3 FG arrested for filming pet food

[katakori]

There IS a bigger picture in most situations.

thank you. i was trying to find this precise sentence.
they are not hippies and it is not about cuteness.

[Taro Toporific]

Foreign activists arrested for cutting whaling net in Wakayama
(Mainichi Shimbun, Japan, Nov. 19, 2003)
WAKAYAMA -- Two members of an American environmentalist group were arrested for cutting a whaling net with a knife at the bay of a whaling town, police said.
Allison Helene Lance Watson, a leading member of the U.S.-based Sea Shepherd group and Alexander Hendrik Cornelissen were charged with obstructing work after they cut the 50-meter-long net on Tuesday....
Both Watson and Cornelissen, a Sea Shepherd member and Dutch photographer, have denied the allegations.

[japslapper]

Two members of an American environmentalist group were arrested for cutting a whaling net with a knife at the bay of a whaling town, police said. .........
Both Watson and Cornelissen, a Sea Shepherd member and Dutch photographer, have denied the allegations

Denials? Bollocks!

Hippies are soon to be deported

[Nagged]

One way to get your name in the paper...


Stuff the dolphins, Save the Tanukis!

[japslapper]

Stuff the dolphins, Save the Tanukis

No No No. Dolphins is best eaten as yaki-niku - dont need to stuff them - thats what you do with turkeys. Save the tanukis? Nah - have tanuki for starter - tanuki soufflee is great!

[Taro Toporific]

Stuff the dolphins, Save the Tanukis

No No No. Dolphins is best eaten as yaki-niku - dont need to stuff them - thats what you do with turkeys. Save the tanukis? Nah - have tanuki for starter - tanuki soufflee is great!

Since it's LUNCHTIME...
Let's SCIENCE for Lunch!
Japan finds new breed of whaleThursday November 20, 2003/ The Guardian
A new species of whale has been discovered by a team of scientists in Japan. The whale, which has a distinctly broad, flat head, belongs to the family of filter-feeding baleen whales....

------------------
Watch the obaa-chan help in Scientific Whaling, video here http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/videonews/jnn/20031120/20031120-00000008-jnn-soci.html

[Caustic Saint]

Since it LUNCHTIME...
Let's SCIENCE for Lunch!
Japan finds new breed of whaleThursday November 20, 2003/ The Guardian
A new species of whale has been discovered by a team of scientists in Japan. The whale, which has a distinctly broad, flat head, belongs to the family of filter-feeding baleen whales....

So far they've only found dead ones (or had the carcasses from the "research" vessel), so I guess "species" is the correct headline.

If they'd caught a live one I'd expect it to read: Japan finds new flavor of whale

[Nagged]

Stuff the dolphins, Save the Tanukis

No No No. Dolphins is best eaten as yaki-niku - dont need to stuff them - thats what you do with turkeys. Save the tanukis? Nah - have tanuki for starter - tanuki soufflee is great!

Got me there old boy. Touche!

[devicenull]

lol, they called protests where 4 people showed up, got no news coverage, and were basically ignored a success.

dirty hippies are also stupid. i like how they had their cameras confiscated... cant wait till they get deported.

they sure did show their outrage to japan... for some reason i think that i could acheive similar success with a petition to force japan to <insert crazy outlandish idea here>

[Nagged]

From what I know of this story, these people were a complete joke...

It seems that the whalers are actually quite careful not to hunt endangered species as this would only end up in hurting themselves in the long run.

These people should have done some unbiased reseach first and left the silly emotion out of their arguments.

[Taro Toporific]

A Taji sign reads: "Let's play with dolphins."

Japan's 'Town of Whales' begins to question controversial hunt
TAIJI, Japan (AFP) Nov 26, 2003
Just down the road from a cove where thousands of dolphins are slaughtered for food every year in this coastal town in western Japan, a sign reads: "Let's play with dolphins."
In a bizarre juxtaposition, the dolphin-hunting industry here operates side by side with a lucrative trade built on tourists' enjoyment of the live marine mammals that enables visitors to swim with dolphins and watch killer whales perform....
....After visiting a whale museum that puts on daily dolphin and killer whale performances only a few hundred meters (yards) away, Egawa admitted the thought of dolphins herded in for the kill was unsettling.
"It makes you lose your appetite," said Egawa
"Bacon": rancid whale fat, yum.

[Nagged]

I don't really see anything surprising. The town has grown up with whaling, it's a very big part of their daily lives, so bilateral feelings as above are perfectly natural. Look at how farmer's kids befriend calves and lambs, is it so different?

I went to one of those tourist type sheep farms back home where adults and kids alike get to see how sheep are shorn for their wool. Very nice but I wonder what happens to these sheep when their shearing days are over? In someone's or something's stomach would be a fair bet. Life's tough but waste not, want not.

Although the whalers at Taiji have commercial considerations foremost in mind (hey, they have to eat too), after having their lives revolving around whales and dolphins for a few hundred years, the whalers probably feel a far closer affinity for them than most of us casual observers could really understand.

Let's not forget that whales and dolphins kill other creatures, including themselves. Read "Beached whales 'bullied' to death".

Also, with depleted fish stocks aorund the world's oceans, culling some of the more populous species would be the environmentally sound thing to do. Hence my signature below, it work's both ways.

[GuyJean]

Let's not forget that whales and dolphins kill other creatures, including themselves. Read "Beached whales 'bullied' to death".

Also, with depleted fish stocks aorund the world's oceans, culling some of the more populous species would be the environmentally sound thing to do. Hence my signature below, it work's both ways.

I agree with most of your post. But are you suggesting the depleted fish stocks are caused by the more populous species, like whales and dolphins that kill other creatures?

Are whales and dolphins so abundant that they're wiping out other species? I would think seals would be more of a problem. I suggest killing Tama-chan first. Or we could kill selected humans, abiding by strict quotas of course, to replenish the fish stock.

Wouldn't the "environmentally sound thing to do" be first to determine the biggest reason for the depletion?

Actually, I don't know the biggest reason. But I'd bet it's not Flipper.

Just my dirty hippie opinoin.

GJ

[Nagged]

Thanks for your dirty hippie opnion . It's very much appreciated.

Here are some things to keep in mind.

When there are too many predators in any environment, the chances of them wiping out their prey species is that much higher. This will ultimately lead to either their own extinction or the predators switching to other species for food that may also cause serious imbalances.

The fisheries situation is a problem that has been caused by many nations, not just Japan, it also happens in my own country. However, while protection may serve a purpose if done in the right fashion, needless protection of some species can lead to very serious problems to the entire ecology.

One examples is African elephants which are regularly culled to prevent overpopulation. Too many elephants, not enough food to go around for both themselves and other species.

Wouldn't the "environmentally sound thing to do" be first to determine the biggest reason for the depletion?

Yes, it's very evident that Man is largely responsible for these enviromental imbalances in the first place, but given the chance, animals are very capable of eating themselves into extinction, even Flipper. In order to protect what remains, some intelligent conservation policy is required.

It's definitely an uphill battle, but definitely one worth fighting for. Certainly no more noble cause than saving the planet exists. Unfortunately, some extremists seem to do more harm than good.

Killing off people? The idea is tempting , but who decides? Judging by world history, this plan of action has not worked so far.

Man's best bet is to join forces to work for our mutual survival. It's not just food, we have very serious pollution problems that should take precedence. These problems are already being addressed to an extent, but will it be enough? Will it be in time?

[japslapper]

[quote="&quot"]
needless protection of some species can lead to very serious problems to the entire ecology..................................
In order to protect what remains, some intelligent conservation policy is required.

quote]

Well said Nagged - very eloquently put.

Intelligent conservation is essential - if humans wish to continue with the present population expansion - then allowances have to made in the ecosystem - and possibly some calculated extinctions. Any conservation system should work on the basis of food web (called keystone species) and energy cycles - focusing on any species or group of species because of cuteness or such is illogical and flawed. I cant help noticing how many conservation organisations web pages are plastered with dogs,cats and dolphins but nobody mentions the tapeworm species - present in each animal - and possibly representing an unique species within each animal!

I say eat the dolphins, in moderation - but take care not to disturb a unique tape worm population!



In Taiji - when I was on relatively good terms with the hippies - they made some strange comments to me about human extermination - how wrong we all are for having kids etc . It's a commonly held belief that people have too many kids - but that is not supported by the statistics - people now are are not breeding like rabbits they are just not droping like flies - it means people are living longer and getting educated which can only be good for the world and the environment

Fellow FGs I recomend this book - it dispels many of the myths Eco-warriors throw around to raise funds - and highlights the real areas for concern and immediate action. Unfortunately for SeaShepherd et al dolphin hunting is not a concern.....(not unless your a dolphin that is )

[GuyJean]

Thanks for your dirty hippie opnion . It's very much appreciated.

Thanks for your response. But in actuality, I'm not a dirty hippie]When there are too many predators in any environment, the chances of them wiping out their prey species is that much higher.[/quote]
So, how did too many predators occur in the environment? From protectionism? Or, could it be that the fish lower in the food chain were over-fished by mainly one 'predator', causing this problem of too many predators? Again, I ask; what is the reason? Over-protection, or over-fishing.

This will ultimately lead to either their own extinction or the predators switching to other species for food that may also cause serious imbalances.

Evolution, baby.. I once read that Pirana were originally vegetarian]The fisheries situation is a problem that has been caused by many nations, not just Japan, it also happens in my own country.[/quote]
I agree. I don't think Japan is the biggest reason. But I also don't see conservationists having much of a voice here, either.

Wasn't it Japan that changed the way people fished by introducing huge company-owned, fishing vessels (factories) that could travel anywhere in the world using the, now outlawed, fishing technique of long-lining?

However, while protection may serve a purpose if done in the right fashion, needless protection of some species can lead to very serious problems to the entire ecology.

So, there is my basic question]it's very evident that Man is largely responsible for these enviromental imbalances in the first place, but given the chance, animals are very capable of eating themselves into extinction, even Flipper.[/quote]Eating themselves into extinction? Hhhhhmmm.. I would think if the planet were without humans, animals would eat themselves into depletion, but not extinction. As the hunted decreased, so too would the hunter.. Of course, if they changed the food source, they would continue to prosper.. And humans ARE a part of the ecosystem. So fuck it.. Let everyone do whatever they, their governments, and their mega-companies want.. The conservationists are probably just postponing the inevitable anyway. Prolonging the suffering.. Those bastards!

In order to protect what remains, some intelligent conservation policy is required.

And who is going to make this 'intelligent conservation policy'? Even people in the middle are labeled as extreme by both extremists.. Everyone has an agenda.

GJ

[GuyJean]

It's a commonly held belief that people have too many kids - but that is not supported by the statistics - people now are are not breeding like rabbits they are just not droping like flies - it means people are living longer and getting educated which can only be good for the world and the environment

Huh? So, are you saying the world's population is decreasing? What statistics show this?

GJ

[japslapper]

So, are you saying the world's population is decreasing? What statistics show this?

I didnt say the worlds population is [b]decreasing[/b] I said the rate of reproduction is decreasing. People are having less kids - but those kids have a higher quality of life, thus live longer - which obviously has an effect on the population size and demographics - in other words the average age of the world population is getting older.....( and wiser)

You want stats? Read the pre mentioned book or check out the UN stats pages

[GuyJean]

I didnt say the worlds population is decreasing I said the rate of reproduction is decreasing.

I see.. I assumed a lowered rate of reproduction would therefore translate to a decrease in population, even if I factored in the longer life expectancy. Because I also assumed that 80% of the worlds population isn't living longer..

Less developed countries, home to 81 percent of the world's population, have 90 percent of the world's births per year. But infant mortality rates are significantly higher in those nations. - http://www.prb.org/Template.cfm?Section=PRB&template=/Content/ContentGroups/PTarticle/July-Sep2002/Has_Global_Growth_Reached_Its_Peak_.htm

The outcome depends greatly on birth rate trends in China and India, which are home to nearly 38 percent of the world's population. China's birth rate has been low for many years, with no apparent prospect of rising. In India, however, the birth rate's decline has ended, at least for now, as higher fertility and slower decline in India's populous northern states have begun to have a noticeable effect on national trends. - http://www.prb.org/Content/ContentGroups/Datasheets/wpds2002/2002_World_Population_Data_Sheet.htm

People are having less kids - but those kids have a higher quality of life, thus live longer - which obviously has an effect on the population size and demographics - in other words the average age of the world population is getting older.....( and wiser)

I wish I was as optimistic as yourself.. I think I'm too bitter sometimes, but I see a huge discrepency with the haves and have nots]The number of hungry people in the developing world increased by 18 million in the second half of the 1990s after dropping by 37 million in the first half of the decade, according to "The State of Food Insecurity in the World 2003." The FAO estimates that 842 million people were undernourished from 1999-2001, the most recent year for which figures were available. - http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/11/25/un.hunger/index.html[/quote]
Although, life expectancy IS improving. - http://w3.whosea.org/eip/tab24.htm - But now people have more time to have kids.. or one spoiled kid.

Do you really think the American general population is getting smarter?

I hope you're right..

Another cool site I found while googlin' around - http://www.prb.org/Template.cfm?Section=PRB&template=/Content/ContentGroups/PTarticle/July-Sep2002/Has_Global_Growth_Reached_Its_Peak_.htm

GJ

[Nagged]

Gentlemen, thank you for your information and opinions.

I certainly appreciate this kind of serious discussion as opposed to mere flaming.

I would like to reiterate my belief that Man is indeed the main offender in disturbing the environment. (Actually I would have thought it fairly obvious) Both overprotection and overfishing are disadvantageous. If I have not made that clear in my previous post, please accept my sincere apologies for not having done so correctly. Sometimes we are too busy presenting our own views to realize that we believe the same thing.

Yes, conservation in Japan is not as active as in some other countries, yet I'd daresay that Japan is not alone in this category. Japan can be slow to change but this does not mean it is impossible to do so, the fact that concerned people exist in the first place speaks for itself.

Yes, overuse of any natural resource, animal, vegetable or mineral, especially on a industrial scale is a bad thing too. Poisoning the planet is another serious issue.

Who decides policy? An excellent question. Governments and conservationists fight each other as well as among themselves. My main concern is that we will not work together until the last possible moment. To counter this, let's not leave the matter to others, let's educate ourselves.

Pessimism can be realistic, optimism gives us reason to soldier on. I would prefer to believe that there is still hope, but it's has to start with us.

[japslapper]

quote GuyJean

I wish I was as optimistic as yourself.. I think I'm too bitter sometimes, but I see a huge discrepency with the haves and have nots; people ARE getting better, smarter and living longer as long as they live in the right neighborhood...

When talking about global issues it is important to look at the big picture. Exceptions can be usefull - but usually cloud the picture. I am trying to say that in general the quality of life for people is on the up. In terms of numbers and in terms of percent those at the "bottom" are decreasing (and stats do support that) - however I will agree the discrepency between the richest of the richest(mostly in the US) and the poorest of the poorest is large - and seems at times to be widening .

Look at history - even 50 years ago, were there more or fewer people without clean water, schooling, medical etc? In all nations in general there is a trend upwards. The numbers support not pessimism, or optamism but realism - The furture is better for most people most of the time, but at a steady pace!

Is the past really better? (Ok may be better for a few days of pleasure because of more unspoilt nature etc.... )

It`s good that people are living longer - it allows for education to kick in and people to make informed choices about the manegment of resources.
Many problems with natural resource manegment are due to education - or lack of. If people are living in a food - to mouth cycle blighted by disease then how can they be concerned that the monkey they are eating is the last in a line?

With my last comment I connect into my dislike of the "hippies" running around telling other nations what to do - especially when they originate from rich western cities with a surplus or resources......

I adamently believe that a big part of the disparity could be dealt with by dealing with the issue of fresh water - fresh water is central to so many things. If you can stop disease for a while then it allows the poor to step out of the poverty cycle - just for a while and allow them to move up. Really its very cheap, affordable and do-able - if we all gave a pound/dollar/euro or two to water projects then we would make a big difference.


http://www.worldwaterday.org/2001/index.html

We should give our cash to projects like the above - not dirty hippies with sentimentality problems

Do you really think the American general population is getting smarter?

Really, GJ with a question like that you are asking for trouble......

[Nagged]

Things have obviously improved in some countries, mostly due to education and hard work by those concerned. Where improvement has not taken place, it is usually due to politics taking precedence over people's welfare.

I've known rough times when I was younger but I have always had access to clean drinking water and in plentiful supply too. Life would have been unthinkable without at least this most basic of amenities.

I worked my way into a better life, but I am keenly aware that I was only able to do so because the framework for improvement was already there.

This thread seems to have gotten away from the environmental issues and steered itself to the usual political and philosophical meanderings. However, I would like to say that helping the less fortunate help themselves is also a very good way of us helping ourselves at the same time. And I would most definitely agree that positive action is what really counts.

[japslapper]

This thread seems to have gotten away from the environmental issues and steered itself to the usual political and philosophical meanderings.

Quite the contary old chap. The issues are very linked. To deal with the conservation issues one needs education (even applicable to many hippies). The largest thwart to education is the poverty cycle (admitedly getting smaller as a proportion) - and the biggest and easyist problem to solve is the issue of fresh water supplies. If we could help the bottom end humanity we would ultimately be helping conservation - and in a way that is long term and sustainable

[GuyJean]

and the biggest and easyist problem to solve is the issue of fresh water supplies. If we could help the bottom end humanity we would ultimately be helping conservation - and in a way that is long term and sustainable

So Dean Kamen's cheap water purifier will make people smarter?

..Kamen developed a closed system, powered by whatever fuel is at hand, that traps the energy released when the boiled water vapor recondenses. Essentially, he's recycling heat. Result: a low-power, low-maintenance device that will cost around $1,000 to manufacture and makes 10 gal. of drinkable water an hour... He's exploring distribution strategies in Bangladesh, and later this month he'll head to Africa to meet with Rwanda's President. - http://www.time.com/time/2003/inventions/invwater.html

GJ

[Nagged]

This thread seems to have gotten away from the environmental issues and steered itself to the usual political and philosophical meanderings.

Quite the contary old chap. The issues are very linked. To deal with the conservation issues one needs education (even applicable to many hippies). The largest thwart to education is the poverty cycle (admitedly getting smaller as a proportion) - and the biggest and easyist problem to solve is the issue of fresh water supplies. If we could help the bottom end humanity we would ultimately be helping conservation - and in a way that is long term and sustainable

I see your point and absolutely agree. What I meant by political and philosophical meanderings was ramblings over who decides policy. No two people will ever entirely agree, let along over six billion of us. I still believe that action rather than words is what gets results.

I was just reading that half the world population is under 25 years old. With such large numbers of young people, this would very much support your view (and mine) that education is paramount if we are going to save the environment as well as ourselves.

And yes, I also think that hippies should get their facts straight. As you well should know...

I still get a good laugh at looking at the Sea Sheperd site. I think their propaganda must be written by a six year old.

[japslapper]

I still get a good laugh at looking at the Sea Sheperd site. I think their propaganda must be written by a six year old.

...I know and it makes me sick that some folk will believe it and cough up their hard earned cash. I have had a few evil thoughts lately concerning SS. I wanna know is hacking into their page to alter some things feasible? How illegal is it? etc etc. Taro do you know? I know jack about computers.......

[ramchop]

Fellow FGs I recomend this book - it dispels many of the myths Eco-warriors throw around to raise funds - and highlights the real areas for concern and immediate action. Unfortunately for SeaShepherd et al dolphin hunting is not a concern.....(not unless your a dolphin that is )

I've been keeping an eye out for it. I came across interesting views on the book and the issues in it at http://publicaddress.net/default,729.sm#post729:

Self-described "sceptical environmentalist" Bjorn Lomborg will speak in Wellington tomorrow, at the invitation of the Business Roundtable - and a lot of people who should know better will make arses of themselves.

It is not that Lomborg is a charlatan. His book, The Skeptical Environmentalist, offers a fresh - and possibly very useful - perspective on environmental management. Employing the tools of his trade - he's a statistician - he attempts to set environmental problems in a broader context, and suggests both that some problems aren't as bad as they appear, and that we need to reassess our priorities.

Well and good. But the tendency of some people to treat the Dane like the Second Coming - and dismiss various bodies of genuine scientific expertise while they're at it - is actually quite embarrassing.

[devicenull]

I still get a good laugh at looking at the Sea Sheperd site. I think their propaganda must be written by a six year old.

...I know and it makes me sick that some folk will believe it and cough up their hard earned cash. I have had a few evil thoughts lately concerning SS. I wanna know is hacking into their page to alter some things feasible? How illegal is it? etc etc. Taro do you know? I know jack about computers.......

...
hello there jeffk

[japslapper]

What lies!

http://www.seashepherd.org/media_031201_1.html

charges laid against them in connection with the freeing of 15 dolphins on November 18, 2003 in Taiji, Japan.

They didnt release any dolphins (I have a bit of one of these mentioned beasts in my freezer ) ....silly buggers they just cut a net - in broad daylight! Right now I am enjoying Japanese (in)justice

[Taro Toporific]

What lies!
http://www.seashepherd.org/media_031201_1.html

charges laid against them in connection with the freeing of 15 dolphins on November 18, 2003 in Taiji, Japan.

....silly buggers they just cut a net - in broad daylight! Right now I am enjoying Japanese (in)justice

Sea Shepherd pair kept in jail for freeing dolphinsJapan Today,- Tuesday, December 2, 2003 at 09:00 JST
TAIJI, Wakayama — Two activists from the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society have been ordered detained for an additional 10 days for freeing 15 dolphins in Wakayama Prefecture.
Allison Lance Watson and Alex Cornelissen have spent 14 days in jail without any charges laid against them in connection with the freeing of the dolphins on Nov 18 in Taiji. On Sunday, they were taken from jail to appear before a judge who ordered them to be held until Dec 9