Hashimoto: no sex slaves please, we're Japanese

[Takechanpoo]

i should put it differently

among asian countries, the ones which have institutionalized-by-the government anti-japan sentiments are only China and Korea.

sorry for not explaining enough.

[Russell]

i understand China persistently keeps claiming j-atrocities. they should actually. yea
but....but about kimchese.... they do NOT have the legitimacy to claim anything to japan. japan lawfully colonized them. and they too did the same atrocities as korean japanese at that time like nazi's austrian did. origianlly japan didnt need to apologize to and compensate kimchese nevertheless we did even if it was imcompletely or not. WE DID in spite of no political legitimacy to do it. any other ex-major powers except empire japan have not yet apologized and compensated their ex-colonies because they colonized it lawfully.

So, how does that work in practice, "legal colonization"?

By whose laws was this colonization sanctioned?

[Mock Cockpit]

I've had a bit of a flick through the textbooks my son's have had and I agree with Take, they're pretty dry and if there is any criticism of them then it's just that, a bit like the former New Zealand fast bowler Bob Cunis they are neither one thing nor the other.

[Wage Slave]

How about an adequate amount of content and staging? Omission with selective brevity as well as "oops sorry, out of time" are common criticisms. No-one is suggesting masochism but a sweeping under the carpet of bits of history along with selective and ill supported heated denials of other bits doesn't do anyone any good. Least of all Japan in truth. It's wrecking decades of good intentions, good work and repair.

[Yokohammer]

How about an adequate amount of content and staging? Omission with selective brevity as well as "oops sorry, out of time" are common criticisms. No-one is suggesting masochism but a sweeping under the carpet of bits of history along with selective and ill supported heated denials of other bits doesn't do anyone any good. Least of all Japan in truth. It's wrecking decades of good intentions, good work and repair.

This is a really good summation.

Some prides are going to be hurt if history isn't dealt with openly and honestly, but if it isn't done it simply will not go away as hoped and the issues will remain to plague future generations. All this denial is astonishingly selfish and immature for a supposedly advanced nation, and is hugely damaging to its image and reputation. And the hypocrisy! All the tut-tutting about the past failings of other nations. People just aren't that stupid (well, most of 'em), and just because they're trying to deal with Japan diplomatically doesn't mean they've fallen for the schtick. The real loser is Japan, and the deliberate myopia that keeps it that way is just counterproductive. Absolutely mind boggling.

And it's all about pride, which is probably the most worthless asset on the planet.

[matsuki]

Well said!

[Takechanpoo]

we common sense japanese just try to deny exaggerated part and fabricated part by C and K and to recognize ONLY the part of what truely happened. and its revisionism? i do NOT think so. we japanese never give up and just keep doing what we should do.

well.......generally speaking, it definitely lacks sense of ownership in J-ppl's view about what empire japan did.
the wording is as if one day suddenly a series of huge natural disasters came and passed away.....yea

[matsuki]

just try to deny exaggerated part and fabricated part by C and K and to recognize ONLY the part of what truely happened.

Which is fine if that's all it is...but the "lack of ownership" you mention tends to produce members of the society who take the entrenched "we're victims" stance when they aren't shown that the country was a victim of it's own ambition and aggression. (and failure of procedure/culture if you consider how even the best qualified dudes like Yamamoto were against the decisions that were made)

well.......generally speaking, it definitely lacks sense of ownership in J-ppl's view about what empire japan did.
the wording is as if one day suddenly a series of huge natural disasters came and passed away.....yea

That's actually a great explanation...and in the eyes of brainwashed Worst Koreans and Chinese, gives meat to the "unremorseful Japanese" propaganda.

[Salty]

i should put it differently

among asian countries, the ones which have institutionalized-by-the government anti-japan sentiments are only China and Korea.

sorry for not explaining enough.

But would they institutionalize it if Japan didn`t deny or minimalize?

[matsuki]

i should put it differently

among asian countries, the ones which have institutionalized-by-the government anti-japan sentiments are only China and Korea.

sorry for not explaining enough.

But would they institutionalize it if Japan didn`t deny or minimalize?

Judging by the museums, non-related claims and "history" in those countries, I'd have to go with yes. On the other hand, Japan's handling of the issues is a lesson in PR disasters...and still going. Several years ago I used a friend's 1 page PR sheet as base template to create my 24pg PR novel. I left in some of the stats from his page (they weren't his own) but accidentally left in one of his paragraphs in my final draft. (I intended to rewrite everything but after 24 pages of expansion, you can see how one paragraph might slip by me) Anyhow, dude was furious when he saw my final work with his paragraph and "his stats" in it. Did I argue about the stats being his? Did I make excuses? No, I apologized for my fuck up, explained it wasn't intentional...and then used my connections, time, and a little money to help him out in his endeavors since he had inadvertently helped me with mine. After it was all said and done, he literally sent me a message saying how much he appreciated how I handled the situation. (and I am not known to him or anyone involved as a malicious asshole)

Imagine how things would be if there was something more than dry statements in those history books...some reflection on the tragedies that occurred and hope that the same mistakes would never happen again...hell, what if there were monuments erected in Japan, paying tribute to the victims of Nanjing and the annexation of Korea? (I'm surprised no Koreans have tried to erect their own yet) I mean shit, this is a country where showing appreciation or regret is an art in it's own.

[wangta]

i should put it differently

among asian countries, the ones which have institutionalized-by-the government anti-japan sentiments are only China and Korea.

sorry for not explaining enough.

But would they institutionalize it if Japan didn`t deny or minimalize?

Judging by the museums, non-related claims and "history" in those countries, I'd have to go with yes. On the other hand, Japan's handling of the issues is a lesson in PR disasters...and still going.

Imagine how things would be if there was something more than dry statements in those history books...some reflection on the tragedies that occurred and hope that the same mistakes would never happen again...hell, what if there were monuments erected in Japan, paying tribute to the victims of Nanjing and the annexation of Korea? (I'm surprised no Koreans have tried to erect their own yet) I mean shit, this is a country where showing appreciation or regret is an art in it's own.

Good points there Choko.

I witnessed for more than 3 yrs in Korea the irrationality of the Korean populace. This includes the way in which the Korean military has ignored its own sordid history in collaboration in the real sense with the Japanese authorities in everything including telling young Korean females and their families that it was their duty to go to 'work' for the great Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere's good in the brothels patronised by the Japanese occupiers, their favoured Korean collaborators and the Korean underlings.

The Korean left wing has always hated like poison the right wing Korean military government that sprang up after the Japanese occupation ended with the conclusion of World War 2. Fair enough especially as those later South Korean politicians put to good use the surveillance, torture and other nice means of authoritarian rule that they learned in the special military schools for eager Korean collaborators under Japanese occupation.

Yet as is usual in Korea, they and many others will not follow the logical steps from this that lead to acknowledging the 'comfort women' were betrayed by other Koreans, and abused by Koreans as well as Japanese. Apparently the Japanese occupation excuses Koreans from taking responsibility for ill-treating each other and murdering each other.

This habitual thinking in Korean society also holds them back from publicly examining the massacres of Koreans by each other in the civil wars in different regions of Korea that is today known simply as the Korean War that occurred when the Communist North crossed into the South. It means the society doesn't want to look at what happened on Jeju Island in the south back in that time when pro Japanese Koreans massacred other Koreans there, married the victims' female family members and so inherited their lands. To this day the same murderous families' descendants run the place.

There is a statue of a young 'comfort woman' placed by Koreans near the Japanese Embassy. It was not meant to commemorate them so much as be a political provocation and it worked. Whether it changed Japan's thinking on the issue is fairly obvious - it didn't. While in one way I think good on the Koreans for doing that as a visible reminder, I know that one of the defining characteristics of Korean culture is the mentality of 'more, more, more'. When concessions are made (and this is observable in daily life in many ways small as well as big) the cultural tendency is to keep pushing the boundaries and asking for or demanding more.

I pointed out during class discussions with really nice and intelligent Koreans that the Japanese don't want to get into compensation matters as the Treaty of San Francisco was supposed to cover that and a very big sum of money was given to the then South Korean dictatorship. This money built postwar South Korea essentially and there was already a hell of a lot of infrastructure that had been built under Japanese occupation as well as Japanese companies and financial holdings in South Korea that had been claimed and seized by the South Korean government.

My students' reacton was 'Yes, we know Korea got the compensation and the infrastructure and the Japanese property but they must pay more.' By Korean definitions the more could be never ending. I think Japan needs to genuinely move towards closure on this whole issue but I doubt that monetary compensation and legal recognition would be enough in the eyes of Koreans. The govt and people would find something new as their focal point such as other grievances under Japanese colonisation.

And it seems I was the only person who found that South Korean veterans of the Vietnam War dressed in uniform protesting the comfort women issue outside the J Embassy presented a contrary sight given their grim history in the Vietnam War, not only of enjoying forced sexual labour from Vietnamese females but being famous for slipping into villages, cutting the throats of all the Vietnamese there regardless of age or gender, and then moving on to the next civilian targets. I didn't say it like that to my students but even my hint that in the Vietnam War as in all wars, the natives were forced into brothels went unnoticed.

[Takechanpoo]

i should put it differently

among asian countries, the ones which have institutionalized-by-the government anti-japan sentiments are only China and Korea.

sorry for not explaining enough.

But would they institutionalize it if Japan didn`t deny or minimalize?

your a fan of k-pop?

[Salty]

i should put it differently

among asian countries, the ones which have institutionalized-by-the government anti-japan sentiments are only China and Korea.

sorry for not explaining enough.

But would they institutionalize it if Japan didn`t deny or minimalize?

your a fan of k-pop?

Not sure if there was some hidden meaning there - but, no, I am not a fan of k-pop (not even sure what that is... but guessing).

[matsuki]

Good points there Choko.

The boss said he checked his kids history books and in his opinion, they were about the same, dry, dissociated listing of events as described above...but then he mentioned that there are 「日本可哀想」 remembrance days (Tokyo bombing, Hiroshima bombing) which get alot of press and people talking....but it's taboo to talk about anything bad that Japan did or why. In his view, this "unbalanced" way of "reflecting" is where the victimization complex comes about.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Japan crown prince warns on 'correct' history

Japan's crown prince has warned of the need to remember World War II "correctly", in a rare foray into an ideological debate as nationalist politicians seek to downplay the country's historic crimes.

In an unusual intervention in the discussion, Naruhito's mild-mannered broadside was being interpreted in some circles as a rebuke to Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, a key figure in the right-wing drive to minimise the institutionalised system of wartime sex slavery.

"Today when memories of war are set to fade, I reckon it is important to look back our past with modesty and pass down correctly the miserable experience and the historic path Japan took from the generation who know the war to the generation who don't," Naruhito said.

[Yokohammer]

Japan crown prince warns on 'correct' history

Japan's crown prince has warned of the need to remember World War II "correctly", in a rare foray into an ideological debate as nationalist politicians seek to downplay the country's historic crimes.

In an unusual intervention in the discussion, Naruhito's mild-mannered broadside was being interpreted in some circles as a rebuke to Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, a key figure in the right-wing drive to minimise the institutionalised system of wartime sex slavery.

"Today when memories of war are set to fade, I reckon it is important to look back our past with modesty and pass down correctly the miserable experience and the historic path Japan took from the generation who know the war to the generation who don't," Naruhito said.

I saw this earlier and immediately assumed that by "correct," he meant "correct as I see it." But after thinking about it for a minute I realised that it could be interpreted either way. The right wingnuts could just as easily take it to mean he's supporting their version of "correct," and no doubt they will.

[matsuki]

Leave it to the top 'o yamato to say so much without really saying a thing.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Japan crown prince warns on 'correct' history

Japan's crown prince has warned of the need to remember World War II "correctly", in a rare foray into an ideological debate as nationalist politicians seek to downplay the country's historic crimes.

In an unusual intervention in the discussion, Naruhito's mild-mannered broadside was being interpreted in some circles as a rebuke to Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, a key figure in the right-wing drive to minimise the institutionalised system of wartime sex slavery.

"Today when memories of war are set to fade, I reckon it is important to look back our past with modesty and pass down correctly the miserable experience and the historic path Japan took from the generation who know the war to the generation who don't," Naruhito said.

I saw this earlier and immediately assumed that by "correct," he meant "correct as I see it." But after thinking about it for a minute I realised that it could be interpreted either way. The right wingnuts could just as easily take it to mean he's supporting their version of "correct," and no doubt they will.

Yeah, I thought it was a pretty 曖昧な statement that could be interpreted either way which is exactly what I would expect.

[matsuki]

Not like there is any way to get a clarification from his holiness...

[Takechanpoo]

so as i said many times, why the fuk can denying and correcting exaggerated part and fabricated part be regarded as "downplay"?
imperial japan actually was one of unprecedented heinous criminals in human history. but any heinous criminals have a right to recognize what they actually did and deny what didnt. why you "liberal" gaijin dudes dont understand such a easy thing? eh? mental retarded? no. you guys just follow the safe side.
actually if i were not japanese, i would be on the safe side, too. coz its not worth to sacrifice their social, political or economic interests, if you are not one of japs. so i understand why you gaijin pussies are on the safe side to some extent. yeah.

[wagyl]

Leave it to the top 'o yamato to say so much without really saying a thing.

That is the job of the monachy.

Who the fuck translated it so that a member of the Imperial family says "I reckon".....???

[matsuki]

Leave it to the top 'o yamato to say so much without really saying a thing.

That is the job of the monachy.

Who the fuck translated it so that a member of the Imperial family says "I reckon".....???

Yeeeeeeeha y'all!

[Samurai_Jerk]

Leave it to the top 'o yamato to say so much without really saying a thing.

That is the job of the monachy.

Who the fuck translated it so that a member of the Imperial family says "I reckon".....???

Yeeeeeeeha y'all!

[Russell]

U.S. author recounts ‘lecture’ he got about ‘comfort women’ from uninvited Japanese guests

The debate on Japan’s history of wartime sexual slavery (aka the “comfort women” issue) has heated up again, with the Japanese government extending its efforts to revise school textbooks to overseas.

In November, McGraw-Hill, publisher of the world history textbook “Traditions and Encounters: A Global Perspective on the Past, Vol. 2,” by history professors Herbert Ziegler and Jerry Bentley, was contacted by Japan’s Consulate General in New York. The request: that two paragraphs (i.e., the entire entry) on the comfort women be deleted.

On Jan. 15, McGraw-Hill representatives met with Japanese diplomats and refused the request, stating that the scholars had properly established the historical facts. Later that month, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe directly targeted the textbook in a parliamentary session, stating that he was “shocked” to learn that his government had “failed to correct the things it should have.”

In the March issue of the American Historical Association’s newsmagazine “Perspectives on History,” 20 prominent historians, including professor Ziegler, signed a letter to the editor titled “Standing with the historians of Japan.” They stated that they “agree with Herbert Ziegler that no government should have the right to censor history,” and “oppose the efforts of states or special interests to pressure publishers or historians to alter the results of their research for political purposes.”

Professor Ziegler met with Debito on Feb. 17.

Debito: What has McGraw-Hill been asked to revise?

Herbert Ziegler: The original offense was the comfort women, and I think they essentially wanted me to leave it out or change it. I got a lot of references and emails about recent scholarship by Japanese scholars that pointed out how incorrect my writing is.

It was the comfort women, the Nanjing Massacre, and one other small thing that nobody else has talked about but the Consul (for Political Affairs) in Honolulu: In the first volume of the textbook, there is a map that shows the Sea of Japan labeled as such, but in one instance, in parentheses, it says “East Sea.” And I got lectured on how incorrect that is when the consul came to my office. I didn’t know it was there because the first volume my co-author wrote, not me. I didn’t even know it was a controversial subject.

Debito: Have you been personally contacted by the Abe government?

HZ: I was contacted by the local Consul for Political Affairs in Honolulu in November, wanting to discuss my textbook. I thought it was the oddest thing I’ve ever heard. “Discuss my textbook?” I said I wasn’t interested. He gave me times that I could visit the consulate, and he kept persisting. So I told them I talked to my publisher about this, and they said to forward the consulate’s concerns to their public relations department. So I got another email (from the consul) saying, “Well, New York is New York, Honolulu is Honolulu, and I need to see you in person.” I didn’t reply right away.

Next thing I know, I’m sitting in my office just like you and I are sitting here today — the door’s open, I have office hours. I was eating lunch. In pops the consul and an interpreter. They literally pulled up chairs and sat down. And then they started talking to me about my fallacies and problems, and why they wanted me to change things. I said, a bit spitefully, “It’s a little late now, the sixth edition just came out and it is unchanged, because I wasn’t aware that I had to change any of it.” And then we got into this discussion and I said, “Now look” — and here’s the thing I always want to get across — “It’s a textbook.”

A successful textbook gets revised every two to three years. One reason for revision is that interpretations change, and the facts may change. The publisher hires maybe a dozen specialists to go over this text, and they write critiques and reviews. When I look at them, I have to decide whether or not their critiques are justifiable, or out of nowhere, and so forth. And then, my co-author and I revise our text, as necessary, especially in regards to recent literature on the subject matter.

So I’m not opposed to revising anything, and if there were 300,000 victims of the Nanjing Massacre instead of the 400,000 I wrote, I will change it to 300,000. But very quickly I try to establish that my issue here had to do with the government. I said, “I don’t care if it’s a domestic or foreign government telling me what to write and what not to write.” And I told them I found that very offensive. It’s a violation of my freedom of speech and of academic freedom. It’s not like a few scholars had contacted me and said, “I read this book and I think there are a few inaccuracies.”

Did you know that in the 15 years this book has been out, not one reviewer hired by the publisher to ferret out mistakes has ever questioned anything about the comfort women? I’d never had a single Japanese scholar contact me, nor any Japanese newspaper, for 15 years. It is only now, all of a sudden. I’m not naive; I’m aware that this is the Abe’s government’s big campaign to do what I would consider revision of Japanese history.

I’m not a specialist in East Asian history. I teach world history, meaning I know very little about many things. I’m largely a scholar of German history. Germans had to deal with their past, especially during World War II. It wasn’t easy, it took time, but by and large the Germans have acknowledged and come to terms with the ugly parts of their past. The Japanese never have.

I suspect that young people in Japan grow up without knowing half the time what went on in the Second World War. That’s just a guess; I do not know. And maybe in Japan, and I do not know this either, the government has control over textbooks in schools. Not in America. Mine is not the only textbook, so people are free to pick and buy whatever they want.

So to me it came down to this interference of a foreign government: Even if I were 90 percent wrong about what I wrote, I would not revise it just because the consul of the Japanese Consulate tells me to — it’s ridiculous.

Debito: Did they listen to what you had to say?

HZ: No. Total lecture mode. Everything I wrote was just totally wrong. It became obvious to me what was going on. It didn’t matter what argument I might have made to convince them otherwise. It was a one-sided conversation.

You see, if you would have walked in and introduced yourself as a scholar of modern Japanese history, and you had taken offense at things that I am propagating, we’d sit down and talk about it. That’s not how it was. It was a guy in a suit accompanied by a woman telling me I’m wrong, wrong. “Retract it. Revise it.”

More

I can't believe that these people related to the Japanese government do not understand that their actions put a blemish on Japan's reputation.

[Coligny]

Time to stock up on gunz and'ammo before Abebama try to take our freedomz...

[Takechanpoo]

so as i said many times, j-side just is trying to correct the exaggerated part and the fabricated part by C and K. why the fuk is it regard as revisionism? eh?

that history book comp guy just judged J-sides opinions on the ground of superficial impression, not what they said itself. what an inferior fellow.

the evaluation criteria of C and K side and their followers is always superficial impression and social reputation, NOT logic and evidence.
and their tactic is impression management by medias and political pressure.

img_0.jpg

on the other hand, j-side and their supporters(not followers) has been insisting purely by scientific way on the basis of logic and evidences.

so the best way to put j-side into silence is disprove them purely by logic and evidences. originally it must of necessity be so.
but C and K side and their followers never ever have done it as you do know.
all they need is a rebuttal not crying loudly.

[Wage Slave]

But all the "research " and "evidence" you have presented has been worthless. It mostly hasn't even been relevant and you haven't produced anything to support the voluntary employees story. Of course you can't, because like all criminals, the people who did it were careful to destroy the evidence.

And the real Japanese historians don't agree with you, do they? The only people trying to argue this are ideologically driven right wingers who have taken it into their heads that this can and must be denied whatever the cost to Japan's reputation. For some unknown reason they have decided to acknowledge this wrong is to be forever referred to as the descendants of mass rapists. Not that anyone else has said that. And not that it would make any sense to stigmatise anyone so.

[Coligny]

For the braziliun time... Feels like creationism...

The cuckoo don't prove anything but ask for rigorous disproval of their bullshit...

Burden of proof... How does it work... It's a miracle...

[Takechanpoo]

your posts apparently show never have read and verified J-side arguments directly. your dudes informations for making a dicision are at most only english medias articles and wikipedia and superficial impressions as always and pretend to know all about this issues as always. you gaijin dudes never try to read japanese researchers articles written by japanese in spite of the fact you guys live in japan and even think not worth to read. this is the reason educated natives in this country do not like you gaijins in the bottom of their hearts. j-side have been inspecting far more in great detail UNLIKE C and K side and you gaijin pretenders.

the biggest obstacles for j-side is still their english skill.
j-side will need to translate j-sides claims systematically and comprehensively and create brochures for you arrogant gaijin dudes.

[kurogane]

That would be BS even if you were really Japanese. The problem is You Japanese ( ) that can only deploy that childish quibbling can only see the toothpicks not the trees, and all your sophistic niggling shows is how intellectual and emotional immaturity are not just tolerated more than in the more rational West, but also how easily the more infantile Oriental Male Mind falls prey to the temptation of simplistic bombast.

But I give you full credit for your characterisation of a particular Japanese mindset that is all too common, especially among those whose educational credentials might make you think otherwise. I know a number of well trained and highly respected scholars that parrot almost perfectly that angry spoiled diaper boy rebuttal style you've polished on here.