12 dead in Paris shooting

[Russell]

Confusion as French hunt magazine attack gunman

After a long day of rapidly changing information, U.S. counterterrorism officials said Wednesday night that they cannot be certain of the status of the three suspects in the Paris attack on Charlie Hebdo magazine. Information from French sources has been contradictory, they said.

Earlier Wednesday, two senior U.S. counterterrorism officials told NBC News that one of the suspects in the attack had been killed and that two others were in custody. However, the officials later said the information that was the basis of that account could not be confirmed.

Hmm, if the suspect who gave himself up suddenly turns up dead, that would confirm what I said in an earlier post. Suspicious, suspicious...

Authorities earlier identified the three men as Said Kouachi, 34, and Cherif Kouachi, 32, French nationals who are brothers, and Hamyd Mourad, 18. Late Wednesday, French police released photos of the brothers and asked for public help in finding them, and French authorities said the youngest of the three suspects had surrendered to police.

An official who spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to publicly discuss the investigation told The Associated Press that the men were linked to a Yemeni terrorist network. Cherif Kouachi was convicted in 2008 of terrorism charges for helping funnel fighters to Iraq's insurgency and sentenced to 18 months in prison.

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[Samurai_Jerk]

While fundamentalist Christian preachers in the South certain spew some hateful rhetoric and Buddhist monks in Myanmar seem to be leading the genocidal charge against Rohingya Muslims there's no denying that as far as religion goes Muslims are the biggest problem in the world right now. I don't care who the problem was in the past and I don't buy the argument that they just need more time to mature. Yes, their beefs aren't just about religion and no it's not all Muslims but pretending "their fundamentalists are just like ours" or "it's really about politics and not religion" is a dangerous level or political correctness that's getting us nowhere.

[kagemusha]

I also wonder where kagemusha stands on the many youtube videos you can find of the stereotypical Southern US preacherman giving a fire and brimstone speech about the coming Rapture. The act of self promotion is not necessarily a sign of respect or importance, if it ever is.

What I personally think is not important (just for the record, I am an atheist with a grudge especially against the three monotheistic religions) what important is the reality.
Yes, there are extremists in every society and culture, this goes without saying, the real indicator is how those extremists are being regarded by the general public.
Unlike the nutcases from the Bible Belt - the mainstream media and the public in the Arab/Muslim world accept barbaric and violence ideas in the most tolerant way compare to any civilization today.
People sitting in main broadcasters studios and talking about killing/raping/beheading/enslaving Jews/Christians/other Muslims while the hosts smile and nod.
Children are forced to sing songs of hate and war from a young age as part of the official education program.
Yes, some do it out of fear, some do it because they don't know better but the truth is it doesn't matter regarding the end product - blind violence and destruction (mostly self)

From the point of view of a liberal person this mentality is beyond comprehending, there must be some explanation, some reason for such actions. Some embrace conspiracy theories, some turn to accuse themselves, we try to find a reasonable, intelligent and logical explanation to something which is based on none of the three.
The sad fact is that Islam, the most political religion ever, is standing where Christianity stood 500 years ago - one faction is pulling for modernity and the other to conserve the religious power and influence. Unlike the Renaissance, almost every Islamic ruler today benefits from the ignorance and the oppression of his people and the only way to keep them this way is to keep feeding them with the violence and hateful spread by religion.
I suggest anyone to read the book 'Infidel' to understand what Europe is going to face in the coming years.

[J.A.F.O]

Good point.

It apparently requires a religion to be at least 2000 years old before its followers develop enough sense to become more peaceful.

IIRC the Catholic Holy Inquisition only changed it's name to the "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith"

[Wage Slave]

What's your point? You want to show me there are sane, liberal Muslims? Of course there are and let's not make it a straw man discussion.

How is challenging and refuting this:

Actually major Islamic leaders in Australia, Europe and the Middle East say openly they are in war with Europe and call their people to attack the infidels.

A straw man argument? You made the above statement. You stated that major Islamic leaders Australia, Europe and the Middle East say openly they are in war with Europe and call their people to attack the infidels. Since you included no qualification it is reasonable to assume you were talking in general and across the board. I showed you two of the most important Islamic leaders in Europe who said the exact opposite. You replied with a selection of You Tube links to things said by people who may or may not be very important. I suspect they are mostly fairly unimportant, unrepresentative and extreme Islamic leaders. You might be able to prove me wrong though.

It would be easy to find you tube links of Jewish and Christian leaders saying pretty extreme and disgusting things about what needs to be done to Muslims. I see people like Benjamin Netanyahu and his slick spokespeople saying some pretty disgusting things in studios with people nodding and smiling. I venture fundamentalist Christians enjoy the same.

Anyway, the original argument then stated (To be perfectly clear so as to pre-empt the all purpose Straw Man argument defence - I can see you are one of those.)

In short, wake up and smell the (Arabian) coffee, in the next decade Europe is going to bath in blood of mostly innocent Christians and Muslims.

It's bathe, isn't it? But anyway, I don't believe you. I think you are hatemongering and scaremongering without any proper evidence. Yes, there are serious concerns about some Muslim groups as there are about some Christian groups as there are about some Jewish groups. And yes, some muslims for one reason or another are a serious threat to our way of life at the moment. That doesn't justify what you said. No creation of a straw man needed.

[kagemusha]

Wage Slave, I'm a little baffled by your response

1. The straw man argument I was referring to was your assumption I don't think there are responsible Muslim leaders. I said that some of the major leaders incite violence against Europe. You came up with the the 2 guys calling for understanding. So logically speaking, your 2 guys don't refute my claim, and to avoid a useless straw man argument I stated I don't deny the existence of moderate liberal Muslims. I hope you understand now.

2. What you suspect (with all due respect) in not of my concern. In 30 seconds search I provided you with videos containing names, you have the net at your disposal to educate yourself regarding the status of those people. I don't mind the discussion I do mind a low brow attitude when someone doesn't make the effort to learn the fact but find the time to baselessly label his counterpart with derogatory terms.
I bet you didn't even take a look at the clips or you wouldn't have come up with the unclever comparison to "Jewish and Christian leaders saying pretty extreme and disgusting things about what needs to be done to Muslims".
I don't support the Israeli PM and the sooner he goes the better it is for the Middle East but I challenge you to come up with one quote of his similar to the message appears in the clips I posted.
I give you the Imam of Syria (equivalent to the Archbishop of England) and you say that Christian leaders say the same things. Right, there are hate groups everywhere but if you don't see the different between a nutcase militia leader in Virginia and the way the mainstream media treats him to the most prominent Muslim leaders spitting calls for murder on prime time all I can say is - good luck with that.

You don't have to believe me, I don't sell god or faith, I just show you sad difficult facts to digest, you can call me names and go back to play with your LEGO kit, that's your choice.

[Wage Slave]

You don't have to believe me, I don't sell god or faith, I just show you sad difficult facts to digest, you can call me names and go back to play with your LEGO kit, that's your choice.

Boring .......Game over.

[kagemusha]

Boring .......Game over.

Yeah, you lost...
Next time try something more suitable to your intellectual ability.

[Wage Slave]

Boring .......Game over.

Yeah, you lost...
Next time try something more suitable to your intellectual ability.

Pot/Kettle/Black. Simple.

[kagemusha]

Boring .......Game over.

Yeah, you lost...
Next time try something more suitable to your intellectual ability.

Pot/Kettle/Black. Simple.

Call me when you grow up and have anything substantial to say

[kurogane]

.........there's no denying that as far as religion goes Muslims are the biggest problem in the world right now. I don't care who the problem was in the past and I don't buy the argument that they just need more time to mature. .

I agree, and there are some strong words coming, so do gird your loins, but the main problem with that argument about patience and the maturation process is that it is historically unilinear cultural universalism. There, I said it. And no apologies for any offense taken by anyone on these here Interwebz. The whole argument about maturity is a fundamentally flawed sophomoric imposition of developmental commensurance that isn't just wrong but actually counterproductive. As you noted, it's not because they are in some purported medieval period that they are disproportionately murderous, it's because they have decided that they have been fucked around long enough, and sadly, they have a certain point about that.

BTW, I am perfectly happy to treat a Mohammedan as a fellow homo sapiens sapiens as long as I don't have to give a flying fuck about their silly beliefs and practices, but lots of them as people are rather nice, and many play a nice attacking style of soccer and have good ball and game skills. But demanding there be no pork or pictorial depictions of a long dead Paedo-bear? Just who is being the heathen?

Anyways, a terrible tragedy.

PS edited for the better good, but damnnnnnnnnn that felt good

[Samurai_Jerk]

.........there's no denying that as far as religion goes Muslims are the biggest problem in the world right now. I don't care who the problem was in the past and I don't buy the argument that they just need more time to mature. .

I agree, and there are some strong words coming, so do gird your loins, but the main problem with that argument about patience and the maturation process is that it is historically unilinear cultural universalism. There, I said it. And no apologies for any offense taken by anyone on these here Interwebz. The whole argument about maturity is a fundamentally flawed sophomoric imposition of developmental commensurance that isn't just wrong but actually counterproductive. As you noted, it's not because they are in their medieval period that they are disproportionately subhuman filth, it's because they have decided that they have been fucked around long enough, and sadly, they have a certain point about that. If they actually mattered as a group they might deserve sympathy.

BTW, I am perfectly happy to treat a Mohammedan as a fellow homo sapiens sapiens as long as I don't have to give a flying fuck about their retarded beliefs and practices but I reserve the right to giggle at their spiritual, social and cultural troglodyticity, and that's in comparison to all the other religious F'wits around, not just we the better. But lots of them as people are rather nice, and many play a nice attacking style of soccer and have good ball and game skills. But no pork or pictorial depictions of a long dead Paedo-bear? WTF do these unwashed heathens think they are talking to, their own wailing bearded women????

It would be kind of cool if a few people just start shooting Muslims because they're evil parasitic heathens, but anybody loopy enough to do that would probably shoot the good ones and for the wrong reasons.

Anyways, a terrible tragedy.

Right, it's not like they exist in a vacuum with no exposure to the rest of the world. They know that there's something superior out there but choose to ignore it and act like medieval assholes. If they were just fighting to get the West to mind it's own business and stop propping up dictators in exchange for access to oil, that would be one thing. But these guys want to establish a Caliphate that is more backwards and fundamentalist than the original one. I could almost forgive the Taliban and the like who are from truly ignorant isolated tribal societies. However, there's no excuse for British, French, Saudi, etc. Muslims to behave like this. They should (and do) know better.

[kurogane]

Yup.

BTW, we also need to proportion some blame to the charity class multicultural mavens and their hand wringing condescension and presumption of cultural inferiority. If you tell a goofy youth it's okay to behave like an Ahole, many will consider it.

I edited out the nastier bits of my original post out of self-censorship, so maybe just pull my quote from yours? The point made still makes sense, me thinks.

[Wage Slave]

No you should leave it. It follows perfectly from the rest of it.

Not so long ago at all, Londoners and others endured a vicious terrorism campaign that targetted innocent civilians and lasted about 30 years. It took over 3,500 lives - many innocent and many in horrific circumstances. All the same sort of things were being said very loudly, by some people, about Irish people as a whole, the innate evil of Catholicism and the putative fact Catholic priests were preaching in support of the violence. Were they right? And did they contribute anything to finally bringing the bloodshed to a halt, or did they prolong and intensify it? That's not a dewy eyed view of the world - that's taking a cold hard look at what happened.

[wangta]

While fundamentalist Christian preachers in the South certain spew some hateful rhetoric and Buddhist monks in Myanmar seem to be leading the genocidal charge against Rohingya Muslims there's no denying that as far as religion goes Muslims are the biggest problem in the world right now. I don't care who the problem was in the past and I don't buy the argument that they just need more time to mature. Yes, their beefs aren't just about religion and no it's not all Muslims but pretending "their fundamentalists are just like ours" or "it's really about politics and not religion" is a dangerous level or political correctness that's getting us nowhere.

Well written SJ.

In a nutshell - the issue is one of certain Muslim fundamentalists who adhere to a religious ideology that openly advocates assaulting, injuring and murdering others for 'crimes' such as blasphemy which have long gone from practitioners of say Roman Catholicism in Spain which burned heretics when it wasn't imprisoning them for life until around the end of the 18th century I believe.

Protestant countries also engaged in judicially murdering those who did not adhere to their view of the world and religion's important place in it. Different branches of Christianity are not the only religions that did this and the Inquisition in other European countries did far less than that of the Spanish.

However, certain branches of Islamic fundamentalists engage in those kind of practices today - Saud Arabia is the most obvious and evil example of that. It is a revolting theocracy that executes more people than ISIS or ISIL or whatever it's being called now. There was a disgusting photograph that was not doctored of Obama kneeling to some Saudi Arabian prince or cleric. No American President should be abasing himself like that and no democratic leader should be appearing to endorse that theocracy.

Obama has attacked Putin and Russia as homophobic because Russia limits sex education re homosexuality in school and won't allow gay couples to adopt Russian kids no matter where the couples live, he and his supporters seem to suddenly develop a massive case of perception and memory loss when it comes to brutal murders by stoning and throwing over cliffs of gay people. This hypocrisy on the part of the broad left and western leaders is a big part of the whole problem for western countries' populations in dealing with the Islamic fundamentalists who have been allowed to live in countries they clearly are unsuited to.

Clearly sitting on large oil reserves means you can promote a vile form of religious fanaticism and export it to western countries judging by the Wahabist mosques funded by Saudi Arabia that have been built in western countries including the UK and USA for around a decade now.

It is refreshing to see that the left wing in France are mostly on the side of free speech and the right to satirise everything including religion regardless of what religion it is. In Australia the left wing are usually flunkies of political correctness and ready to blame whites and traditional western culture and refuse to face the fact that Muslims in Australia and other western countries have to accept our secular culture including mocking beliefs especially those that do belong in centuries past.

This is especially true as Muslims are not part of the initial movement of non Indigenous peoples into Australia. The society established from the late 18th century in Australia was British and that eventually led to women being among the first in the world to get the vote, strong trade unions, Christianity including liberal versions of it even in the 19th century, the strong growth of the labour movement, and working class people owning homes and later cars while in most of the world ordinary people didn't even have their own bathrooms at home. There was a small minority of Afghan camel drivers who came in the 19th century - interestingly a few of them committed a terrorist attack on a train in the name of the Ottoman Empire. Most Australians have never heard of that.

A few years back when an anti Muslim movie came out which was nothing to do with Australians, fundamentalist Muslims rioted in Sydney. Among the lovely placards held up was one by a kid whose mother handed it to him. It read 'Behead those who insult/oppose (one of the two) Islam'. There is no difference between this view and the attitude of the fanatics who murdered those people in Paris.

I have no doubt there are Muslims everywhere in western countries and not necessarily the absolute fanatics who believe the dead people deserved it because of their offensive cartoons and their studied opposition to Islam - as well as other religions and political groups etc. But as one of the artists said when he was alive:"We follow French law. We are French. We do not follow the law of Kabul or Riyadh."

To me and many that is the issue. Muslims do not have the right to tell non Muslim people and countries that they cannot satirise, mock and attack by humour their religion. They choose to enforce laws that were practised 400 years or so in western countries in Muslim countries now but they need to to be told very firmly that yes, this is a case where if they don't like other cultural norms and want to change them then they need to go to a country that has such laws.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Female policewoman killed in second Paris gun attack

WTF? Shit is hitting the fan in Paris.

[Wage Slave]

Lots happening.

An explosion rocked a restaurant near a mosque in the French village of Villefranche-sur-Saone, on the outskirts of Lyon, about 270 miles south of Paris, even as reports emerged of attacks against several mosques around the country.

There is no evidence to link the restaurant blast with the killings at the Paris offices of Charlie Hebdo magazine, which took place Wednesday. However, following the attack that killed 12 people, including 10 journalists and two police offices, in Paris, several mosques were targeted on Thursday, according to French security officials cited by Agence France-Presse. AFP reported on its Twitter account that French Muslim groups are urging imams of local mosques to condemn terrorism during Friday prayers.

http://www.ibtimes.com/charlie-hebdo-killings-explosion-rocks-restaurant-near-lyon-mosque-several-french-1777204

[wangta]

No you should leave it. It follows perfectly from the rest of it.

Not so long ago at all, Londoners and others endured a vicious terrorism campaign that targetted innocent civilians and lasted about 30 years. It took over 3,500 lives - many innocent and many in horrific circumstances. All the same sort of things were being said very loudly, by some people, about Irish people as a whole, the innate evil of Catholicism and the putative fact Catholic priests were preaching in support of the violence. Were they right? And did they contribute anything to finally bringing the bloodshed to a halt, or did they prolong and intensify it? That's not a dewy eyed view of the world - that's taking a cold hard look at what happened.

You are referring to the IRA and 'troubles' issues and the conflicts that arose including the ruling Protestant party's heavy role in contributing by endorsing discrimination against the Catholic population. This saw the British army enter Northern Ireland to protect the original Irish as opposed to the newer English/Scots Irish, and the British Army then became bogged down in an undeclared war in Northern Ireland. This developed into a bombing campaign by the IRA in England.

You are not the first person to suggest that the Irish situation of the recent past and the Muslim situation now are more or less the same. However, I have never heard of any Muslim terrorist group phone in before a bombing to tell authorities that a bomb has been planted or will be planted in a location.

There were IRA bombings where the group responsible did this and gave some time for the place to be cleared if the authorities were willing to act - not all of the time but it did happen. The Irish terrorists also overwhelmingly operated in England, there were no terrorist acts committed by Irish people in the British Commonwealth countries such as Australia, Canada, and New Zealand.

As for bringing religion into it, nowhere did the Roman Catholic Church endorse a holy war view of what the IRA was doing in what was essentially a three way war between the Northern Ireland Protestant establishment, the IRA and the British Army.

The Protestants had their own terrorists and indeed this was one of the reasons the British Army came in - to protect the Catholics who were being beaten, having their houses burned down and even murdered for organising politically against Northern Ireland's particular form of apartheid. One notable Catholic campaigner, a woman, was even murdered in her hospital bed by Protestant gunmen after an operation.

Many Roman Catholic clergy were preaching for human rights, a few were very vocal in calling on the British Army to leave - this had nothing to do with religious doctrine, religious practices, and social-cultural behaviour.

This was a very specific conflict centred in Northern Ireland which had its roots in the division of Ireland some time before. This was not about imposing Catholic beliefs on Protestants in Northern Ireland although the religious divide was in the mix. This was about the revival of the IRA in Ireland generally - those Northern IRA members opportunistically revived the concept of the IRA.

The IRA previously had been on the correct side of history - they refused to accept a treaty some time after WW1 that did not give real independence to any part of Ireland and ended up being the democratic party led by Eammon De Valera that gained power in a genuinely free Republic of Ireland.

There is a big difference between your example of the Roman Catholic Church and the IRA, and Muslim theocracies now encouraging Muslim fundamentalists living in countries that have completely different origins, ethnicities, societies and religious roots to commit terrorist acts when the host cultures do not accept the dictates of Islam, and express themselves in ways that are lawful and acceptable under their own terms.

[kagemusha]

There is a big difference between your example of the Roman Catholic Church and the IRA, and Muslim theocracies now encouraging Muslim fundamentalists living in countries that have completely different origins, ethnicities, societies and religious roots to commit terrorist acts when the host cultures do not accept the dictates of Islam, and express themselves in ways that are lawful and acceptable under their own terms.

Well said

[kurogane]

French Muslim groups are urging imams of local mosques to condemn terrorism during Friday prayers[/b].

Well at least some of them are trying. Their silence and reticence since the shiite really hit the fan has been one of the most potent arrows in the often hysterical but rarely completely irrelevant condemnation of the Mohammedans as a people. Inasmuch as the filthy, unshaven woman hating Paedobears in pyjamas our taxes often pay for think we are below consideration, surely the reasonable and peaceful members of the congregation should have felt the need to address their hateful extremism far sooner than they have done, if only to thank the rest of us for having made places they can learn to be as civilised as so many of them now are.

Yes, I know many of them are truly wonderful and that you know and like many of them. But this isn't about individuals anyways, and as otherwise decent individuals far too many of them have been far too silent for far too long. They need to pay their dues and show us why we shouldn't think of them in terms of those ridiculous characterisations I trotted out above. Not that I am being completely insincere. WTF doesn't eat bacon just because some old dude decided it was weird they don't chew their cud!!????

BTW, the IRA thingy was never a religious war, and I never really tire of hearing that sort of vitriol about the Catholic Church anyways. I get the underlying sentiment, but I don't see that as commensurate, other than in the call for tolerance of others that don't share our labels or tastes. You do know what They call Us, doncha!???? Coming from them that's simply Pythonesque. You seem edging close to a guilty plea for one way relativism, and I refused that a while back. Either they tolerate us the way we tolerate them, or they can FO. And for all the crap thrown around on here, very few Mohammedans need to fear crazed random assassins. Unless they are also Mohammedans.

[Wage Slave]

Wangta, your summary is pretty fair except the advance warning issue was far more contentious. According to the authorities they didn't give sufficient time and also followed a strategy of issuing a huge number of false warnings using recognised code words. When it was real it was hard to separate out from all the false warnings and there wasn't enough time to clear somewhere like Victoria Station in the middle of the morning rush hour before nail bombs sent shrapnel ripping through the crowded concourse.

Anyway, my point was that the facts aside, I can assure you that according to quite a lot of people, the Catholic church was in fact driving, supporting and enabling IRA terrorism, the Irish people were basically violent thugs in the thrall of this and they were almost all guilty of enabling and hiding the terrorists. They also refused to accept that there was any real cause behind the terrorism or that people like the RUC needed fundamental reform.

Sound familiar?

[Samurai_Jerk]

Sound familiar?

Of course there are going to be some similarities and for the sake of argument let's say it's exactly the same thing. So fucking what? The IRA were wrong and so are these Islamic terrorists. Society can't accept this shit and liberals have to stop praying at the alter of political correctness and giving Muslims a pass for all the heinous shit they do just because they're brown, allegedly oppressed, and follow an exotic religion.

[Wage Slave]

Sound familiar?

Of course there are going to be some similarities and for the sake of argument let's say it's exactly the same thing. So fucking what? The IRA were wrong and so are these Islamic terrorists. Society can't accept this shit and liberals have to stop praying at the alter of political correctness and giving Muslims a pass for all the heinous shit they do just because they're brown, allegedly oppressed, and follow an exotic religion.

Extraordinary. Now this really is straw man territory. By all means go for the likes of ISIS with every means at our disposal - Have I ever suggested otherwise? I only counsel that past experience suggests that if you rely soley on indiscriminate brute force against that kind of enemy you either don't win, or will face a very long drawn out conflict before you are finally forced to take account of some of the root causes.

What I am objecting to is the contention that all, or at least an overwhelmingly majority of Muslims are preparing a bloodbath for non muslims on theological grounds. And further, that the only way this can averted, is an all out concerted attack on muslims. That is where we started with this.

[Grumpy Gramps]

As long as the west is smiling at the Israelis, when they commit their horrendous crimes on the Palestinians, why shouldn't we also give the islamists a benevolent smile, when they commit their atrocities on the west? "Yussuf, we are sure that you have thought your plans well through and done what you have done for very good reasons, but may we recommend that you tread a little lighter next time, please".

Double, triple, quadruple standards, mixed with politics and religion, add a liitle racism and xenophobia and the world's overpopulation will soon be a thing of the past, so we should all be for it, or should we?

[kurogane]

Hee Hee. To be fair, what I get here is that WS is arguing that we shouldn't descend to their level or forget what we stand for, which I agree with, not that we should give them big cat lady hugs and tearful apologies.

I still see a dangerous element of one way relativism in his argument, though; that's fine at garden parties with the Anglo-Scottish tennis club set that have never actually met a live Mohammedan, and it's de rigeur to appear urbane in Wankcouver and elsewhere but it doesn't work very well when they're actually throwing bombs at us.

I think I might move back here. The Islamifists I meet in Japan are great people, and the only ones I can imagine feeling sympathy for. I mean, could you imagine trying to live kosher here!????

PS How have we got so far that we feel sympathy for the architects of Munich!!????

[Wage Slave]

As long as the west is smiling at the Israelis, when they commit their horrendous crimes on the Palestinians, why shouldn't we also give the islamists a benevolent smile, when they commit their atrocities on the west? "Yussuf, we are sure that you have thought your plans well through and done what you have done for very good reasons, but may we recommend that you tread a little lighter next time, please".

Double, triple, quadruple standards, mixed with politics and religion, add a liitle racism and xenophobia and the world's overpopulation will soon be a thing of the past, so we should all be for it, or should we?

Not smiling perhaps but this feels about right:

[Samurai_Jerk]

What I am objecting to is the contention that all, or at least an overwhelmingly majority of Muslims are preparing a bloodbath for non muslims on theological grounds.

Speaking of straw men.

[Wage Slave]

What I am objecting to is the contention that all, or at least an overwhelmingly majority of Muslims are preparing a bloodbath for non muslims on theological grounds.

Speaking of straw men.

No, it isn't. The discussion started with these statements:

This pathology of some in the western world to deny reality in hope it will just go away to be somebody else's problem never cease to shock me.

Actually major Islamic leaders in Australia, Europe and the Middle East say openly they are in war with Europe and call their people to attack the infidels. Declaring their affiliation is a big part of the attack.


In short, wake up and smell the (Arabian) coffee, in the next decade Europe is going to bath in blood of mostly innocent Christians and Muslims.

And that is what I am objecting to. For the record before that I also said:

Hope they are caught quickly and given exemplary punishment. Also hope ISIS can be destroyed - one way or another - no holds barred.

[kurogane]

JFTR, it's really fun to wind you up pretending to hate a people most of us probably couldn't give a flying fvck about.

And it's not like they're much use as an identifiable group. I mean, couscous and tabouli????? woopdeedo

[legion]

I'm actually surprised this kind of thing doesn't happen more often. I think it tells us the majority of people are quite decent and tolerant. If not then we would be seeing death rates similar to that in Iraq following the invasion when it seemed every day someone was blowing up a market and killing 37 shoppers.

Nutters with guns, not a lot we can do when high powered weapons find their way into their hands.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/may/12/usa.iraq

The Amnesty study points out that 35 of the world's wealthiest countries are responsible for at least 90% of the world's arms trade.