You Be The Judge

[Mulboyne]

Guardian: Japan Shows Off Courtroom for Jury Trials
They tried on the black robes, sat in the high-backed chairs, and asked about everything from what to wear to how long they'd be away from work. It was just the basics for Japan's opening day of Jury Duty 101. Organized by the Justice Ministry, Wednesday's seminar at a Tokyo courthouse offered the public its first chance to find out about jury trials, being introduced as part of the country's most drastic judicial reforms since World War II. At present, Japan's courts don't use juries and rely instead on a panel of three judges to preside over trials. The new system, expected to start by 2009, would let Japanese be jurors, giving them the right to determine guilt or innocence in serious criminal cases...more...

[Big Booger]

All it takes is an alpha male or female to get on the jury, and then all the other little puppets will march in step....

I dunno if this is a good or bad thing.. I suppose it's better odds than say a 3 member trial by judge system...

[matsuki]

Boss's 86yo Alzheimer poster child mother just got called in for jury duty...

All it takes is an alpha male or female to get on the jury, and then all the other little puppets will march in step....

THIS....group "think" is bad enough in the corporate environment. Even without the Alzheimers to contend with, I don't want to imagine how insane a jury trial here with a bunch of J-seniors could be.

[IparryU]

Boss's 86yo Alzheimer poster child mother just got called in for jury duty...

All it takes is an alpha male or female to get on the jury, and then all the other little puppets will march in step....

THIS....group "think" is bad enough in the corporate environment. Even without the Alzheimers to contend with, I don't want to imagine how insane a jury trial here with a bunch of J-seniors could be.

Wow... it would be funny as fuck if they let her do it. Do they know she has Alzheimer's? It gots to be on their records somewhere dont it???

[matsuki]

Called it in and they removed her from their possibility list...though she should have already been ineligible due to her age? Good to see the J-Gov still has some departments using dead trees for filing.

[wagyl]

Wait a second. These people are selected from those who have the right to vote. Are you suggesting that people over a certain age should have no vote? That Alzheimer patients should have no vote? Arguments could be made for both sides here, but expecting the electoral roll to be notated for who is an Alzheimer's patient or your ageist fantasies is asking too much.

[Wage Slave]

I happen to know someone with Alzheimer's quite well. That person is not capable of doing jury service - no way, no how. How can you decide a case if you memory is impaired to the point you can't remember what was said 5 minutes ago?

Voting can't send someone to prison - fine. But jury service can.

[matsuki]

Wait a second. These people are selected from those who have the right to vote. Are you suggesting that people over a certain age should have no vote? That Alzheimer patients should have no vote? Arguments could be made for both sides here, but expecting the electoral roll to be notated for who is an Alzheimer's patient or your ageist fantasies is asking too much.

As much as I like making jokes about "the walking dead" that take an hour to cross the road, that wasn't what I was saying. According to the office the boss man called, 80 is the age limit...for jury duty. Now I didn't read that anywhere and a doofus on the phone is from the same office that sent her a jury summons....but while the source is dubious, my guess is he wasn't making it up.

As to 80+ people voting...in any country...if they have a right to vote, they have a right to vote. I'd rather weed out assholes of any age by an unbiased voting test...but the possibility for abuse with something like that seems to freak people out. (I'm still more freaked out by voters who aren't willing...or incapable of understanding the issues they're voting on and a gov nobody seems to trust but maybe that's just me)

[kurogane]

Are you suggesting that people over a certain age should have no vote? That Alzheimer patients should have no vote?

In order: certainly not, and in principle, probably yes. OTOH, in practice there's probably no need to formally strike them from the rolls; after all, they have Alzenheimers. If I can't remember when the damn election day is and what the voting booth hours are they sure as hell won't.

but expecting the electoral roll to be notated for who is an Alzheimer's patient or your ageist fantasies is asking too much.

Verily, verily. Besides, Occamites would argue there's no need. If someone is incapable of jury service all it takes is a phone call anyways. Just to don my jaunty Chapeau de Havill for a bit: expecting Japan to get things right other countries do isn't unreasonable (like supermarkets stocked with butter). Expecting them to do things no other country does either is just kneejerk.

[matsuki]

but expecting the electoral roll to be notated for who is an Alzheimer's patient or your ageist fantasies is asking too much.

Verily, verily. Besides, Occamites would argue there's no need. If someone is incapable of jury service all it takes is a phone call anyways. Just to don my jaunty Chapeau de Havill for a bit: expecting Japan to get things right other countries do isn't unreasonable (like supermarkets stocked with butter). Expecting them to do things no other country does either is just kneejerk.

I should also mention the woman is locked up in a special care facility...and has been there the past few years. I dunno if/how that is registered with the local ward office but it's not a recent condition and this isn't the first notice since she was locked up.

[kurogane]

Right, but it still makes more sense to not note that on unrelated government records that only need a simple phone call to correct. Indeed, it would seem weird to me to note that sort of information anywhere besides her health records. And just for a touch of Yokohammer, what if they did start to note that sort of information in government records? Would elderly people lining up at Gusto then need to pass a cognitive test to get some runny eggs and toast!!?????? Where does it all end!!!!!!!!!??????????????

[matsuki]

I guess going back to this...

That Alzheimer patients should have no vote?

Yes...they shouldn't be eligible to vote and therefore removed from the voter's database.

[Wage Slave]

I'm not so sure they shouldn't remain on the electoral register - It all depends on how far the disease has progressed. Many may well still have memories of being a lifetime supporter of one party or another and still want to vote for that party. I see little difference to the way the majority of people decide to vote. If the disease has progressed far enough to destroy old memories as well as recent then they won't likely have any desire to vote anyway.

In any case, what's the harm? If we trust people with power of attorney to run their financial affairs, then we can trust the same people to vote for them by proxy or decide not to vote for them at all. Whichever reflects a best assessment of their true interests.

Jury service is a whole different matter. Someone with the disease is not qualified to sit on a jury. Unless you can remember all the details and arguments of a case there is no way you can make a fair assessment of whether guilt has been proven.

Anyway here's the situation in the UK. I looked it up because, as I said, I know someone it affects:

Question: Can a person with dementia vote in the UK general and local elections.
Answer: Yes, a person with dementia can vote regardless of their capacity.
It is clearly stated in the Electoral Commission's guidance for Electoral Registration Officers that mental health conditions do not constitute a legal incapacity to vote, so a person would not be stopped from voting at the polling station.
However, it is important to note that the guidelines also state that the decision as to whether and how to vote at an election must be made by the elector themselves, and not by a carer or a person making decisions on behalf of the elector.

[wagyl]

I guess going back to this...

That Alzheimer patients should have no vote?

Yes...they shouldn't be eligible to vote and therefore removed from the voter's database.

Where do we draw the line? Is the opinion of one doctor with possible political favours to do for his masters good enough, or do we need a committee and a conspiracy? How is the decision reviewed in a dispute? What do we do about the pathologically right-wing? Or, to put it in a vernacular from not so long ago... Is Obamacare going to euthanase the elderly?

Wage Slave, I am not a full authority on the empanelling of lay judges here, but in almost all systems there are plenty of checks and balances to weed out the unsuitable juror, on grounds of prejudice as well as capacity. Unfortunately, a lot of the people you would want to be jurors manage to escape service too in that process, and you end up with those with time on their hands and nothing better to do.

[kurogane]

I guess going back to this...

That Alzheimer patients should have no vote?

Yes...they shouldn't be eligible to vote and therefore removed from the voter's database.

And again, back to my beloved Occamian Determinism: why bother going to all the hassle of removing people from a list that have already been effectively removed from the list? You do relaise that Alzheimer's can be fantastically debilitating, eh!? Also, as WS wrote above, if they can legally vote, let them vote. It's not like there's huge mobs of soiled Alzenheimer patients flying out of voting booths and endangering political freedom. Mind you, when more whiney entitlement-addled Baby Boomers start thinking everyday is $1.49 Day (aka Tuesday) it may actually become necessary to prevent political predation by conservative activists.

Besides, with all due and sincere sympathies to anybody related to a sufferer, this topic has at least as great comic potential as Steve Irwin's chosen method of departure. It is truly the cutting edge of coming comedy, and a surefire way to rile cat ladies everywhere.

[Wage Slave]

Wage Slave, I am not a full authority on the empanelling of lay judges here, but in almost all systems there are plenty of checks and balances to weed out the unsuitable juror, on grounds of prejudice as well as capacity. Unfortunately, a lot of the people you would want to be jurors manage to escape service too in that process, and you end up with those with time on their hands and nothing better to do.

I do have an interest so I checked for the UK:

Assuming you haven't been convicted of a crime unless you are:

advocates and solicitors, or
apprentices of and legal trainees employed by solicitors, or
officers and staff of any court, or
constables of any police force, or
police cadets, or
members of children's panels, or
those who are receiving medical treatment for mental disorder.

You are good to go.

Alzheimer's and other forms of dementia are caught by the last one. You might be called if you are on the electoral register. And there is no reason why not - mental illness is no bar to that. However, on the form you have to send back you have to confirm that none of the disqualifications above apply to you.

[matsuki]

those who are receiving medical treatment for mental disorder.

Indeed, "Alzheimers" isn't the only mental disorder that might make one's voting capacity a bit wonky.

[Wage Slave]

those who are receiving medical treatment for mental disorder.

Indeed, "Alzheimers" isn't the only mental disorder that might make one's voting capacity a bit wonky.

Perhaps, but that list was for eligibility for jury service - and quite right. Having Altzheimers or another mental disorder does NOT disqualify someone from voting in the UK. And I reckon that's right - After all, we have had a Monster Raving Loony Party for years and years and there are plenty of people of extremely limited cognitive capacity voting for UKIP. Denying the vote to people because they suffer from a mental illness is a very slippery slope.

It's not as if there's much evidence the average voter puts much thought or weighing of the evidence into it in any case.

[Grumpy Gramps]

I guess the best way to identify incapable voters would be the vote itself: Who does not vote for LDP - apart from being a traitor - must be out of their mind and should, therefore, lose their eligibility to vote with immediate effect, no matter what age, gender, sexual orientation, religion or - well, skin colour I am not so sure, but...

OTOH, often enough we hear from helmsmen of multinational giants, who are regular users of uppers, downers, betablockers or whatnot, basically living drug stores; no-one seems to doubt their ability to run their companies and to be responsible for the thousands of mouths to be fed in there. I find that somewhat more disturbing, but that's probably just me, Grumpy the dispiser of all politicians

[matsuki]

dispiser of all politicians

At the end of the day, pretty much THIS

[Samurai_Jerk]

Japan carries out first execution of prisoner sentenced by jury

Japan on Friday carried out executions of two death row prisoners, including the nation's first of a condemned inmate sentenced by jurors, officials said, as campaigners called for the country to abolish capital punishment.

The two executions for multiple murders bring to 14 the total number of death sentences carried out since Prime Minister Shinzo Abe took power in late 2012.

Sumitoshi Tsuda, 63, was hanged for killing three people in the city of Kawasaki, near Tokyo, in May 2009, a justice ministry official said.

It was Japan's first execution of a death row inmate sentenced by so-called lay judges, the ministry confirmed.