Home solar panel system....worth it?

[chibaka]

I'm considering installing solar panels in an effort to avoid giving money to Tepco...
Any FG here have experience with solar systems? I found this site http://standard-project.net/solar/hikaku_brands.html with seems to provide cost efficiency info, but first hand experience is always best.
What's the deal, worth it? Wait for efficiency to improve? Short payback, long warranty are top of the requirements of course.

Any insight welcome.

[Wage Slave]

Quite a lot of discussion in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=30194&start=60

[Russell]

And don't forget these threads:

When solar panels are not hot

Spare 13 trillion yen for a cup of sake, guv?

[chibaka]

Thanks..I did search, honest

Judge Tetsuji Sato said in the ruling Thursday that two neighbors suffered psychological distress from having their daily lives disturbed by the reflections. For example, the neighbors had to wear sunglasses when they hung out laundry on their balcony.

What.the.fuck

[Wage Slave]

In that case all I would add is that when evaluating investment opportunities it is probably best to discount personal feelings. So although you may dislike TEPCO and welcome the thought of paying them less that shouldn't have a lot of influence on your final decision.

[Russell]

In that case all I would add is that when evaluating investment opportunities it is probably best to discount personal feelings. So although you may dislike TEPCO and welcome the thought of paying them less that shouldn't have a lot of influence on your final decision.

Good point!

[chibaka]

In that case all I would add is that when evaluating investment opportunities it is probably best to discount personal feelings. So although you may dislike TEPCO and welcome the thought of paying them less that shouldn't have a lot of influence on your final decision.

Actually I don't dislike Tepco, I do dislike not having the choice of provider in order to get the best price by competition, you know, the weird thing called free market.
Unless there is an alternative I'm not aware of. The UK has a choice of providers, they are however all thieves
It's part of my efficiency drive, winter heating I changed to wood burning stove, plentiful supply of wood here. Installed double glazed windows as the standard J windows are crap. Already reduced electricity consumption by maybe 15~20% and oil usage for my small heater is greatly reduced.

Solar "seems" to be a logical step, if of course the numbers are right.

[jingai]

Let me know if you want to do an analysis of this (or have one to review.) I'm interested in the state of the solar market here and real-world info on costs and paybacks. I am quite familiar with this in the northeastern US and would like to do a comparison and write about it. I'm working on an article about heating options at the moment though trying to do apples to apples comparisons of aircons is challenging (weird J-only APF ratings, etc.)

[matsuki]

Heating options? Masonry stove FTW!! (if you have a strong enough foundation to support it....even a wood stove seems like a decent way to keep things warm and can work in conjunction with an elec heater)

[chibaka]

....even a wood stove seems like a decent way to keep things warm

Crunching the numbers, the wood stove investment will take quite a while to pay off if only using electricity saving to calculate. BUT, the house is completely different in winter. Well worth it for the kimochi ii factor alone
With Japanese houses being made of paper and sticks safety is an issue, and the correct chimney is f@@king expensive, and guess how many manufacturers there are? Only 1 it seems...
Sadly the stove is just an ornament from April to December.

[matsuki]

yeah, crazy overpriced here too...import time!

[Mike Oxlong]

Solar’s $30 Billion Splurge Proves Too Much for Japan

After spending almost $30 billion on solar energy in a single year and installing as many panels as exist in the whole of Spain, Japan is preparing to ratchet back its boom in photovoltaic power.

At least five of the nation’s utilities are restricting the access of new solar farms to their grids. Utilities say two years of rapid expansion has strained their capacity to absorb all the new electricity from sources that generate only when the sun shines.

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe’s government offered some of the highest incentives for solar in the world to build PV as an alternative to the nuclear reactors shut down after the meltdowns in Fukushima more than three years ago. That made Japan the second-biggest solar market, balancing a slowdown in sales in Germany and Spain, which once led the industry.

“Everyone was entering the solar market because it was lucrative, and that has strained the market,” said Yutaka Miki, who studies clean energy at the Japan Research Institute.

Japan’s trade ministry has approved plans for about 72 gigawatts of renewable energy projects since July 2012. The country installed almost 7.1 gigawatts of solar capacity last year, more than currently exists in all of Spain, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance. A gigawatt is about the size of a nuclear reactor.

Japan’s investment in the technology more than tripled to $29.6 billion in 2013 from 2010 levels, data from London-based BNEF show...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-10-0 ... ccess.html

[Russell]

Japan urged to introduce competition in purchase of renewable energy, with eye on low-cost solar

A member of an advisory panel to the industry ministry urged the government on Tuesday to introduce market competition in its feed-in tariff scheme to promote renewable energy by giving preferential treatment to solar power suppliers offering the energy at low cost.

Kenji Yamaji, who heads a subcommittee on new energy under the ministry’s Advisory Committee for Natural Resources and Energy, made the recommendation in an interview with Kyodo News as his subcommittee on Wednesday begins full-fledged discussions on revising the feed-in tariff scheme.

Yamaji recommends giving priority to purchasing renewable energy from suppliers offering the best price to lessen the burden to be passed on to consumers.

Under the current system, power utilities are obliged to purchase electricity generated from renewable sources at fixed prices. The costs are passed on to consumers in their electricity bills, raising concerns that consumers will have to shoulder more of this burden as the supply of solar power increases.

“The solar power operators have low investment risks and the principle of market competition is not functioning” under the current scheme that guarantees profits for solar power suppliers, said Yamaji, a University of Tokyo professor emeritus engaged in energy systems engineering.

The use of renewable energy is regarded as vital in Japan’s efforts to reduce reliance on nuclear power generation inn light of the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant disaster triggered by the March 2011 earthquake and tsunami.

Stressing the urgency of reviewing the scheme aimed at spurring the use of clean energy, Yamaji said, “We will not be able to regulate the electricity generated and costs (for consumers) if the current scheme continues.”

Last month, Kyushu Electric Power Co. and four other utilities decided to stop signing contracts to buy renewable energy from solar power suppliers in their service regions, citing transmission network capacity limitations amid increases in solar power supply.

Yamaji said the government should consider temporarily halting accreditation of new renewable power sources under the current system, as expansion of transmission capacity will take time.

More

That looks like a case of careful planning...

[Wage Slave]

Indeed. Very poor planning to put into place a price that was clearly unsustainable - even before the nuclear shutdown. With the shutdown it looks simply hideous. Forcing companies that already have massively increased costs to buy electricity they often neither want or can transport. And even better, force them to pay more for it than they can sell it for.

It looks more and more like a lot of people are simply not going to get the money they were told they were going to get when they bought their panels. Cue a possible mis selling scandal and loud screams of protest from people who have forked out a bunch of money to have panels fitted on their roof.

At least though, domestic producers will get the benefit of using the electricity they produce, so their investment will eventually pay off. How much longer it will take I have no idea. 20% longer? 50%?

[Coligny]

Cross posting wurnang:

to put it simply. they sux and have a whole countrywide system to make anything suck even more in order to protect their view of themselves as rainbow shitting do gooders who's farts do not stink... their crisis management sux, their judicial system sux, their nukaplants sux, their driving sux, their flying skills sux, their army sux. And everytime their system is stress tested it collapse upon itself and there is enough shit dropped on so many fans that the planet could look like a chocolate ball. and when they miraculously make it through thanks to some divine intervention or out of pity from some summerian demon. Like the good fucking imbeciles they are, they learn no lessons and just consider that everything should have worked, it was just a case of bad luck, can't happen again, they have stats to prove it...

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/gre ... juggernaut

Clashing energy interests on the Japanese island of Kyushu have prompted Japan's government to clamp down on solar power development nationwide. While the government calls it a necessary revision to assure grid stability amidst rapidly rising levels of intermittent solar energy, critics see a pro-nuclear agenda at work—one that could stunt Japan's renewable energy potential.

I'm waiting for the pronuke to rationalize how renewable from solar and wind switched from "never being enough to supply the demand" to "being to much overproduction for the grid to handle" since Fukushima.
Because, last time I checked, when a solar panel make power that is not needed, you unplug or just ignore it. Or if you are smart you power water pump to refill water reservoirs that can be later used to make power when needed...

[Salty]

I looked at installing solar and decided against it for two reasons… First, was age – I probably will not have another 20 years in my home to recoup the investment with the difference in electricity rates, even when factoring in sales of excess power. Second, was component cost/efficiency – the package deals the installers were proposing used old/inefficient technology at the equivalent cost of the newer technology. In other words, they were peddling old inventory.

If you are serious, I`d suggest that you go to one of the manufacturer showrooms, such as Panasonic – and listen to their new product lecture/explanation. They will of course highlight their latest and most efficient technology. Armed with this information, then seek an installation quotation.

I am still interested, and looking forward to the day when Japan`s costs come closer to those in the rest of the world.

[Russell]

I looked at installing solar and decided against it for two reasons… First, was age – I probably will not have another 20 years in my home to recoup the investment with the difference in electricity rates, even when factoring in sales of excess power. Second, was component cost/efficiency – the package deals the installers were proposing used old/inefficient technology at the equivalent cost of the newer technology. In other words, they were peddling old inventory.

If you are serious, I`d suggest that you go to one of the manufacturer showrooms, such as Panasonic – and listen to their new product lecture/explanation. They will of course highlight their latest and most efficient technology. Armed with this information, then seek an installation quotation.

I am still interested, and looking forward to the day when Japan`s costs come closer to those in the rest of the world.

Yep, costs in Japan are much higher than elsewhere.

But this seems to attract foreign competitors to this market, I have heard. That is, I heard that 2 years ago, and I would expect costs to have gone down in the mean time. Apparently, that hasn't happened.

I think one of the main reasons was the subsidies provided from the government. If everyone rushes for the last chance to get subsidy, cost becomes the smallest of considerations.

Anyway, I have decided against solar panels on my roof, for the time being. It is too nice looking to be spoiled by those things on top. And electricity rates may go down in the coming years with those low oil prices. Maybe.

[Salty]

... And electricity rates may go down in the coming years with those low oil prices. Maybe.

I don`t look for them to go anywhere but up - unless they restart the reactors, and even then not down - but maybe not up so fast.

There are foreign solar players that have come in to do massive projects - but their solar is costing us all 38 yen, and will do so for the next 20 years.

[Takechanpoo]

to make matters worse, damn Tepco lowered the purchase price of surplus power from solor panels of individual houses.

[Russell]

Actually, I was talking about foreign companies selling solar panels. It seems that their numbers increased in the light of the prices on the Japanese market.

[Salty]

to make matters worse, damn Tepco lowered the purchase price of surplus power from solor panels of individual houses.

Not TEPCO - but rather the government program that supports solar power development. The price goes down for new installations each year - but each installation still has their contracted rate locked-in for the life of their contracts. I believe all of the contracts are for 20 years.

[Wage Slave]

to make matters worse, damn Tepco lowered the purchase price of surplus power from solor panels of individual houses.

Not TEPCO - but rather the government program that supports solar power development. The price goes down for new installations each year - but each installation still has their contracted rate locked-in for the life of their contracts. I believe all of the contracts are for 20 years.

Hmmm, well TEPCO would of course cut the price far further if they had half the chance and refuse to buy quite a lot of it at any price. In November 2009 the government the government legislated for a feed in tariff for solar power. They don't pay for it but they required the Electric companies to buy electricity generated from solar at twice their selling price. This government set price was then reduced:

in 2012 to 42 Yen
in 2013 to 37.8 Yen
in 2014 to 32 Yen

They also legislated that for small units less than 10kW the tariff lasts for 10 years and for over 10kW, 20 years. There is no contract involved - it's an undertaking backed by law that can be amended or repealed at any time. To demonstrate that, the article that Coligny linked to claims that the power company in Kyushu has been given the power to refuse to buy solar power at all from some producers for a certain number of days/hours a year. They have also been allowed to refuse to buy new capacity over a certain limit - even though that capacity had already been approved by METI.

The Japanese government is seeking to expand solar power by enacting subsidies and a feed-in tariff (FIT). In December 2008, the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry announced a goal of 70% of new homes having solar power installed, and would be spending $145 million in the first quarter of 2009 to encourage home solar power.[6] The government enacted a feed-in tariff on November, 2009 that requires utilities to purchase excess solar power sent to the grid by homes and businesses and pay twice the standard electricity rate for that power.[7]

On June 18, 2012, a new feed-in tariff was approved, of 42 Yen/kWh, about 0.406 Euro/kWh or USD 0.534/kWh. The tariff covers the first ten years of excess generation for systems less than 10 kW, and generation for twenty years for systems over 10 kW. It became effective July 1, 2012.[8] In 2013, Japan is expected to install 5-9 GW of solar power (nameplate wattage).[9][10] In April 2013, the FIT was reduced to 37.8 Yen/kWh.[11] The FIT was further reduced to 32 Yen/kWh in April 2014.[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_Japan

And quite a neat little summary here

http://www.economist.com/news/business/21635013-japan-has-failed-learn-germanys-renewable-energy-mess-solar-shambles

It seems that Kyushu is not the only place that the power companies have the ability to refuse to buy capacity. TEPCO appear to be able to do it too.

EIGHTY miles north-west of Fukushima’s hulking nuclear corpse, Yauemon Sato, a small businessman, has charged into the solar-power business. Mr Sato has rented land, hired a workforce and lined up ¥80m ($6.8m) in capital from local investors and banks. His company says it can produce electricity for about 700 households. But the local power utility is refusing to buy more than a quarter of it.

All in all, as an investment goes - thanks but no thanks. Too illiquid and too many rules that can and perhaps should be changed at any time.

[Coligny]

If you think solar just as a way to make few bucks... you might be missing a part of the picture...

prepper-mindset-header.jpeg

Remind me ten years ago when I was paying a fortune on CFL lightbulbs and every smartass around was lecturing me that I was wrong and the investment will never pay for itself anyway.
Sure... as far as billing goes I will never be in the black
But my goal was despite (renting back then) having a ridiculously small amperage feed at the panel box. being able to leave as much lights on as I wanted without tripping a fuse...Which was my goal...

[Wage Slave]

Yep. That's a good point. If you are buying solar power in order to make your contribution to reducing emissions, then yes, that makes perfect sense.

As for CFL light bulbs, I started buying them in about 1995 I think. I would guess I must have done OK financially out of them though I can't say I kept any record. Now the price of LED lights has fallen far enough I am pushing ahead to converting to them as good buying opportunities present. (BTW, Groupon have some good Panasonics at the moment). All the heavily used lights are now LED. Natch, lights that aren't needed are turned off whether they are LED or not.

I am keen on any way to reduce consumption - As far as production goes I'm not keen to sink that much capital in one go, I'm not keen on the fact it is so illiquid, I'm wary of political promises and I'm not convinced that, with the current setup, much of what I might produce has any real utility.

[Coligny]

Just in case... It was a picture of preppers, not tree hugging faggots...

image.jpg

image.jpg

image.jpg

[Salty]

...All in all, as an investment goes - thanks but no thanks. Too illiquid and too many rules that can and perhaps should be changed at any time.

Thanks for the clarifications - great post.

[Takechanpoo]

Sakhalin-I to begin production
http://rt.com/news/224371-oil-rig-berkut-extraction/
time to love each other, japan and russia

[Coligny]

Oil price are going down the shitter...

Meanwhile...

The drilling platform can withstand a 9 magnitude earthquake

Dear journalists... Floaty stuff don't do earthquakes...
(Unless it's one of those floor resting coastal plateforms)

[Yokohammer]

Oil price are going down the shitter...

Meanwhile...

The drilling platform can withstand a 9 magnitude earthquake

Dear journalists... Floaty stuff don't do earthquakes...
(Unless it's one of those floor resting coastal plateforms)

Um ... how can you drill from a floaty thing?

I was under the impressing that offshore oil rigs were anchored to the sea floor.
That'd make earthquake resistance pretty important.
Perhaps our resident expert (Wage Slave) can clarify?

[Coligny]

check the wiki...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_platform

Types_of_offshore_oil_and_gas_structures.jpg

type 4 to 8 are floaty.

anchored to the sea floor do not mean resting on the sea floor.