork was less of a pain. I think they meant they were probably not qualified for PR, but did qualify for citizenship.

Japan imposes a raft of conditions on would be citizens including making them jump through hoops such as inspections of their homes to see if they live 'like a Japanese', stringent language and income tests.

Definitely hoops. But have you heard of anybody being turned down? I have also not heard language and income tests are stringent - I thought I had heard the opposite, in fact (but my memory is fading...)

What I have seen in the U.S. (from a bit of stories from acquaintances, a bit of personal experience, and some google searching) is that since PR, a.k.a. a green card, is a prerequisite unlike Japan, the process can take many years after applying, And possibly tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees and application fees. And preparation classes to pass the exams. I guess if you don't count the phase of actually obtaining PR, which is apparently the worst part, then it doesn't sound awful. But the entire process from new immigrant to full citizen: pretty awful, from what I understand, and sounds nastier than Japan by a longshot. Again this is all anecdotal so I defer to people who've actually been through it.

[omae mona]

You are wrong. She was born in Japan and has lived here all her life. She is a special PR not a regular PR like most of the posters here.

Fact check. Are you sure about that? Maybe my google-fu is failing me, but I've only heard her referred to as permanent resident or 永住者 in the Japanese press. I have not seen "special permanent resident" or 特別永住者 used in respect to this case.

In fact I was also under the impression that the only Chinese with SPR were an extremely small number of Taiwanese, if that counts as Chinese (and nothing mentioned she was Taiwanese). I am not terribly confident about this though.

[Yokohammer]

In fact I was also under the impression that the only Chinese with SPR were an extremely small number of Taiwanese, if that counts as Chinese (and nothing mentioned she was Taiwanese). I am not terribly confident about this though.

That is probably correct, at least in that it is a very small number. Apparently 99% of the approx. 380,000 special permanent residents hold Korean and North Korean nationality.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[kurogane]

At the end of 2013 the number of Special Permanent Residents in Japan was 373,221 according to one source, and around 381,650 according to another. So something around 380,000 it is.

So, barely a drop in the bucket of the number of people that do vote, and they refuse to be able to.

But that number is not the issue when it comes to "causing a ruckus," and I'm a little dismayed that you either can't see it or simply refuse to look. It's not a matter of those 380,000 people running wild in the streets, grannies and geezers and babes in arms included, it's a matter of how the situation is seen by the rest of the population, their countries of ancestry, and the world at large. It is one of Japan's numerous human rights issues, and how it is handled can affect how Japan is handled by the international community.

Don't be dismayed, for I agree with you in spirit. I don't like meanies or bullies anymore than you. But this isn't a civics essay contest. Japan is immune to human rights issues complaints, both from within and without. Look at how long they dragged their feet on the Hague thingy, and how little real crap they took for it. Only Internet cat ladies give a flying feck about what the Japanese do within and beyond their shores, and most of that relates to dolphin rights, not people rights. They are the largest country at the UN that actually pays their bills, and they have Culchur!! as a default wildcard whenever they need to pull it. The sad truth is they can go on treating their second class non-citizens as just that for as long as they want. The Koreans don't seem to care much and nobody worth listening to could possibly give a flying feck what the North Koreans or Chinese have to say.

You also seem to be suggesting that I stated somewhere that naturalization is not a viable option for those people. I don't believe I said that anywhere ... If I did please point me to it. I would say that decision is entirely up to them though, and that given their situation they shouldn't be forced to naturalize to be eligible for the basic rights we're talking about. As you mentioned yourself, this is a group of people to whom Japanese nationality was granted and then taken away. They have been jerked around and marginalized quite enough as it is.

And they pay taxes like everyone else.

Yeah, I doubt any such comment was directed at you; there seems to be a lot of general confusion over the SPR vs. the PR status, so maybe it was that? As for their decision, sure, but that doesn't change my diagnosis of Self-destructive Fuckheaditis, with sympathy for the historical crap included. While I fully agree any SPR should receive all basic rights this side of the vote it doesn't change the fact that the laws have gotten better and all they need to do is file a few forms to avoid this nightmare. They are self-ghettofying, and that is simply stupid. If they want to not get jerked around and marginalised they should do what they can so it doesn't happen.

As for the taxes thingy, I think that guy meant the tax free status of the old NK association. I figured it was a bit of Chinese telephone game. He seemed to agree when I noted that history had taxed them enough, but who knows how sincere that was.

[havill]

Maybe Omae Mona doesn't get out much these days. Just about every western country especially the immigrant countries of New Zealand, Australia, Canada, and the US have easier policies on citizenship than Japan.

Dual citizenship allowed. Anything from 2 to 5 years residence necessary to qualify in Australia and other western countries. No evidence of being involved in community life or contributing to society needed.

No dumb as a bag of rocks checking of homes to ensure that the would be citizen has NZ or Australian or Canadian or US or English or whatever 'habits' including what food they eat at home. No spying on the would be citizen by asking locals where they live how 'Australian' or 'New Zealand' or 'Canadian' or 'American' the would be citizen is. Very easy or non existent language tests. Few if any income tests. Don't believe me? The big numbers of former asylum seekers on welfare who become citizens is one of the proofs that can be shown.

Japan imposes a raft of conditions on would be citizens including making them jump through hoops such as inspections of their homes to see if they live 'like a Japanese', stringent language and income tests.

Wow. What a load of bullshit.

(Sorry for the short post. It's a school night, and there's so much here that's provably false... And I'm too sleepy to type paragraphs right now. I'll get to this this week)

[dimwit]

You are wrong. She was born in Japan and has lived here all her life. She is a special PR not a regular PR like most of the posters here.

Fact check. Are you sure about that? Maybe my google-fu is failing me, but I've only heard her referred to as permanent resident or 永住者 in the Japanese press. I have not seen "special permanent resident" or 特別永住者 used in respect to this case.

In fact I was also under the impression that the only Chinese with SPR were an extremely small number of Taiwanese, if that counts as Chinese (and nothing mentioned she was Taiwanese). I am not terribly confident about this though.

I am assuming she is, as according to every source I have seen, she has lived here all her life. None of the sources specifically say she is a SPR but I really can't see how she would not be. But than again I am not entirely sure about how SPR works (do you need to have been a citizen to be a SPR?)

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/0 ... -benefits/

The decision by the top court’s Second Petit Bench concerned a lawsuit filed by an 82-year-old Chinese woman with permanent residency who was born and grew up in Japan

[havill]

You are wrong. She was born in Japan and has lived here all her life. She is a special PR not a regular PR like most of the posters here.

Fact check. Are you sure about that? Maybe my google-fu is failing me, but I've only heard her referred to as permanent resident or 永住者 in the Japanese press. I have not seen "special permanent resident" or 特別永住者 used in respect to this case.

In fact I was also under the impression that the only Chinese with SPR were an extremely small number of Taiwanese, if that counts as Chinese (and nothing mentioned she was Taiwanese). I am not terribly confident about this though.

I am assuming she is, as according to every source I have seen, she has lived here all her life. None of the sources specifically say she is a SPR but I really can't see how she would not be. But than again I am not entirely sure about how SPR works (do you need to have been a citizen to be a SPR?)

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/0 ... -benefits/

The decision by the top court’s Second Petit Bench concerned a lawsuit filed by an 82-year-old Chinese woman with permanent residency who was born and grew up in Japan

Just because you've lived here your whole life and you're an octogenarian and you were born here doesn't guarantee that you're SPR. Being PR is very possible and plausible.

[omae mona]

Wow. What a load of bullshit.

(Sorry for the short post. It's a school night, and there's so much here that's provably false... And I'm too sleepy to type paragraphs right now. I'll get to this this week)

C'mon havill. If you're gonna make outrageous claims, man up and show us some facts. Maybe make a web site or something.

[wangta]

Maybe Omae Mona doesn't get out much these days.

Well, you hit the nail on the head there. Which is why I left my comments as an open ended question. But I will say that anecdotally I've heard the opposite, which is why I was surprised by your claim that Japan's naturalisation was more difficult.

Perhaps we're dealing with two different definitions of "difficult". There's "hard to meet the qualifications" versus "painful bureaucratic paperwork". EDIT: and maybe one more: "undesirable / emotionally painful because of need to give up 2nd citizenship"

I've met at least two people in Japan who went straight from short term visas (e.g. spouse) to citizenship, if I recall, and I believe their stated reason was that naturalisation was super easy compared to obtaining PR. By "easier", I am not sure they meant the paperwork was less of a pain. I think they meant they were probably not qualified for PR, but did qualify for citizenship.

Japan imposes a raft of conditions on would be citizens including making them jump through hoops such as inspections of their homes to see if they live 'like a Japanese', stringent language and income tests.

Definitely hoops. But have you heard of anybody being turned down? I have also not heard language and income tests are stringent - I thought I had heard the opposite, in fact (but my memory is fading...)

What I have seen in the U.S. (from a bit of stories from acquaintances, a bit of personal experience, and some google searching) is that since PR, a.k.a. a green card, is a prerequisite unlike Japan, the process can take many years after applying, And possibly tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees and application fees. And preparation classes to pass the exams. I guess if you don't count the phase of actually obtaining PR, which is apparently the worst part, then it doesn't sound awful. But the entire process from new immigrant to full citizen: pretty awful, from what I understand, and sounds nastier than Japan by a longshot. Again this is all anecdotal so I defer to people who've actually been through it.

Thanks for that reasonable reply. I looked at my post again now and it seemed a bit snappy but it wasn't meant to be.

All I can say is that as a vet of living and working in both Japan and Korea for a long time I would have liked to get PR.

In Korea it would have made staying there much simpler instead of always having to go in and out of the country after contracts finished. It would have meant I didn't have to go through Korean recruiters who block access to job information and interviews as the English industry in Korea is set up like that. Outside you're at the mercy of a lot of bullshit, a PR visa would let you stay and have the time to see employers directly.

A PR visa far outranks the E-2 which is for foreigners to come in and then leave after their English teaching contract is finished. It provides access to far better jobs which would suit people like myself who are not graduates who couldn't find work and were urged by their mates on facebook to come on over to Korea.

If for example I could have obtained PR in Korea along the lines of what non Australian citizens can obtain in Oz, then I would have literally saved around 15,000 dollars or more in getting fresh OZ Criminal checks and fresh notarisations of my university degrees plus airfares in and out after you finish your contract plus all the goods that you have to throw out when upping again. There is a 6 month limit on new CRCs and degree notarisations although Korean immigration has clear evidence the first time you are issued a working visa that your degrees are genuine as you have to go through a validation of them that has your university really pissed off at the petty details.

The system is set up to shunt western waygooks in and out and I accept theose are the rules. But in Oz PR has been obtained rather simply by comparison when it comes to Korean and other nationalities' 'hairdressers', 'bakers' etc. I would also have rather obtained PR in Japan for the same broad reasons. The length of continual residence requirement in Japan for PR is longer than the residency requirement for citizenship in Australia, NZ, Canada and the UK to name only four countries. That's just one stumbling block. There are others.

As for Havill calling bullshit, yes I know you are a gaijin who became a Japanese citizen. And I stand by what I said - there are significant hoops to jump through that make it difficult to obtain especially in the context of PR being difficult to obtain. You are also forgetting a significant fact - Japan makes it difficult for people who are not married to Japanese citizens or married per se. Japan is a society based on the importance of legal marriage - not defacto relationships, not single people. The whole system is geared towards the traditional family unit which is the same in East Asi and Asia generally.

I was always interested to note how in every neighbourhood I lived in, the block fee system was set up completely to benefit families. It never occurred to my neighbours that I might like to get something back from my monthly fees. I was not married and I was not married to a Japanese.

That is not in any way criticising the family unit or being married to a Japanese and thus getting an easier ride. But the J system and society and K system and society favour people like Havill over those with no Japanese or Korean familial networks and contacts. In western societies an unmarried person who has a strong work history and demonstrable skills will be treated favourably by the PR/Citizenship system

[havill]

As for Havill calling bullshit, yes I know you are a gaijin who became a Japanese citizen. And I stand by what I said - there are significant hoops to jump through that make it difficult to obtain especially in the context of PR being difficult to obtain.

Yes, there are "hoops", but a few of your hoops are based on urban legends (that are false) spread by sites I shall not mention that numerous people (not just me) who have naturalized and willing to provide names and details and facts, as well as naturalization case officers who agreed to go on record, know from direct experience to be not true.

You are also forgetting a significant fact - Japan makes it difficult for people who are not married to Japanese citizens or married per se. Japan is a society based on the importance of legal marriage - not defacto relationships, not single people. The whole system is geared towards the traditional family unit which is the same in East Asi and Asia generally.

You're right with that one ONE respect: permanent residency. Naturalization is actually easier* than PR if you're single (although you do get a break regarding the required amount of years of residence required to qualify -- from five years down to three or one) if you're either married to a Japanese national (for a non-trivial amount of years; newlyweds don't count) or have Japanese national immediate family connections.

I personally know of a couple single** and/or gay people that didn't qualify for permanent residency (not enough logged years) in Japan but DID qualify for naturalization.

* Unlike many countries, PR is not a prerequisite for naturalization in Japan, which makes the whole process potentially much shorter and simpler than even many European countries that are considered to be "pro-immigrant" such as Sweden.
** [edit: and he was Muslim too!]

More info on that here:

http://www.turning-japanese.info/2010/0 ... anent.html

In western societies an unmarried person who has a strong work history and demonstrable skills will be treated favourably by the PR/Citizenship system.

That's sort of untrue; while not PR, people that are connected to families (already in the "western society") -- either "immigrant" or "native" -- settled in the U.S. have a way easier time getting getting a legal visa. The vast amount of immigration that occurs to the U.S.A. occurs due to "family sponsorship", not "work visas"... which is the prerequisite to getting PR and then citizenship.

http://www.turning-japanese.info/2014/0 ... ation.html

The only other country where people "naturalize" in vast numbers is Russia, by the way. And they aren't naturalizing because of their "strong work history"; they're naturalizing because they get preference because they're a citizen from a former Soviet-Warsaw-block country.

http://www.turning-japanese.info/2012/0 ... rates.html

As you notice, Japan does about as well as the rest of the world (10s of thousands per year; nobody outside the top 7 breaks five digits) with respect to citizenship and naturalization, if you exclude the top eight "naturalizing countries": U.S., Russia, Canada, Britain, France, Germany, Australia, and Spain.

Time for lunch. I'll deal with your other claims (which are not your fault; you learned them from the Internets) later today.

[havill]

No dumb as a bag of rocks checking of homes to ensure that the would be citizen has NZ or Australian or Canadian or US or English or whatever 'habits' including what food they eat at home. No spying on the would be citizen by asking locals where they live how 'Australian' or 'New Zealand' or 'Canadian' or 'American' the would be citizen is. ... Japan imposes a raft of conditions on would be citizens including making them jump through hoops such as inspections of their homes to see if they live 'like a Japanese'

I'll deal with this one first during lunch.

The origin of this urban myth, or patient zero, from what I can tell, on the English Internets is a person who was posting on the now defunct by decades mailing list, Dead Fukuzawa Society:

==
In the origin claim, the poster claimed to have heard from somebody who knew "a Korean" (no names, specifics, dates, or any other type of tangible information to verify the story) that tried to naturalize and during the home inspection, the inspector opened the refrigerator to see if they ate kimchi or not.

Since the 90s, the story has been bandied about, with details changed and/or embellished (ex. Korean to Chinese, kimchi to spring rolls or kids watching Chinese/Korean/non-Japanese language television, etc) to fit the spreader's narrative. It's often accompanied by another (also false) anecdote about being forced to change their name to a Japanese sounding one.

The punchline to the story is usually something like "...and this is why there are so many Koreans who can't naturalize; [because the naturalization process is racist/impossible/etc.]"
==

However, I have documented* several cases who wrote up their accounts of the home inspection (if they had one at all; I didn't, and most people I know that live in Tokyo or other big urban cities did not either)... none of them could collaborate the original urban legend's experience.

See the accounts written here:

http://www.turning-japanese.info/2012/0 ... -like.html

and here:

http://www.turning-japanese.info/2012/0 ... times.html
(this guy started off as a anonymous contributor, but now uses his real name and is a full time contributor to the site)

Additionally, I received 7 comments from people I know by their real name who have naturalized that reported no home/work inspection or a perfunctory visit that did not include any checks for "cultural/ethnic assimilation".

But hey, these are just anecdotes, right? So I actually went to the Bureau of Legal Affairs in Tokyo and got a real practicing Naturalization case worker to go on record (with his real name: Kobayashi {Case Worker 1279}) regarding the visits with an official explanation. Here's what he said:

The primary purpose of the home and work inspections is to make sure the residence and workplace one puts on paper is real and not bogus. For example, if you put an address on the paper and claimed to have lived there for a decade, yet when the inspector arrives it looks like hardly anybody has lived there in years, that will raise a yellow flag and invite further inspection. If they interview the neighbors and the neighbors look at the picture of you and say they've never seen you before, that will also raise a yellow flag. If they go to the address for your work place and it looks like a home (or vice versa) or the staff there has never seen or heard of you, that may also raise a yellow flag.

Another reason for the home and work inspection, in addition to verifying a bone fide residence and workplace, is to make sure the statements regarding assets and income are not out of place with the what is written on paper. For example, if they visit your home and it turns out there are many people living there and everybody is sharing the rent, they may check your living expenses statement and see if your statements about paying rent/mortgage and your income correspond to what they confirmed from being onsite.

Source: http://www.turning-japanese.info/2013/0 ... -your.html

* People that use their real names and real verifiable details

==
That's all for lunch. I'll deal with your claims about language and income tests later this evening.

[GomiGirl]

The more Japan reminds me that I'm not part of their society, the more anti-social acts I commit. For example, I started littering recently. Only in the cities, which I already consider dumps.

That's kind of a different issue....the lack of trashcans in public here and the demand that you "bring your trash and dirty diapers home with you" is just shitty for everyone.

Speaking of shitty, I think my next act will be to take a dump in a park. Or maybe on one of those gateball fields the old farts use.

Passive Aggressive much?

I bet you are the type that smashes in mailboxes in the middle of the night or key the cars of people who have "wronged" you. That is just cowardly and misplaced self-loathing.

Just my two yen.. my 3 year old son was born in Japan and has PR - not SPR.