Death & Taxes

[IparryU]

Anecdote:
When I was starting my own business I had a period where my income was low enough to be able to present tax documents to the municipality rather than the tax authority branch office. As this was a more convenient location, I did this. I also had a small refund owing back to me from gensenchoshu. When this refund did not come to me, I followed it up with the municipality, and they were very apologetic about not having told me that if I wanted to get that refund I had to go to the tax authority.

So it came to pass that I went to the tax authority with the tax data forms printed out by the municipality, rather than my handwritten originals, in July or August, well past the deadline. The officer got it into his head that I was a late presenter, without hearing the back story. I'm not sure if it was a kind of punitive measure on his part, but he presented me with a form to fill out on the spot, of my entry into and out of Japan over the last 10 years, saying "gaijin dakara." Now, I have never claimed that I am not tax resident, so there was no reason for having to fill that out, and you can imagine the pressure to make a declaration of your movements over the last ten years, what with many trips for work and private trips, most I could only guess at dates. It made me pretty sour about going to the tax office again.

And people, people. Stop conflating immigration status with tax status. At the very least there are some sloppy expressions in this thread.

I expect them to be pricks... But it really sucks having to deal with them or anyone like them.

Tax status:
Non tax resident: on biz trip, working for less than one year

Tax resident: <5 years out of 10*, or declare that you reside in Japan with intent to stay more than a year.

Permanent tax resident: >5 years out of 10*, are Japan passport holder, are eijyuken visa status

* revolving 10 years

[wagyl]

Tax status:
Non tax resident: on biz trip, working for less than one year

Tax resident: <5 years out of 10*, or declare that you reside in Japan with intent to stay more than a year.

Permanent tax resident: >5 years out of 10*, are Japan passport holder, are eijyuken visa status

* revolving 10 years

This clarification, while handy, is exactly what I am talking about.

It is easy to think of someone who is not in any of those categories you state: Been in Japan for 6 years, never setting foot outside, but on spouse visa. If what you say is correct, then they have no status. Are you sure that eijuken/PR is a factor?

[Wage Slave]

I'm not sure if it was a kind of punitive measure on his part, but he presented me with a form to fill out on the spot, of my entry into and out of Japan over the last 10 years, saying "gaijin dakara."

The first year they shoved that one at me - now it comes with the pack they send every year. It is a bit annoying because as you say there is no dispute. I'm liable and I know I am. If I were trying to claim that I wasn't then I can see why you want details. The second year, I read it more carefully and actually it doesn't ask for your movements - it asks for the periods that you have maintained a residence in Japan. That's easy, the whole peroid so I just listed the whole of every year except for the year I first came. That prompted a row with my Keiko who insisted that irrespective I should go through all my passports and document every trip out of the country because that was proper. If memory serves I stood my ground on that one and the form was accepted, of course, without a murmur.

[wagyl]

I'm not sure if it was a kind of punitive measure on his part, but he presented me with a form to fill out on the spot, of my entry into and out of Japan over the last 10 years, saying "gaijin dakara."

The first year they shoved that one at me - now it comes with the pack they send every year. It is a bit annoying because as you say there is no dispute. I'm liable and I know I am. If I were trying to claim that I wasn't then I can see why you want details. The second year, I read it more carefully and actually it doesn't ask for your movements - it asks for the periods that you have maintained a residence in Japan. That's easy, the whole peroid so I just listed the whole of every year except for the year I first came. That prompted a row with my Keiko who insisted that irrespective I should go through all my passports and document every trip out of the country because that was proper. If memory serves I stood my ground on that one and the form was accepted, of course, without a murmur.

Ahh, that is interesting. When you say "first year," is that first year after a particular event? I know that it wasn't my first year after PR, and it was definitely not my fifth year in Japan.

[wagyl]

I just opened up my own parcel from my friends at NTA. They no longer include a tax guide for foreigners.

They have a Tax Guide for Aliens now so I will leave that one for my live-in Martian to read.

[IparryU]

Tax status:
Non tax resident: on biz trip, working for less than one year

Tax resident: <5 years out of 10*, or declare that you reside in Japan with intent to stay more than a year.

Permanent tax resident: >5 years out of 10*, are Japan passport holder, are eijyuken visa status

* revolving 10 years

This clarification, while handy, is exactly what I am talking about.

It is easy to think of someone who is not in any of those categories you state: Been in Japan for 6 years, never setting foot outside, but on spouse visa. If what you say is correct, then they have no status. Are you sure that eijuken/PR is a factor?

Ok, but those are the basic guidelines for determining tax status... Example of person that is out of those guidelines?

Been in Japan 6 years despite what visa they have, they are permanent tax resident. How did you deduce they aren't in a category? (could be my typing/reading from phone, sorry if I'm at error)

Yes, PR visa puts you in permanent tax resident status.

[Wage Slave]

I'm not sure if it was a kind of punitive measure on his part, but he presented me with a form to fill out on the spot, of my entry into and out of Japan over the last 10 years, saying "gaijin dakara."

The first year they shoved that one at me - now it comes with the pack they send every year. It is a bit annoying because as you say there is no dispute. I'm liable and I know I am. If I were trying to claim that I wasn't then I can see why you want details. The second year, I read it more carefully and actually it doesn't ask for your movements - it asks for the periods that you have maintained a residence in Japan. That's easy, the whole peroid so I just listed the whole of every year except for the year I first came. That prompted a row with my Keiko who insisted that irrespective I should go through all my passports and document every trip out of the country because that was proper. If memory serves I stood my ground on that one and the form was accepted, of course, without a murmur.

Ahh, that is interesting. When you say "first year," is that first year after a particular event? I know that it wasn't my first year after PR, and it was definitely not my fifth year in Japan.

Sorry, I meant the first year I told them that I was now permanent resident for tax - ie my sixth yearly tax return. I already had PR a few years prior to that. It didn't prompt any changes to my tax affairs. I have never even been asked what my immigration status is - I don't think it is relevant at all.

[wagyl]

Yes, PR visa puts you in permanent tax resident status.

I can wait for a time when you are not typing on the phone, but I am going to have to say "citation needed" on this one.

For a start, how do the tax authorities even know whether you have a PR visa?

[Wage Slave]

Tax status:
Non tax resident: on biz trip, working for less than one year

Tax resident: <5 years out of 10*, or declare that you reside in Japan with intent to stay more than a year.

Permanent tax resident: >5 years out of 10*, are Japan passport holder, are eijyuken visa status

* revolving 10 years

This clarification, while handy, is exactly what I am talking about.

It is easy to think of someone who is not in any of those categories you state: Been in Japan for 6 years, never setting foot outside, but on spouse visa. If what you say is correct, then they have no status. Are you sure that eijuken/PR is a factor?

Ok, but those are the basic guidelines for determining tax status... Example of person that is out of those guidelines?

Been in Japan 6 years despite what visa they have, they are permanent tax resident. How did you deduce they aren't in a category? (could be my typing/reading from phone, sorry if I'm at error)

Yes, PR visa puts you in permanent tax resident status.

Iparry, I don't think that is correct. PR might immediately make you resident for tax but it doesn't necessarily make you permanent resident for tax. The same is true of a Japanese passport - It depends on how many years you have maintained a residence here in the last 10 years and your physical presence. I got PR after about 3 years so I still had two years not permanent resident for tax purposes after getting PR.

[IparryU]

Yes, PR visa puts you in permanent tax resident status.

I can wait for a time when you are not typing on the phone, but I am going to have to say "citation needed" on this one.

For a start, how do the tax authorities even know whether you have a PR visa?

Will do indeed.

How do they know?... Well... Besides a half ass answer about you telling them and what they have on record, you stumped me! I would like to get a solid answer too.

[IparryU]

Yes, PR visa puts you in permanent tax resident status.

I can wait for a time when you are not typing on the phone, but I am going to have to say "citation needed" on this one.

For a start, how do the tax authorities even know whether you have a PR visa?

Will do indeed.

How do they know?... Well... Besides a half ass answer about you telling them and what they have on record, you stumped me! I would like to get a solid answer too.

[wagyl]

Sorry, I meant the first year I told them that I was now Permanent resident for tax - ie my sixth yearly tax return. I already had PR a few years prior to that. It didn't prompt any changes to my tax affairs. I have never even been asked what my immigration status is - I don't think it is relevant at all.

Thanks for the clarification. Maybe I was just lucky that I didn't get to see one of those forms until I was at about year 15.

[IparryU]

Tax status:
Non tax resident: on biz trip, working for less than one year

Tax resident: <5 years out of 10*, or declare that you reside in Japan with intent to stay more than a year.

Permanent tax resident: >5 years out of 10*, are Japan passport holder, are eijyuken visa status

* revolving 10 years

This clarification, while handy, is exactly what I am talking about.

It is easy to think of someone who is not in any of those categories you state: Been in Japan for 6 years, never setting foot outside, but on spouse visa. If what you say is correct, then they have no status. Are you sure that eijuken/PR is a factor?

Ok, but those are the basic guidelines for determining tax status... Example of person that is out of those guidelines?

Been in Japan 6 years despite what visa they have, they are permanent tax resident. How did you deduce they aren't in a category? (could be my typing/reading from phone, sorry if I'm at error)

Yes, PR visa puts you in permanent tax resident status.

Iparry, I don't think that is correct. PR might immediately make you resident for tax but it doesn't necessarily make you permanent resident for tax. The same is true of a Japanese passport - It depends on how many years you have maintained a residence here in the last 10 years and your physical presence. I got PR after about 3 years so I still had two years not permanent resident for tax purposes after getting PR.

I am parroting several tax firms and several presentations of tax firms and I ask these questions during Q&A. I received similar answers for most of what I posted, but at the end of the day, I aint a tax professional. So I really don't want to confuse anyone or act like I stand correct.

So if you (anyone) call bullshit, by all means it should be clarified. Because it may be false information.

I see the point about a J national returning back to Japan after a decade of non residency and how they would transition tax status... Which is pretty valid as I never asked that question nor heard it spoken about. Hell, I never even tried to read the nitty gritty on it.

Regarding you PR situation, how did you get after 3 years?

So for now, the permanent tax resident section is incomplete and needs work.

[Yokohammer]

And that ... all of that ... is why I pay a tax accountant to take care of my income and corporate taxes.

Of course I still have to get all the data together for him (doing that now in fact ... I hate this time of year), but I don't have to deal with the tax office or any related BS directly. Well worth the price of admission, if you ask me.

[IparryU]

And that ... all of that ... is why I pay a tax accountant to take care of my income and corporate taxes.

Of course I still have to get all the data together for him (doing that now in fact ... I hate this time of year), but I don't have to deal with the tax office or any related BS directly. Well worth the price of admission, if you ask me.

I did too, until one skipped off and gave my account to a prick of a colleague, the next guy i didn't get refunds that was said to come, and I got better results by going to the tax office and letting them handle (with long ass lines).

Then I went down the wabbit hole trying to figure this shit out.

[Yokohammer]

And that ... all of that ... is why I pay a tax accountant to take care of my income and corporate taxes.

Of course I still have to get all the data together for him (doing that now in fact ... I hate this time of year), but I don't have to deal with the tax office or any related BS directly. Well worth the price of admission, if you ask me.

I did too, until one skipped off and gave my account to a prick of a colleague, the next guy i didn't get refunds that was said to come, and I got better results by going to the tax office and letting them handle (with long ass lines).

Then I went down the wabbit hole trying to figure this shit out.

I've been with the same guy for close to 30 years. Totally dependable. He's in his mid-60s now and has a growing accounting firm, but he handles all my stuff personally and claims he's "in it for life." (Why is that everyone else gets old while I don't seem to? Mental age? ) Connections like that are priceless.

[wagyl]

Regarding you PR situation, how did you get after 3 years?

My guess is that he married a Japanese national some years prior to arriving in Japan.

[Wage Slave]

Regarding you PR situation, how did you get after 3 years?

Because I had already had a J trouble and strife for 15 years plus, had two kids at school in Japan, owned a house, had a job with the local government and had sufficient funds in the bank to care for myself plus family. The eligibility guidelines for time served in matrimonial bondage don't specify where the time must be served.

Oh - And I pay my taxes.

[Wage Slave]

Regarding you PR situation, how did you get after 3 years?

My guess is that he married a Japanese national some years prior to arriving in Japan.

Ping Pong. Though you have to do a bit more. They weren't interested in love letters but they were interested in brats and financial statements.

[Wage Slave]

And that ... all of that ... is why I pay a tax accountant to take care of my income and corporate taxes.

Of course I still have to get all the data together for him (doing that now in fact ... I hate this time of year), but I don't have to deal with the tax office or any related BS directly. Well worth the price of admission, if you ask me.

I did too, until one skipped off and gave my account to a prick of a colleague, the next guy i didn't get refunds that was said to come, and I got better results by going to the tax office and letting them handle (with long ass lines).

Then I went down the wabbit hole trying to figure this shit out.

I've been with the same guy for close to 30 years. Totally dependable. He's in his mid-60s now and has a growing accounting firm, but he handles all my stuff personally and claims he's "in it for life." (Why is that everyone else gets old while I don't seem to? Mental age? ) Connections like that are priceless.

Yep. Agreed, Priceless. Our affairs simply don't generate enough cash at present to justify the cost and we both persist in a view that you only need to hire lawyers and such for really big things like house purchase or inheritances. Hiring people for things that should be routine smacks of laziness and impedes proper learning and understanding. But I hear you and I'm coming round. Maybe another year or two and we will have grown the business sufficiently ....hope so, sort of ......on the other hand there's that time thing you mentioned in Tinkering.

[inflames]

That was my only focus on all of those silly threads. That the JRA was targetting foreigners to a certain degree I fully agree with; they tend to have foreign accounts and sources of income, and once some are found to be in breach of the law a pattern is established. As Wagyl has noted, that is a specific focus of late and they were doing their job.

I doubt the government is doing, or even specifically targeting foreigners. The first thing to do would be to look at people who have sent more than 1 million yen at one time (as their transfers are automatically reported to the NTA), then see if they have been paying overseas income and go from there. Then, ask transfer agents (banks basically) for info on remittances (they're usually very helpful on providing tax information), and see who has been sending money overseas and not paying taxes. This would all be really easy to do and you can rather easily come up with a list of people to be audited - even if someone hasn't been sending over a million yen at a time someone sending 100,000 yen every month and not reporting any income would easily stand out, especially if this has happened for several years.

One of the reasons why overseas remittances are ridiculously expensive is because the government doesn't want competition - they want to keep the number of players small (to ensure they only have a few places to go to ask for information).

[wangta]

No, no, it's all about 'moral hazard' don't you know? Super Grover wrote that self-righteously after he was caught red-handed in tax evasion. He used that reference to blame the J Tax people, not himself.

And according to Ken44, it's 'safe' to omit key info about his income generating investments back in the USA because the money he remits is 'for his Mum' and it's just under 10,000 grand USA per remittance. I found it a bit strange that they and others did not understand what goes on when countries sign tax and social security agreements.

[kurogane]

I doubt the government is doing, or even specifically targeting foreigners. The first thing to do would be to look at people who have sent more than 1 million yen at one time (as their transfers are automatically reported to the NTA), then see if they have been paying overseas income and go from there.

I think that was the thrust of my crux there, but you put it more clearly. Yes, verily verily. IOW, people that well might fit that bill happen to also be furriners. The idea that the JRA is specifically targetting the 0.0003% of the tax liable population that might be subject to those regulations is, as I said above, a Debito worthy delusion of self-importance. It's mental poison.

Choko,
Claiming all potential deductions is what any small business owner should be doing. I was speaking more of that attitude that questions the very right of governments to tax our incomes generated within the broader infrastructure those taxes help to build and support. And if you don't already do it, you should take a look at the taxes deducted at source. Company accountants tend to take the safer route and overdeduct; many normal salaried employess are able to claim deductions that at least reduce their overall tax bill and gives ya some beers money if nothing else. I got my ex to do it and the JRA was absolutely mortified that a national civil servant would be doing something so legal and proper but Mezoorashee. Balls to them. She got enough for a nice trip to Thailand.

As a general note, I would like to reiterate that I have always found most tax officials to be polite, informative and reasonable. The ward office boys are often in a bit over their head but are happy to consult upstairs (the JRA liason) on complicated matters like my own tax status both while on scholarship and later on the national postdoctoral programme. I also always went in armed to the teeth with 30-50 pages of the downloaded tax code, helpfully highlighting the passages that made my case and purposely skipping or deleting those that did not. If you go at it like it's Corrigedor without heavy naval guns you often get back to Bataan.

Also, FYI, my father was a CA (like a CPA??), so it's all sort of bred in the bone. I agree with Yokohammer's approach. I don't fix my own car, why would I try to do something that complicated?

[matsuki]

Claiming all potential deductions is what any small business owner should be doing. I was speaking more of that attitude that questions the very right of governments to tax our incomes generated within the broader infrastructure those taxes help to build and support.

Ahhhh, in that case, my issue here is that we have no say in how the taxes we pay is spent and there are no guarantees that we'll get the services that those taxes pay for. Basically, you don't need to be a citizen to be taxed but you do need to be a citizen to be guaranteed many of the services those taxes pay for. If they changed that or I naturalized, I'd have no beef.(but as I said above, not going to communicate my beef to them by not paying or some sort of pointless exercise likely to get me locked up)

[kurogane]

Yeah, I can dig that beef. I am still rather unsure just how uniformly the authorities are excluding non-Japanese applicants from social services, but it is certainly a source of concern. Let's remember that that technically Chinese special status woman was refused welfare because she was deemed to have income, not because she was a filthy foreigner. I am also not overly worried by the wingnut Ishihara-oids that followed that 'victory' with a demand for legislation denying social services to non-citizens. They probably won't get it anyways, and it might even motivate intransigent Special PRs to get their paperwork together.

And providing social services to non-citizens is a weird idea anyways, allowing for exceptional cases. This world without borders stuff sounds like a bad Bob Geldof video.

[Wage Slave]

Ahhhh, in that case, my issue here is that we have no say in how the taxes we pay is spent and there are no guarantees that we'll get the services that those taxes pay for. Basically, you don't need to be a citizen to be taxed but you do need to be a citizen to be guaranteed many of the services those taxes pay for.

Choko, although you say that the principle of no taxation without representation is in the American DNA does America actually do anything different to Japan or any other country? I can't say I know the US system well but are you telling me that Hiroshi Tanaka, on a work visa or (equivalent of) spousal visa or PR is exempted from paying a full whack of normal American tax?

As far as access to all benefits and services goes you have a stronger case - Although I wonder if anywhere really guarantees this. Still, things could be a lot better here I'll happily grant. On the other hand, I can't think of a single service or benefit I have been denied. Child benefit is paid in my name, The stimulus gifts are paid in my name, When I left my job I got unemployment benefit and so on.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Ahhhh, in that case, my issue here is that we have no say in how the taxes we pay is spent and there are no guarantees that we'll get the services that those taxes pay for. Basically, you don't need to be a citizen to be taxed but you do need to be a citizen to be guaranteed many of the services those taxes pay for.

Choko, although you say that the principle of no taxation without representation is in the American DNA does America actually do anything different to Japan or any other country? I can't say I know the US system well but are you telling me that Hiroshi Tanaka, on a work visa or (equivalent of) spousal visa or PR is exempted from paying a full whack of normal American tax?

As far as access to all benefits and services goes you have a stronger case - Although I wonder if anywhere really guarantees this. Still, things could be a lot better here I'll happily grant. On the other hand, I can't think of a single service or benefit I have been denied. Child benefit is paid in my name, The stimulus gifts are paid in my name, When I left my job I got unemployment benefit and so on.

The US might be worse because as a PR you have to declare worldwide income even if you're not currently living in the US just like citizens but you still don't get any voting rights.

And the phrase "No taxation without representation" certainly gets drilled into our heads in school (or at least it did when I was a kid) but I doubt your average American could tell you what it means.

[matsuki]

Yeah, I can dig that beef. I am still rather unsure just how uniformly the authorities are excluding non-Japanese applicants from social services, but it is certainly a source of concern. Let's remember that that technically Chinese special status woman was refused welfare because she was deemed to have income, not because she was a filthy foreigner. I am also not overly worried by the wingnut Ishihara-oids that followed that 'victory' with a demand for legislation denying social services to non-citizens. They probably won't get it anyways, and it might even motivate intransigent Special PRs to get their paperwork together.

And providing social services to non-citizens is a weird idea anyways, allowing for exceptional cases. This world without borders stuff sounds like a bad Bob Geldof video.

Definitely...I don't see it as a "we're fucked" issue in practice but just one of those things that gets teeth sucked too much to actually be guaranteed.

Ahhhh, in that case, my issue here is that we have no say in how the taxes we pay is spent and there are no guarantees that we'll get the services that those taxes pay for. Basically, you don't need to be a citizen to be taxed but you do need to be a citizen to be guaranteed many of the services those taxes pay for.

Choko, although you say that the principle of no taxation without representation is in the American DNA does America actually do anything different to Japan or any other country? I can't say I know the US system well but are you telling me that Hiroshi Tanaka, on a work visa or (equivalent of) spousal visa or PR is exempted from paying a full whack of normal American tax?

As far as access to all benefits and services goes you have a stronger case - Although I wonder if anywhere really guarantees this. Still, things could be a lot better here I'll happily grant. On the other hand, I can't think of a single service or benefit I have been denied. Child benefit is paid in my name, The stimulus gifts are paid in my name, When I left my job I got unemployment benefit and so on.

The US might be worse because as a PR you have to declare worldwide income even if you're not currently living in the US just like citizens but you still don't get any voting rights.

And the phrase "No taxation without representation" certainly gets drilled into our heads in school (or at least it did when I was a kid) but I doubt your average American could tell you what it means.

Yeah, SJ's right as far as what they demand and still lacking in local basic voting eligibility***...which sucks, no need to be able to vote for a presidency but local school board and such makes sense.

So basically it's not really different to Japan in procedure....but you also must realize that the US isn't as adverse to immigrants and (depending on the locale) the locals will actually step up to plate for the immigrants. (California now has drivers licenses for even ILLEGAL immigrants) Without going too Debito/Havill, the other major difference being that in the US, as far as the law is concerned, immigrants aren't denied protections and rights because they lack citizenship. (the nuke in legal "because gaijin" bitchslaps) In Japan, you need to naturalize to be guaranteed these protections/rights.

***More than 20 states and territories, including colonies before the Declaration of Independence, admitted foreigners' right to vote for all elections, the last one was Arkansas in 1926. Voting rights at the local level were later granted to non-citizens by a few town governments, either for school boards (New York until the board members were no longer elected in 2002, Chicago) or for municipal councils in small towns in Maryland, Barnesville (already since 1918), Martin's Additions and Somerset (since 1976), Takoma Park (since 1991) and Garrett Park (since 1999), Chevy Chase Section 3 and Chevy Chase Section 5. No foreigner was allowed vote at the national or state level in the US as of 2014.

[Wibble]

Regarding you PR situation, how did you get after 3 years?

Because I had already had a J trouble and strife for 15 years plus, had two kids at school in Japan, owned a house, had a job with the local government and had sufficient funds in the bank to care for myself plus family. The eligibility guidelines for time served in matrimonial bondage don't specify where the time must be served.

Oh - And I pay my taxes.

As I understand it, with 3 years served in a Japanese marriage, you only need to have been in Japan for 1 year plus they want you to be on a 3 year residency status when you apply so that someone else has already done some paperwork on you and decided you're not risky.

Ping Pong. Though you have to do a bit more. They weren't interested in love letters but they were interested in brats and financial statements.

When I got PR, I hadn't yet paid any taxes in Japan nor had kids at that point, but they did need a contributions to Japan statement or something. The bar must have been pretty low for this.

I was also under the impression that PR doesn't turn you into a permanent tax resident.

[Wage Slave]

As I understand it, with 3 years served in a Japanese marriage, you only need to have been in Japan for 1 year plus they want you to be on a 3 year residency status when you apply so that someone else has already done some paperwork on you and decided you're not risky.

That's correct. I didn't realise until my 3 years was up and I looked at it but yes. I could have applied two years earlier after 1 year in Japan with previous time served.