Ontake

[Wage Slave]

My opinion of the SDF rescue teams will be forever jaded by their not so thoroughly adult decision to do a campy rather try to rescue the survivors of the JAL 123 crash back in 1985.

And worse ... Even though the USAF were at the crash site, ready to drop in at a moment's notice, they were refused permission. Can't have the damn yanks showing up Japan's elite SDF, now can we.

Exactly right but was that a decision made by the SDF or by the creme de la creme who make up the politicians and senior civil servants around here?

[Yokohammer]

My opinion of the SDF rescue teams will be forever jaded by their not so thoroughly adult decision to do a campy rather try to rescue the survivors of the JAL 123 crash back in 1985.

And worse ... Even though the USAF were at the crash site, ready to drop in at a moment's notice, they were refused permission. Can't have the damn yanks showing up Japan's elite SDF, now can we.

Exactly right but was that a decision made by the SDF or by the creme de la creme who make up the politicians and senior civil servants around here?

Not sure who made the ultimate decision, but since ultimate responsibility lies with the government, I'm guessing that's it.

The USAF were there with the requisite nighttime search and rescue gear, and they were turned away while people were dying on the ground.

Sorta like the rescue teams that tried to enter the country after the Kobe quake being delayed for something like 72 hours* while their dogs were processed through quarantine.

Bureaucracy above all, even human life.

* Forgive me for not being arsed enough to dig up the actual figure ... I just remember it being way too long.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[kurogane]

Right..............the refusal of ready assistance............from an ally. That was a big hanging doodoo. Cluster feck me. I was going to mention the general Keystone Kops atmosphere that many said prevailed in Kobe as well. Now brain hurts.

Thanks fer that Yanpa. I took a longer look at the blog..........and came to that sort of confusion. Err, I meant: conclusion...........

[wagyl]

Events on Hakkoda in Aomori in 1997 might be context behind the SDF decision. I can remember it hit them hard at the time.

The last gas-related fatalities on the range occurred in 1997, when three Japan Ground Self-Defense Force personnel died. One member fell into a low-lying area — called a gas hole — and two of his peers who attempted to rescue him also died, according to prefectural officials.

Source: http://www.stripes.com/news/fear-of-tox ... s-1.108259 and once again search engines (more than just Google) almost failed me by all hits for "Self Defense Force" and "volcanic gas" pointing only to Ontake. The addition of Aomori was blissfully ignored.

[dimwit]

My opinion of the SDF rescue teams will be forever jaded by their not so thoroughly adult decision to do a campy rather try to rescue the survivors of the JAL 123 crash back in 1985.

And worse ... Even though the USAF were at the crash site, ready to drop in at a moment's notice, they were refused permission. Can't have the damn yanks showing up Japan's elite SDF, now can we.

Exactly right but was that a decision made by the SDF or by the creme de la creme who make up the politicians and senior civil servants around here?

Who knows? And that is a what I meant by the lack of transparancy and accountablity in Japan. In Canada, with crash of that scope there would have been a royal commision, the decision making process would have been flushed out, names would have been named and most importantly improvements in procedures would have been made that would have been to the benefit of everyone.

[wagyl]

In Canada, ... there would have been a royal commission, ... that would have been to the benefit of

the legal profession. Any wider benefits are purely ancillary, coincidental, and only when unavoidable and the findings cannot be shelved.

[Mike Oxlong]

My opinion of the SDF rescue teams will be forever jaded by their not so thoroughly adult decision to do a campy rather try to rescue the survivors of the JAL 123 crash back in 1985.

And worse ... Even though the USAF were at the crash site, ready to drop in at a moment's notice, they were refused permission. Can't have the damn yanks showing up Japan's elite SDF, now can we.

Exactly right but was that a decision made by the SDF or by the creme de la creme who make up the politicians and senior civil servants around here?

Not sure who made the ultimate decision, but since ultimate responsibility lies with the government, I'm guessing that's it.

The USAF were there with the requisite nighttime search and rescue gear, and they were turned away while people were dying on the ground.

Sorta like the rescue teams that tried to enter the country after the Kobe quake being delayed for something like 72 hours* while their dogs were processed through quarantine.

Bureaucracy above all, even human life.

* Forgive me for not being arsed enough to dig up the actual figure ... I just remember it being way too long.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That's what I was wondering about the Ontake rescue...who makes the call that there are no survivors so no point in risking rescuers' lives, and how is that determined?

Struggling to stay alive, Stanley Williams lifted himself out of the exploding volcano. Unable to use his broken legs, he crawled down the mountain slope and hid behind a large rock to find shelter from falling, fiery debris. Moments earlier, Williams and six fellow volcanologists (volcano scientists) had been wrapping up measurements inside the Galeras volcano in Colombia, South America, when it suddenly erupted. Boulders and hot gas from the exploding inferno crushed Williams's legs, fractured his skull, and burned his body extensively. But Williams was the lucky one. His six colleagues and three nearby tourists died in the blast. Ironically, Williams and his colleagues were part of an international team trying to save people's lives from deadly volcanoes. The measurements they were taking that January 1993 day were part of a decade-long effort to identify the signs of impending eruptions at the world's most dangerous volcanoes. As it turns out, says Williams, data from the tragic, unexpected explosion may finally give scientists the clues they have been searching for...

[dimwit]

That's what I was wondering about the Ontake rescue...who makes the call that there are no survivors so no point in risking rescuers' lives, and how is that determined?

That my good man may well be a state secret and even asking the question could result in some serious police questioning.

[kurogane]

Either that or they simply decided that the very small chance some of the victims that went there of their own volition might still be alive was not worth the risk to healthy people that didn't. And again, I call for a round of applause for the triumph of level heads and hearts. A lot of adrenaline junkies here in NA could learn some useful lessons on how to be adults, as could far too many hikers.

Soooooooo, Mike O, are you implying that they should have gone regardless, or just curious about the actual protocols involved? So you know, I am just curious two.

BTW, were there any signs or warnings that the poopoo might hit the hydrogen sulfide gas fan?????

[wagyl]

BTW, were there any signs or warnings that the poopoo might hit the hydrogen sulfide gas fan?????

No, and it is one of the monitored volcanoes. They monitor magma movements and surface buckling, but this eruption was most likely to be groundwater getting to a place that is too hot, becoming steam and blowing out old ash. That sort of thing they can't predict.

[Mike Oxlong]

Either that or they simply decided that the very small chance some of the victims that went there of their own volition might still be alive was not worth the risk to healthy people that didn't. And again, I call for a round of applause for the triumph of level heads and hearts. A lot of adrenaline junkies here in NA could learn some useful lessons on how to be adults, as could far too many hikers.

Soooooooo, Mike O, are you implying that they should have gone regardless, or just curious about the actual protocols involved? So you know, I am just curious two.

BTW, were there any signs or warnings that the poopoo might hit the hydrogen sulfide gas fan?????

Genuinely curious. I think a good case has been made here that in this case prudence was called for and exercised. Just wondering about the decision-making process. It has also been shown that in some cases inaction and refusal of offers to help have been poor judgements.

[IparryU]

My opinion of the SDF rescue teams will be forever jaded by their not so thoroughly adult decision to do a campy rather try to rescue the survivors of the JAL 123 crash back in 1985.

And worse ... Even though the USAF were at the crash site, ready to drop in at a moment's notice, they were refused permission. Can't have the damn yanks showing up Japan's elite SDF, now can we.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hammer, is this inside knowledge or was there a presser on this?

Tried to google around but got nothing.

[Mike Oxlong]

My opinion of the SDF rescue teams will be forever jaded by their not so thoroughly adult decision to do a campy rather try to rescue the survivors of the JAL 123 crash back in 1985.

And worse ... Even though the USAF were at the crash site, ready to drop in at a moment's notice, they were refused permission. Can't have the damn yanks showing up Japan's elite SDF, now can we.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hammer, is this inside knowledge or was there a presser on this?

Tried to google around but got nothing.

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airl ... _operation

[Yokohammer]

My opinion of the SDF rescue teams will be forever jaded by their not so thoroughly adult decision to do a campy rather try to rescue the survivors of the JAL 123 crash back in 1985.

And worse ... Even though the USAF were at the crash site, ready to drop in at a moment's notice, they were refused permission. Can't have the damn yanks showing up Japan's elite SDF, now can we.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hammer, is this inside knowledge or was there a presser on this?

Tried to google around but got nothing.

Yeah, see Mike's link ... it'll make your blood curdle.

At the time (this was way before the net and Wikipedia, of course) it was widely known in the circles I hung out with, probably because there were quite a few more military types in circulation locally back then who knew what what going on. I honestly can't remember if there was any press or not. But the Wikipedia piece Mike points to indicates that there must have been some sort of public record ... unfortunately minus the bits that might make someone accountable. To this day I still wonder if it wasn't just to prevent the USAF from being the heroes of the day. Maybe that's unfair, but I can't for the life of me come up with any other feasible reason. I mean ... people were dying on that mountain. Minutes and seconds counted. Why the fuck would you turn down help?

[matsuki]

My opinion of the SDF rescue teams will be forever jaded by their not so thoroughly adult decision to do a campy rather try to rescue the survivors of the JAL 123 crash back in 1985.

And worse ... Even though the USAF were at the crash site, ready to drop in at a moment's notice, they were refused permission. Can't have the damn yanks showing up Japan's elite SDF, now can we.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hammer, is this inside knowledge or was there a presser on this?

Tried to google around but got nothing.

Yeah, see Mike's link ... it'll make your blood curdle.

At the time (this was way before the net and Wikipedia, of course) it was widely known in the circles I hung out with, probably because there were quite a few more military types in circulation locally back then who knew what what going on. I honestly can't remember if there was any press or not. But the Wikipedia piece Mike points to indicates that there must have been some sort of public record ... unfortunately minus the bits that might make someone accountable. To this day I still wonder if it wasn't just to prevent the USAF from being the heroes of the day. Maybe that's unfair, but I can't for the life of me come up with any other feasible reason. I mean ... people were dying on that mountain. Minutes and seconds counted. Why the fuck would you turn down help?

Well, the people in charge on the J-side aren't always promoted to those positions because they're the best qualified/thinkers..."Japaneeeese Style"

[IparryU]

My opinion of the SDF rescue teams will be forever jaded by their not so thoroughly adult decision to do a campy rather try to rescue the survivors of the JAL 123 crash back in 1985.

And worse ... Even though the USAF were at the crash site, ready to drop in at a moment's notice, they were refused permission. Can't have the damn yanks showing up Japan's elite SDF, now can we.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hammer, is this inside knowledge or was there a presser on this?

Tried to google around but got nothing.

Yeah, see Mike's link ... it'll make your blood curdle.

At the time (this was way before the net and Wikipedia, of course) it was widely known in the circles I hung out with, probably because there were quite a few more military types in circulation locally back then who knew what what going on. I honestly can't remember if there was any press or not. But the Wikipedia piece Mike points to indicates that there must have been some sort of public record ... unfortunately minus the bits that might make someone accountable. To this day I still wonder if it wasn't just to prevent the USAF from being the heroes of the day. Maybe that's unfair, but I can't for the life of me come up with any other feasible reason. I mean ... people were dying on that mountain. Minutes and seconds counted. Why the fuck would you turn down help?

They are dumb as rocks that's why. Not sure if it would be a financial obligation if they did help, but I am quite sure that if the Yanks are having to come in and do the JSDF's work, getting them off this rock would be much more difficult.

Anyone remember that land mind that the JSDF EOD unit couldn't defuse??? Ya...

[wagyl]

Regarding JAL 123, there is the conspiracy theory that the tail was shot in a JSDF exercise near Izu which went wrong, and they didn't want anyone else finding the evidence before they could sanitise it. All entirely circumstantial, but the conspiracy theorists say "well it would be, wouldn't it."

[kurogane]

Hammer, is this inside knowledge or was there a presser on this?

Tried to google around but got nothing.

I would say it is common knowledge amongst anybody that cares about official incompetence and has been around long enough to remember when that wound was still fresh. All the groovy lefties I hung out with in the late 80s knew and were outraged at the priority given to face over life. Also, so you know, the quietly touchy natives can get very not quietly touchy when the subject is brought up, though YMMV. It's a Face Thang. A sort of earlier pre-recession version of the Kobe S&R FU.

But as Wagyl noted, The Truth is Out There

[kurogane]

Genuinely curious. I think a good case has been made here that in this case prudence was called for and exercised. Just wondering about the decision-making process. It has also been shown that in some cases inaction and refusal of offers to help have been poor judgements.

Yeah, agreed. If nothing else more information = good thing. And we will always have the Kobe disaster foreign rescue dogs 4 day quarantine fiasco to remind us how far bad it can go. If I remember, one of them actually found a survivor on the 5th or 6th day. Which is nice because it means they could have found them on the 2nd day............... Having been trapped under a collapsed Murphy Bed frame for all of a several minute eternity that is one experience I can relate to with embodied terror.

[Coligny]

I can see how it might look like that. However, having worked on oil rigs I know just how deadly Hydrogen Sulphide is. It incapacitates in a matter of a few seconds and kills in a minute or so and frighteningly low concentrations. And it doesn't matter how strong and brave you are. The only way to survive is don full face breathing apparatus and move away from it. An full air cylinder will give you perhaps 40 minutes assuming light physical exertion.

Now, nature is an unpredictable bitch. The concentration on an erupting volcano may be 10 ppm now but there is no saying it can't shoot up at any second. If that happens you will need sufficient bottled air to make you way well clear of the mountain. To add to your misery, H2S is a lot heavier than air so it will follow you down the mountain.

Add in the fact that the chances of anyone up there surviving the rocks, ash and H2S was infinitesimally small so it was not really a rescue mission but a mission to recover the bodies. Adding more bodies to be recovered, is the least useful thing in the world.

A bit late to be still pissed of at this, but Japan like all country with enough money and paranoia during the cold war have loads of these and variants:

image.jpg

That's a type 82 NBC recon vehicle. So if they have the training and gear to fight of Russkies during an NBC attack, maybe searching for grand'pa and their dog might not be to much trouble... Even better... Seen as a real life exercise to see if it was money well spend. (And at 13.5 t it's below the S80/CH53E slingload capacity of 16t... So it can be airlifted if needed)

While the gas emitted are dangerous... Even ebay carry 30min evac only gas masks for pennies... As usual with the japanese army, when it's for raping women in Nankin everybody is up and ready, when there is a job to be done... Stop... There might be a risk, better call it of...

[Coligny]

Also...

I'm not leaving my bed today...

image.jpg

[Wage Slave]

I can see how it might look like that. However, having worked on oil rigs I know just how deadly Hydrogen Sulphide is. It incapacitates in a matter of a few seconds and kills in a minute or so and frighteningly low concentrations. And it doesn't matter how strong and brave you are. The only way to survive is don full face breathing apparatus and move away from it. An full air cylinder will give you perhaps 40 minutes assuming light physical exertion.

Now, nature is an unpredictable bitch. The concentration on an erupting volcano may be 10 ppm now but there is no saying it can't shoot up at any second. If that happens you will need sufficient bottled air to make you way well clear of the mountain. To add to your misery, H2S is a lot heavier than air so it will follow you down the mountain.

Add in the fact that the chances of anyone up there surviving the rocks, ash and H2S was infinitesimally small so it was not really a rescue mission but a mission to recover the bodies. Adding more bodies to be recovered, is the least useful thing in the world.

A bit late to be still pissed of at this, but Japan like all country with enough money and paranoia during the cold war have loads of these and variants:

image.jpg

That's a type 82 NBC recon vehicle. So if they have the training and gear to fight of Russkies during an NBC attack, maybe searching for grand'pa and their dog might not be to much trouble... Even better... Seen as a real life exercise to see if it was money well spend. (And at 13.5 t it's below the S80/CH53E slingload capacity of 16t... So it can be airlifted if needed)

While the gas emitted are dangerous... Even ebay carry 30min evac only gas masks for pennies... As usual with the japanese army, when it's for raping women in Nankin everybody is up and ready, when there is a job to be done... Stop... There might be a risk, better call it of...

Perhaps, but I don't think those ebay masks will be a bit of use against Hydrogen Sulphide. And nor will those vehicles unless they are carrying a bottled air supply all of their own. You have to be wearing something like https://www.scottsafety.com/en/us/Pages/ProductDetail.aspx?productdetail=ISCBA+SCBA. And it will give about 30 minutes assuming light exertion. The only thing to do with H2S is get away from it as far and as quickly as you can. Until you can come back with a big supply of bottled air anyway.

I looked at that vehicle with Google - There is no mention of it having its own air supply or of it even being airtight. And anyway weren't the people on tracks up the mountain?

[wagyl]

Wage Slave, how dare you puncture somebody's dream with facts.

[Coligny]

The picture is a generic type 82. While I was referring to the Type 82 NBC. NBC means nukular, bacteriologic, chemical. It's a grade of military vehicle or equipment that totally isolate the crew/wearer from the environment. Basically an NBC type 82 is like a submarine on wheels (water crossing ability still dependent on engine air intake/exhaust waterproofing). They got their own oxygen reserve and in lock down mode do not have any exchange between inside and outside air. Bigger models sometimes have positive pressure/decon showers to allow personnel to go in and out. Smaller might get away with extensive filter system. It's not a one of a kind, it's usually a retrofit for existing scout/APC or command vehicles. The list can become really long really quick.

Infantry NBC gear is basically a swimming suit for dryland. Same level as vehicles, include air bottles and airtight wholebody suit (no exposed skin). They are designed for limited combat/recon in combat zones.

Pilots NBC suits have the same level of isolation but include all the radio and ejector seat harness/parachute connectors needed for regular military jet operation.

While made in china with the usual reserve on their performance, those -evacuation- masks have H2S rated cartridge:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Half-Gas ... 55182.html
Survivalist forums sometimes have list of current surplus gas masks availability with their potential cartridge expiry dates based on model production or fielding batches. The evac rated models are usually considered usable for 20 to 30 minutes to allow escape from the threat zone. But those are the stuff you keep with your choko bar when you go hiking, not the army/pro stuff used to actually operate in the threat zone. So, don't come telling me that the army could not do much in the 30 minutes allowed, that is not my point, that is not the purpose of these specific masks. Those are just a good idea to keep around if you like mountain/volcano climbing.

Wagyl, you didn't lose time to make an ass or yourself... Good job sonny... You should have paid at least a little attention to the prep done in central europe for scenarios concerning a Soviet invasion toward West Germany and France. It's the kind of prepping that also gave us the A10, AH64, AS342 and VAB... Basically everyone was getting ready to fight in hilly dense central-european forrest, while having to cross river chased by Red battletanks under a shower or chemical weapons. (Also explain the number of tracked bridge-laying vehicles and floating bridge build back then)

[Russell]

Methinks the soldiers committing the Rape of Nanking were of a different generation...

[Coligny]

Netherland airforce pilot NBC flight suit (vintage)

image.jpg

[Coligny]

Marine corps NBC (they call it CBRM these days /chem-bio-radio-nuku) gear:

image.jpg

[Wage Slave]

OK, so given sufficient equipment, in particular bottled air, they could get men up that mountain. But they couldn't have done it without the equipment on site. So rushing up the mountain without breathing equipment in the non-existent hope grandpa had somehow survived doesn't seem all that smart to me.

[Coligny]

OK, so given sufficient equipment, in particular bottled air, they could get men up that mountain. But they couldn't have done it without the equipment on site. So rushing up the mountain without breathing equipment in the non-existent hope grandpa had somehow survived doesn't seem all that smart to me.

They had to helidrop the rescue teams.
Nobody was on site...
From what I saw on TV they were rotating UH60 to the side of the volcano.

Japan is quite small... And even if the wheeled vehicles where to bulky/heavy to airlift, sending troops with the proper respiratory gear when working near an erupting volcano sound like common sense 101.

Do they even have chemical accident response teams ? It's not science fiction, it's basic firemen capacity, and they have the coolest trucks...

[Coligny]

Various firedept chemical/ "technological risks" gear:

image.jpg

image.jpg

image.jpg