Table saws

[Russell]

I foresee that I will seriously need a table saw in the near future, so better start discussing about it.

Safety first, so I want one with a riving knife. That is standard in the US and the EU (and I think even required by law), so anything less will not do.

If you want to know what could happen without a riving knife watch this video:

Yeah, the guy did it by purpose and he didn't hurt himself, but he admits afterwards that he was an idiot to even try it.

In Japan most table saws (and hand circular saws) do not have riving knives for some reason.

Two models I found that have one are:

1. The Bosch 10inch worksite Table SAW 4100-09, which is highly evaluated, but also pretty expensive, especially as it is a parallel import from the US. I suppose it does not have metric units for its fence, which would be another problem.

2. The StaxTools 655 ”MEMPHIS”. This saw appears to be based on the Ridgid R4510 Table Saw, available in the US. Its fence is said to be pretty good, but its motor and bearings are its weak point according to some reviews. However, the StaxTools is not an identical model, and it is rated as 100V 50/60 Hz, so I suppose there will be a motor in it of Japanese make. Here is the link to the company that makes them. They seem to have a waiting list of a couple of months, according to this blog.

Does anybody have experience with this table saw of StaxTools, or any other good and affordable table saws?

[Coligny]

Not the answer you are looking for...

But I have a tabblesaw...

And the second i find the proper keyword on amazon.jp I'll dump it to use a tracksaw instead:

https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=track ... 24&bih=649

image.jpg

Not saying tablesaws are useless... Just that a combo tracksaw and mittersaw sounds much better...

[Russell]

Not the answer you are looking for...

But I have a tabblesaw...

And the second i find the proper keyword on amazon.jp I'll dump it to use a tracksaw instead:

https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=track ... 24&bih=649

image.jpg

Not saying tablesaws are useless... Just that a combo tracksaw and mittersaw sounds much better...

If you have a hand circular saw, you could build your own jig...

BTW, what's wrong with your table saw?

And what is the alternative if you want to use a dado blade?

[Coligny]

Some shitty no name stuff from kahma. Got a bulky blade cover but not anti backslash knife... So i'm barebacking it...

Track saws plunge, unlike circular saws. Like for router with plunge base, thats quite a bit of a difference. Also, unlike this simple guide, they are guide against left or right deviation.

And... A dado stack... Is the equivalent of few pass of a regular blade, not exactly magic or anything . Just expensive... If you have a router, the dado stack become a clumsy redundancy... Setting it up is much more annoying than switching a router bit.

[Russell]

Some shitty no name stuff from kahma. Got a bulky blade cover but not anti backslash knife... So i'm barebacking it...

Track saws plunge, unlike circular saws. Like for router with plunge base, thats quite a bit of a difference. Also, unlike this simple guide, they are guide against left or right deviation.

And... A dado stack... Is the equivalent of few pass of a regular blade, not exactly magic or anything . Just expensive... If you have a router, the dado stack become a clumsy redundancy... Setting it up is much more annoying than switching a router bit.

All good points Coligny.

It implies that I might better invest in some decent routers (which I kind of planned to do anyway).

Then again, if your stock is too narrow for the rail of your track saw, the only option seems to be a table saw.

[Coligny]

Then again, if your stock is too narrow for the rail of your track saw, the only option seems to be a table saw.

Bandsaw with a proper fence...

Now, it's not an absolute science. Go with what you are comfortable with. But if you start from scratch and don't have that much time for growing skills. The tablesaw is big and easily become dangerous. Tracksaw and circular saws, like bandsaws while not being childproof require much more bad luck to trigger a lethal accident.

[Grumpy Gramps]

Interesting: I find the table saw to be a really versatile tool and would always buy it before a mitre saw (but after a circular saw). Mine is a Hitachi and if someone came and stole it from me tonight, I would gladly take the insurance money and buy something else, probably bigger

Maybe my description of the little gremlins of the Hitachi helps you to evaluate yours a little better than I was able to (couldn't find a single shop in Nagoya to see table saws live so had to order online. The Hitachi won a jan-ken-pon against a Makita, wonder if that would have been a better choice ).

My rip-fence is never reliably parallel to the blade, I always have to measure the distamce at the front and back of the blade, or else...

The insert that came with the saw was not level and there is no way to adjust it properly, so I had to glue some little strips of credit card to it to make it square and stop the saw from trying to shoot me dead (see your video).

The splitter (no riving knife) is so fiddly that it's clearly not meant to be used. I am running the saw naked atm, but plan to make my own inserts and then either buy these or make something like it. So no big deal.

The mitre slots have these little "tabs" in front and back to prevent the mitre gauge from falling off if you turn the saw upside down, or for some other odd reason known only to Hitachi. A PITA if you want to make runners for a cross cut sled or jigs. You can cut them off with a Dremel easily, but that might render the warranty void, I don't know.

The saw has a 1 inch arbor, which limits you to rather expensive blades. The dado stack that you can order with the saw comes in on about 3 man yen IIRC. The cheapo blades from the home center will likely not fit.

All of this is not drastic and the saw works well after some fiddling and smoothing out the rough spots.

That Bosch looks sexy, though

[Coligny]

Yes forgot aboot table saw sleds, it's an awesome design, but geared more toward repeatability/number production than hobby use, and those plus table saw, we srart looking at massive shop space used...


Those microjig stuff are damn sexy... Been drooling un the push blcks for some times now...

[Yokohammer]

Table saw ... *sigh* ... a dream for me I'm afraid, at least until I can rebuild the shop to about three times its current size.

I'll make do with my circular saw and mitre saw for the time being. But since there's no pressing need to slice up multiple large panels at the moment, that'll do. It's just that it's time consuming as frack to have to carefully set up each circular saw cut with clamped-on guides, etc. Gets the job done, just slowly.

Russel: what is it that you're going to "seriously need"* a table saw for?

* This expression is highly suspect. I have used it myself on numerous occasions, when what I actually meant was "want."

Edited to add: Take a look at the Steel City table saws that are available here. This company makes some nice looking stuff that gets generally decent reviews, but you might need a 200V supply. I'd go the 200V route if I was going to do a more serious shop upgrade that included a table saw. A bit on the expensive side (like around 150K), but this is a piece of gear I wouldn't want to scrimp on.

[Yokohammer]

On the other hand ... the Bosch 4100 really does look like a nicely sorted little machine.

Looks like the units are mm or inch, depending on where the machine is sold. This one has a digital distance gauge!

Unfortunately, looks like availability is limited in japan.

[Russell]

Back to investigating the StaxTools 655 ”MEMPHIS” table saw, I found the following two blogs in Japanese:

Guy introducing his StaxTools table saw to the world. He mentions that it took him some time to set up the table saw and adjust it. He also shows his previous table saw of StaxTools, which he stopped using because the motor broke down. This is exactly one of the complaints I have read about the US-counterpart of this saw, which is the Ridgid R4510 Table Saw. Not very encouraging, methinks.

Guy describing the process of adjusting this saw, and discussion with other guy. Turns out this saw is a pain in the ass to adjust so that the blade is parallel to the fence. The issues he encounters in adjusting are exactly the ones I also read for the US model. There is another guy commenting on this blog, basically saying that he has the same issues. They also seem to agree that the quality is poor. Not very encouraging again.

So, nope, not gonna buy this one.

[Russell]

Russel: what is it that you're going to "seriously need" a table saw for?

OK, I have had a long time to think this over. Thanks for the question. It gave me a lot to think about, and a man has never become dumber through reflection.

I conclude that the only thing I would need a table saw for would be for cutting narrow stock, like less that 10 cm wide. This is pretty hard to do with a hand circle saw. Panels of plywood would also be convenient by table saw, but it can be done with a hand circle saw too, albeit not as fast.

So, I will wait and see until I really need one, and then hope the Bosch is on the market in Japan...

[Yokohammer]

Back to investigating the StaxTools 655 ”MEMPHIS” table saw, I found the following two blogs in Japanese:

Guy introducing his StaxTools table saw to the world. He mentions that it took him some time to set up the table saw and adjust it. He also shows his previous table saw of StaxTools, which he stopped using because the motor broke down. This is exactly one of the complaints I have read about the US-counterpart of this saw, which is the Ridgid R4510 Table Saw. Not very encouraging, methinks.

Guy describing the process of adjusting this saw, and discussion with other guy. Turns out this saw is a pain in the ass to adjust so that the blade is parallel to the fence. The issues he encounters in adjusting are exactly the ones I also read for the US model. There is another guy commenting on this blog, basically saying that he has the same issues. They also seem to agree that the quality is poor. Not very encouraging again.

So, nope, not gonna buy this one.

I had been keeping an eye on those Stax Tools (I didn't realise they were the same as Ridgid ... not that it matters), because they are relatively inexpensive and have a few items that are not widely available from the major local manufacturers. I was specifically looking for a dust collector, but ended up passing on the Stax because it just looked too cheaply built. So this sort of confirms my suspicions and I will treat them with even greater suspicion in future.

[Yokohammer]

Russel: what is it that you're going to "seriously need" a table saw for?

OK, I have had a long time to think this over. Thanks for the question. It gave me a lot to think about, and a man has never become dumber through reflection.

I conclude that the only thing I would need a table saw for would be for cutting narrow stock, like less that 10 cm wide. This is pretty hard to do with a hand circle saw. Panels of plywood would also be convenient by table saw, but it can be done with a hand circle saw too, albeit not as fast.

So, I will wait and see until I really need one, and then hope the Bosch is on the market in Japan...

I assume you mean ripping (lengthwise) 10cm wide stock. If you mean crosscutting then your mitre saw is ideal. The reason I manage to do without a table saw without too much anguish is that my mitre saw will handle widths up to about 310mm. The occasions I do need to cut wider panels are frankly a pain, but infrequent enough that setting up cuts with the circular saw is acceptable.

[Russell]

I assume you mean ripping (lengthwise) 10cm wide stock. If you mean crosscutting then your mitre saw is ideal. The reason I manage to do without a table saw without too much anguish is that my mitre saw will handle widths up to about 310mm. The occasions I do need to cut wider panels are frankly a pain, but infrequent enough that setting up cuts with the circular saw is acceptable.

Yes, I mean lengthwise.

And sleeping one night over it, I concluded that one solution suggested to me by the Missus is probably the best for the time being: ordering stock to size directly at a wood supplier. Her old man (who unfortunately passed away long ago) also used to do that.

There is one case where this will not work out: cutting stock lengthwise at an angle. I will need to do that to make a hipped roof for my shed. But then again, it may be fine to use a bandsaw for that. Still satisfied with your Ryobi?

[Yokohammer]

Still satisfied with your Ryobi?

For what I'm doing at the moment, yes. However, I'm starting to see a future need for greater height (a 10" or maybe even 14" bandsaw).

But if your main purpose is ripping long stock then you probably need something more accurate. Bandsaws tend to drift a bit if you're trying to make dead straight cuts with a fence, simply because the blade twists so easily. So for ripping you need to install a wide blade and keep things carefully adjusted. I'm not confident that the Ryobi would be ideal for that. It's more for cutting circular blanks and odd shapes by eye for my purposes.

Just FTR, here's a supposedly "drift free" 14" bandsaw:

http://www.off.co.jp/index.php?id=4&c=76&b1=&s=11001793

Not cheap, but not expensive for what it is.

They also have an inexpensive 10" model that is currently on "Xmas Special":

http://www.off.co.jp/index.php?id=4&c=76&b1=&s=11001688

[Russell]

Still satisfied with your Ryobi?

For what I'm doing at the moment, yes. However, I'm starting to see a future need for greater height (a 10" or maybe even 14" bandsaw).

But if your main purpose is ripping long stock then you probably need something more accurate. Bandsaws tend to drift a bit if you're trying to make dead straight cuts with a fence, simply because the blade twists so easily. So for ripping you need to install a wide blade and keep things carefully adjusted. I'm not confident that the Ryobi would be ideal for that. It's more for cutting circular blanks and odd shapes by eye for my purposes.

OK, that looks like less of an option then. It is probably not as bad as a jigsaw, even a high quality one.

Just FTR, here's a supposedly "drift free" 14" bandsaw:

http://www.off.co.jp/index.php?id=4&c=76&b1=&s=11001793

Not cheap, but not expensive for what it is.

They also have an inexpensive 10" model that is currently on "Xmas Special":

http://www.off.co.jp/index.php?id=4&c=76&b1=&s=11001688

Hmm, that "drift-free" 14" bandsaw is about the same price as the Bosch table saw when imported from the US...

But frack, it looks like I may just want to use the edge guide on my hand circular saw to cut narrow stock lengthwise. The narrowest width it can handle is 80 mm, which is fine for my purpose.

[Grumpy Gramps]

You can always make some "sawboards" for ripping with your circular saw. I have made a few from MDF, they work very well. As you "lean" the blade against the board, you also get less runout/wabble of the blade which makes the cut pretty accurate. You need more time to prepare a good cut than with a table saw, but imho in the end you should come out with a similar quality.

[Salty]

I have four power saws – table, circular, sabre, and radial arm – and while I do use all four, since I have them available, a combination of the radial arm and the circular saw can generally replace the table saw. My table saw is old and hard to adjust so whenever possible I will use the radial arm saw. One more consideration on the table saw… they are quite easy to abuse and use unsafely, while the others are generally much safer.

[Russell]

You can always make some "sawboards" for ripping with your circular saw. I have made a few from MDF, they work very well. As you "lean" the blade against the board, you also get less runout/wabble of the blade which makes the cut pretty accurate. You need more time to prepare a good cut than with a table saw, but imho in the end you should come out with a similar quality.

A sawboard (sometimes also called a saw jig) is very convenient for setting up a cut in my experience.

However, in my case, I may not follow that route, because (1) the cut will be at a non-standard angle, which will make my saw jig useless for cuts at other angles, and/or (2) the stock to be cut is narrower than the saw jig itself, which makes the whole setup a bit awkward.

[Yokohammer]

However, in my case, I may not follow that route, because (1) the cut will be at a non-standard angle, which will make my saw jig useless for cuts at other angles, and/or (2) the stock to be cut is narrower than the saw jig itself, which makes the whole setup a bit awkward.

How many of these angled cuts do you have to make?

If it's more than four, say, and they need to be accurate, I wouldn't hesitate to spend the time to make up a jig just for that.

[Russell]

However, in my case, I may not follow that route, because (1) the cut will be at a non-standard angle, which will make my saw jig useless for cuts at other angles, and/or (2) the stock to be cut is narrower than the saw jig itself, which makes the whole setup a bit awkward.

How many of these angled cuts do you have to make?

If it's more than four, say, and they need to be accurate, I wouldn't hesitate to spend the time to make up a jig just for that.

I will need eight of them.

OK, OK, I will probably end up making a jig for that if the roof rafter is not too shallow.

[Yokohammer]

I will need eight of them.

OK, OK, I will probably end up making a jig for that if the roof rafter is not too shallow.

You'll be glad you did.
The job will go so much faster and easier (assuming you don't screw up the jig).

[Russell]

Some shitty no name stuff from kahma. Got a bulky blade cover but not anti backslash knife... So i'm barebacking it...

Track saws plunge, unlike circular saws. Like for router with plunge base, thats quite a bit of a difference. Also, unlike this simple guide, they are guide against left or right deviation.

And... A dado stack... Is the equivalent of few pass of a regular blade, not exactly magic or anything . Just expensive... If you have a router, the dado stack become a clumsy redundancy... Setting it up is much more annoying than switching a router bit.

Coligny, your posting suddenly started to make so much sense that I decided not to buy a table saw, and just ordered a Makita RP-2301FC plunge router.

[Yokohammer]

Coligny, your posting suddenly started to make so much sense that I decided not to buy a table saw, and just ordered a Makita RP-2301FC plunge router.

Three points:

1. Don't you hate it when Coligny makes sense?

2. Nice router (me jealous).

3. Why the fark isn't this stuff in the Tinkering thread?

[Wage Slave]

Help! I'm not sure I get it. So, to make those long angled rips in long stock Russell has realized a good plunge router with a simple jig/guide is an easier way and very accurate with it?

There's really a lot I really don't understand about routers. Must buy one soon and start learning.

[Yokohammer]

Help! I'm not sure I get it. So, to make those long angled rips in long stock Russell has realized a good plunge router with a simple jig/guide is an easier way and very accurate with it?

There's really a lot I really don't understand about routers. Must buy one soon and start learning.

I don't think that's it. I think Russell just wanted a nice router (perfectly understandable).

My understanding is that he's going to make a jig and use his circular saw for the angled cuts.

[Wage Slave]

I don't think that's it. I think Russell just wanted a nice router (perfectly understandable).

My understanding is that he's going to make a jig and use his circular saw for the angled cuts.

Yep - perfectly understandable. Thanks.

[Russell]

Hammer, this stuff could indeed be in the Tinkering thread, but somehow it made sense to me to make it a separate thread, so that I would be able to find it back easily. OK, I know there is a search function, but sometimes I like to keep things systematic.

On a related note, I wonder what I should do with bigger projects I am planning. These will typically take extended time (months to years), so each may deserve its own thread to give them some continuity. "Tinkering", OTOH, seems to imply small projects.

What will these bigger projects be? Well, I have in mind the following:

1. Making an attic on the third floor of my house (yep, didn't start that one yet, due to discouragement from the Missus and lack of time),
2. Making a trellis for roses in my garden,
3. Making an arbour for grapes in my garden,
4. Making a construction of poles, postbox and name plate, and move my current interphone to it,
5. Making a shed (10 square meter) in my garden,
6. Making 20 m of fence to hide an ugly wall,
7. Developing a system to harvest rain water, and store it for later use in my garden (preferably automated),
8. All kinds of home improvement projects.

Fortunately, I have the full (mental) support for the garden projects from the Missus, so it is relatively easy to buy tools for that purpose...

[Russell]

Help! I'm not sure I get it. So, to make those long angled rips in long stock Russell has realized a good plunge router with a simple jig/guide is an easier way and very accurate with it?

There's really a lot I really don't understand about routers. Must buy one soon and start learning.

I don't think that's it. I think Russell just wanted a nice router (perfectly understandable).

My understanding is that he's going to make a jig and use his circular saw for the angled cuts.

Yep, that's it.

And I want to make grooves in poles to support some lattices for a fence and a trellis. And then there is a need for mortises and tenons to make frameworks from those poles. The grooves can be done by a table saw with dado blade, but also by a router, as Coligny pointed out. And a router is also good for those wood joints.