Afraid of turning Japanese?

[Samurai_Jerk]

I noticed something interesting among my Anglophone friends in Tokyo. The guys I know who are most fluent in Japanese are some of the least likely to have Japanese friends or hang out at Japanese bars and restaurants. And if you do get them into an izakaya they order fries, karaage, and pizza. I don't think it's a general trend but I'm starting to theorize that some people who become truly fluent in the language subconsciously do everything else they can to not otherwise go native. Maybe I need to go to grad school and look into this more deeply.

[havill]

Much like living in Japan for a decade does not mean you're fluent in Japanese (though you would think otherwise from looking at their resume), Japanese skill does not indicate level of assimilation or integration.

For many people that choose to not assimilate, Japanese is simply a tool to aid in the "consumption" (food, sights, sounds, experiences) of Japanese things. Becoming very good at the Japanese language -- being very good at "consuming" Japanese experiences -- does not mean the person wants to integrate.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Whether they're fluent in Japanese or not what's interesting about a lot of the guys who do spend most of their time in an FG bubble is they also claim to love being in Japan.

[havill]

Whether they're fluent in Japanese or not what's interesting about a lot of the guys who do spend most of their time in an FG bubble is they also claim to love being in Japan.

Of course. You can love being in Japan while at the same time maintaining a "experience consumption only" mode with respect to it.

[Yokohammer]

Whether they're fluent in Japanese or not what's interesting about a lot of the guys who do spend most of their time in an FG bubble is they also claim to love being in Japan.

I think that's probably because it's so much easier to love Japan when you're in an FG bubble, as superficial as that love might be. Less commitment, things Japanese always seem fresh ... sorta like being a permanent tourist. Non-stop fun.

To dive into the deep end and live "like a native" with limited access to the usual FG R&R functions requires a little more dedication and commitment. Not as much fun, but it definitely provides a deeper cultural perspective.

[Coligny]

Or maybe having their fluent in japingo card give them the freedum to say fuck you to some japashit they can't stand... Starting with izakaya pork vomit served as food...
The same way some people can't be called racist when they shoot niggers in their hood because their dog is black.

It's almost like if not everyone had the same tastes... Crazy huh...

[Takechanpoo]

i sometimes encounter a white gaijin woman in a supermarket which i often use.
shes probably at age 50-60s, not so tall(middle 160cm), having messy hair with no make-up and empty eyes, wearing frayed and faded clothes and riding a mamachari like an average j-baba. i have no idea where shes from....north america, west europe, east europe, latin america...
its a bare figure of integrated gaijin?

[Samurai_Jerk]

I'm not talking about just differences in taste. I'm talking about something deeper that's hard to describe unless you know them that extends to everything they do.

I think for some people there's also the bliss of ignorance that goes away once they actually understand what's being said. Meetings at work were definitely a lot more interesting when I couldn't understand anyone.

[Russell]

Liking non-Japanese food does not necessarily make one non-integrated, methinks...

[matsuki]

the bliss of ignorance that goes away once they actually understand what's being said. Meetings at work were definitely a lot more interesting when I couldn't understand anyone.

The whole gaijin bubble might be kept alive longer if you can't speak the language but there's also the loss of motivation to try to do everything "raikkajapaneeezu" when you start coming across things you're very familiar with...and can't bring yourself to write off some outdated shit as "cultural differences." (insulation, safety measures, margarine, etc.) That being said, you put it best when you said the good still outweighs that bad.

[Grumpy Gramps]

Maybe after enough years here, you just stop trying to integrate further for lack of any practical use. If, in a restaurant, the waiter asks gaijin me, if I'd like a fork, I'd probably say "yes". Not because I don't know how to use chop sticks, I just think that a fork works better for me and I don't feel that I have to prove anything to anyone.

[Russell]

Maybe after enough years here, you just stop trying to integrate further for lack of any practical use. If, in a restaurant, the waiter asks gaijin me, if I'd like a fork, I'd probably say "yes". Not because I don't know how to use chop sticks, I just think that a fork works better for me and I don't feel that I have to prove anything to anyone.

There you could have hit on the core of the matter.

Totally agreed!

[wuchan]

I noticed something interesting among my Anglophone friends in Tokyo. The guys I know who are most fluent in Japanese are some of the least likely to have Japanese friends or hang out at Japanese bars and restaurants. And if you do get them into an izakaya they order fries, karaage, and pizza. I don't think it's a general trend but I'm starting to theorize that some people who become truly fluent in the language subconsciously do everything else they can to not otherwise go native. Maybe I need to go to grad school and look into this more deeply.

I know quite a few. From my experience, they enjoy gaijin therapy. Many of them have to speak da j-go at work and at home. Going out with the boys is a chance to be the real them. Look closely and you will see that they are not 100% comfortable with the outsiders but like the feeling of belonging.... and pizza without mayo.

[havill]

Hmm. Samurai_Jerk makes a good point. This board is a lot like ordering fries, karaage, and pizza at the izakaya and hanging out only with English speakers.

Never thought of it that way. Now I know what I have to do.

Bye!

[kurogane]

Great OP, interesting musings, but I think Russell and Grumpy Gramps have pointed out a serious contradiction in your initial premise: it seems to conflate a specific objective ability with broader subjective personal tastes and proclivities. This is also, btw, a major annoyance for me amongst yuppie/hipster Love Japan foodies and anime dorks. It's the unconcious assumption that ability in one social category necessarily translates to passion and interest in more subjective and idiosyncratic cultural spheres. It's an Oprahfication of a much more complex issue. I don't do Karate because it looks like it hurts and most white people that do are kinda goofy, and I usually don't order pizza or fries at an Izakaya because they're shit, but I also won't order Yu-dofu or Hiyayakko because if I'm at a bar I want food, not pudding soup that sloshes in my gut. Japanese food is perfectly good, healthy grub but unless it's Tonkatus or Yakiniku it's monotonous and often blase in texture and taste. Non-Japanese (okay, Westerners) that claim to like or even prefer any of the mushier fare are either really, really lucky or they are unwitted lemmings deluded by the blinkers of their provincial cosmopolitan pretence; they might well writhe in sanctimonious ecstasy when they learn I don't like most Japanese food but I know the Jpn word for taint so I can tell them to lick me there without them having a clue.

Having said that, I do catch myself maneuvering myself out of being treated or regarded as being More Japanese than the Japanese, so you might be onto something. Also, just to redo an old schtick: if you are visibly non-Japanese you don't assimilate, though you might well integrate. Assimilation requires a largely implicit or unconcious social acceptance that doesn't exist in Japan beyond a personal level with people with whom one is intimate. I seem to remember Havill using the terms interchangeably in the past, but that might be part of his broader Turning Japanese program, or just a sketchy use of English. Or (The Horror) an unconscious projection from his own assimilationist society upbringing.

[Yokohammer]

Hmm. Samurai_Jerk makes a good point. This board is a lot like ordering fries, karaage, and pizza at the izakaya and hanging out only with English speakers.

Never thought of it that way. Now I know what I have to do.

Bye!

Well that was a bit dismissive.

An izakaya this is not. A deli/diner maybe, but not an izakaya.

[Russell]

Hmm. Samurai_Jerk makes a good point. This board is a lot like ordering fries, karaage, and pizza at the izakaya and hanging out only with English speakers.

Never thought of it that way. Now I know what I have to do.

Bye!

This suggests that you visited this board to the exclusion of social interactions with Japanese people.

That is not what the majority of the people here do.

And in the end it is what one feels comfortable with. Personally I am beyond the point that I have to prove myself one way or the other. Rather, I prefer to enjoy my life. That includes interactions with Japanese, like colleagues, family, and people living in the neighborhood.

But it also includes visiting English-language forums, and sometimes interacting with non-Japanese, of which there are plenty around in my working environment.

[Samurai_Jerk]

I was going to add more qualifications to my original post to address the things you guys have brought up but I decided to keep it short. I just used food as an easy throwaway example and I'm not talking about the guys whose lives are 90% Japanese and use an occasional night out with the boys to escape that.

[matsuki]

Are the people you're referring to mostly married or single?

[Yokohammer]

I was going to add more qualifications to my original post to address the things you guys have brought up but I decided to keep it short. I just used food as an easy throwaway example and I'm not talking about the guys whose lives are 90% Japanese and use an occasional night out with the boys to escape that.

I just re-read your original post ... this one ...

I noticed something interesting among my Anglophone friends in Tokyo. The guys I know who are most fluent in Japanese are some of the least likely to have Japanese friends or hang out at Japanese bars and restaurants. And if you do get them into an izakaya they order fries, karaage, and pizza. I don't think it's a general trend but I'm starting to theorize that some people who become truly fluent in the language subconsciously do everything else they can to not otherwise go native. Maybe I need to go to grad school and look into this more deeply.

... and yes, I see what you mean (re: the underlined bit). Perhaps that is because guys who become very fluent gain more insight into the way the country and its collective conscience actually work, and realize that a full and satisfying assimilation would not only be almost impossible, because that requires complete acceptance on both side as Russell noted, but that making a full transition would be disadvantageous as well. Economically, socially, etc. I don't see anything wrong with that either.

BTW, looks like Havill has even deleted his avatar ... weird.

[Coligny]

BTW, looks like Havill has even deleted his avatar ... weird.

Actually...

Not at all...

[matsuki]

Perhaps that is because guys who become very fluent gain more insight into the way the country and its collective conscience actually work, and realize that a full and satisfying assimilation would not only be almost impossible, because that requires complete acceptance on both side as Russell noted, but that making a full transition would be disadvantageous as well. Economically, socially, etc. I don't see anything wrong with that either.

Pretty good way of putting it. Many of the FG I know who work for larger companies have said the same "I enjoy working/living in Japan but I'm sure I would enjoy it a lot less if I was Japanese."

[Salty]

I`d be interested in knowing what it is that FGers think `being Japanese` means and by extension what there is to be afraid of. I certainly see a very few legal differences – different passport, no ARC, voting, but few other differences. IMO there is as much variation in views, tastes in food, etc. – within Japanese, as there is in the foreign community. So is it a personal feeling of possibly not fitting in, or maybe a self-consciousness over looking different, or an expectation that they might lose some special position or privilege, or exactly what?

[yanpa]

Is there some kind of official chart detailing the relationship between types of food consumed in an izakaya and fear of "turning Japanese" or "going native" or whatever that means?

[Samurai_Jerk]

Perhaps that is because guys who become very fluent gain more insight into the way the country and its collective conscience actually work, and realize that a full and satisfying assimilation would not only be almost impossible, because that requires complete acceptance on both side as Russell noted, but that making a full transition would be disadvantageous as well. Economically, socially, etc. I don't see anything wrong with that either.

Pretty good way of putting it. Many of the FG I know who work for larger companies have said the same "I enjoy working/living in Japan but I'm sure I would enjoy it a lot less if I was Japanese."

I've often thought that and I agree that Yokohammer summed it up pretty well. I wasn't trying to say it was negative or positive for the record. It's just an observation. The guys I'm talking about are all single.

Anyway, I thought havill was kidding but maybe not.

[Yokohammer]

I`d be interested in knowing what it is that FGers think `being Japanese` means and by extension what there is to be afraid of. I certainly see a very few legal differences – different passport, no ARC, voting, but few other differences. IMO there is as much variation in views, tastes in food, etc. – within Japanese, as there is in the foreign community. So is it a personal feeling of possibly not fitting in, or maybe a self-consciousness over looking different, or an expectation that they might lose some special position or privilege, or exactly what?

Good question.

You don't have to look too hard or far to see that being a minority, especially one that looks different, comes with a mixed bag of problems and privileges anywhere in the world. The legal differences may disappear once you legally become Japanese, but the social ones do not. And even if you're not actually thinking about going "full native" and naturalizing, how you see the balance between those problems and privileges is a primary consideration when deciding whether to fully join the flock or flit around the periphery. That perception is going to be very personal. Self consciousness might come into it ... I mean, you've got to be comfortable in your own skin, right? ... but no matter how indifferent you might be to your own appearance others will not be, and you will be treated differently because of it (note that I did not specify "better" or "worse").

A foreign-looking foreigner in Japan is a minority. No legal process can change that, and it's something that people are naturally going to consider. If "turning Japanese" is your best option, then there's absolutely nothing wrong with going with it. It's a darn good country. But if you just happen to come from another darn good country and don't have any reason that you absolutely can't go home, then chances are that you're going to choose to maintain your guest status while keeping a toe or two in the door that leads back to where you came from.

[dimwit]

Is there some kind of official chart detailing the relationship between types of food consumed in an izakaya and fear of "turning Japanese" or "going native" or whatever that means?

All I know is that if you start eating dried squid, you might as well go out and buy a pair of getas.

[Mike Oxlong]

Most of the long-term veterans I would term fluent can slip in and out of the Japanese and ex-pat worlds relatively smoothly. I don't view it as a binary situation.

[yanpa]

Is there some kind of official chart detailing the relationship between types of food consumed in an izakaya and fear of "turning Japanese" or "going native" or whatever that means?

All I know is that if you start eating dried squid, you might as well go out and buy a pair of getas.

I lolled. But seriously, most of the time I end up in an izakaya situation, food tends to get selected for its beer-absorbing properties, unless the specific reason for going there is to eat a certain type of food.

[Samurai_Jerk]

I`d be interested in knowing what it is that FGers think `being Japanese` means and by extension what there is to be afraid of. I certainly see a very few legal differences – different passport, no ARC, voting, but few other differences. IMO there is as much variation in views, tastes in food, etc. – within Japanese, as there is in the foreign community. So is it a personal feeling of possibly not fitting in, or maybe a self-consciousness over looking different, or an expectation that they might lose some special position or privilege, or exactly what?

For me it's mostly about how many meaningful relationships you have with Japanese people and how comfortable you are overall with living in Japanese society. If all my NJ friends and colleagues left Japan tomorrow, there are certainly people I would miss. However, it wouldn't be the end of my social life and I wouldn't feel all alone abandoned in a foreign land. Some people think I make an effort to fit in and avoid the gaijin bubble but it's actually the opposite. I'm essentially lazy when it comes to my private time so I prefer to hang out close to home and avoid public transportation as much as possible. I have friend who like to spend their summer weekends hiking, rafting, or going to the beach. I regularly get invited but almost never go. Not because I don't like those things but because I don't like spending hours getting there and back. If it was a 15 minute cab ride, I'd probably go.

I also found that those phases of my life when I did spend more time in the bubble ended up depressing me because almost every fucking conversation turned into one about how much Japan sucks or how stupid the Japanese are. I've got enough of my own issues. I don't need to hear about everyone else's trials and tribulations.