My Number

[Salty]

First they came after the food and clothing, and once everyone was lured in they added alcohol and tobacco (for healthy consumption), followed by books, newspapers and then memberships (for government approved thinking and relationships). Finally they passed a law making presentation of the card mandatory for all purchases. But before then they got Microsoft and the NSA involved, and even China`s Ministry of Thought and Behavior Control to ensure that only right thoughts preceded the right purchases.

[matsuki]

Is this a weird effort to stomp out under the table (tax free) payments? Credit cards are soo much easier...

[Wage Slave]

Is this a weird effort to stomp out under the table (tax free) payments? Credit cards are soo much easier...

About 90% of my spending is either via Direct Debit or Credit card as it is. Marry that up with the data held on various payment handling systems and that means that private companies already have the data and are trading it as they see fit. Should the Government or police want it I am sure they could get it.

Salty, the horse has well and truly already bolted on this one. Look elsewhere to protect your right to buy, consume and think what you please.

[Salty]

Is this a weird effort to stomp out under the table (tax free) payments? Credit cards are soo much easier...

About 90% of my spending is either via Direct Debit or Credit card as it is. Marry that up with the data held on various payment handling systems and that means that private companies already have the data and are trading it as they see fit. Should the Government or police want it I am sure they could get it.

Salty, the horse has well and truly already bolted on this one. Look elsewhere to protect your right to buy, consume and think what you please.

Not so. The card companies (MasterCard, Visa, JCB, Amex) do not have item level details - not even purchase category (food, clothing, alcohol) unless the merchant is a specialty store that deals only in that product line (inferred from the merchant category code). The only ones who have the detail is the merchant itself, as it must to manage inventory - but even then it doesn`t do/need it by customer, except for those few who do targeted marketing (more internet merchant than brick and mortar).

[Wage Slave]

The point is all the data already exists and it would be very easy to put it all together. And no doubt is put together for criminal investigations and such. As well as marketing and promotion. And is no doubt traded. But that's all fine because private companies can be trusted.

You don't even know that the My Number database will store individual items purchased, and it seems unlikely to me, yet you feel it is the thin end of a wedge that could easily end in totalitarianism. Because it's the Government. If it were a supermarket loyalty card that would be fine. Because it's a company.

I repeat - the horse has already bolted. Enforcing and protecting your rights relies on the apparatus of and laws created by ..........Government.

[Grumpy Gramps]

I don't like that. Though maybe they just want to see, who does not present their numbercard, so they know, who truly has something to hide and can put them on nofly-. terrorist-suspect-, potential-bicycle-thief- and other lists.

[wagyl]

Before everybody goes further, note that this tangent began

Did I just hear an LDP news item correctly?

and confirm the content before expanding conjecture on conjecture.

I am aware of a minor cash transfer to low income tax payers this year, same as there was last year, to sweeten the consumption tax increase, and that was not and is not linked to purchases at all. It is offered to people who have paid income tax below a certain amount, and they take that offer to their municipal government to apply for the payment to be made to a designated bank account. Is that what this is talking about? Or is it something else?

[Salty]

Before everybody goes further, note that this tangent began

Did I just hear an LDP news item correctly?

and confirm the content before expanding conjecture on conjecture.

I am aware of a minor cash transfer to low income tax payers this year, same as there was last year, to sweeten the consumption tax increase, and that was not and is not linked to purchases at all. It is offered to people who have paid income tax below a certain amount, and they take that offer to their municipal government to apply for the payment to be made to a designated bank account. Is that what this is talking about? Or is it something else?

Something else. On the news today, much as I surmised/understood initially. Maybe does not include clothes... excludes alcohol. Probably news writeups tomorrow.

To add - the government is going to provde/subsidise the my number terninals to be attached to POS devices, at a cost of yen10,000 each. Lots of potential for fraud in this....

[Salty]

... You don't even know that the My Number database will store individual items purchased, and it seems unlikely to me, yet you feel it is the thin end of a wedge that could easily end in totalitarianism. Because it's the Government. If it were a supermarket loyalty card that would be fine. Because it's a company.

I repeat - the horse has already bolted. Enforcing and protecting your rights relies on the apparatus of and laws created by ..........Government.

Agreed - the card most probably will only collect `points`. Please don`t take me too seriously on this - I am on my second glass of fine sake.

[Coligny]

The amount of datacollectable is ridiculous...

As in unusably ridiculous... And no need to counter with moore laws and quantum computer bullshit.

It's just the nation equivalent of hoarders. And yes you can micro rationalize as you wish that if you bought condoms and a new fridge you might start making ice dildos....

Just aboot like annexing africa because you might need the sahara's sand for litterbox if one day you get a cat.

Or the american no fly list who now includes more poddles, toddlers and already dead grand'ma than even arabs...

[Wage Slave]

... You don't even know that the My Number database will store individual items purchased, and it seems unlikely to me, yet you feel it is the thin end of a wedge that could easily end in totalitarianism. Because it's the Government. If it were a supermarket loyalty card that would be fine. Because it's a company.

I repeat - the horse has already bolted. Enforcing and protecting your rights relies on the apparatus of and laws created by ..........Government.

Agreed - the card most probably will only collect `points`. Please don`t take me too seriously on this - I am on my second glass of fine sake.

It is striking though the extent to which Reagan and Bush convinced so many Americans that government is inherently and intrinsically a bad thing. I've just been listening to a podcast about why the New Orleans flood defences failed and how the recovery and rebuilding of defenses were managed. Horrifying, and the underlying cause is that flood defence just doesn't align with the underlying ideology. It's something that you have to agree to do together for the common good. Ask the Dutch.

[Salty]

... You don't even know that the My Number database will store individual items purchased, and it seems unlikely to me, yet you feel it is the thin end of a wedge that could easily end in totalitarianism. Because it's the Government. If it were a supermarket loyalty card that would be fine. Because it's a company.

I repeat - the horse has already bolted. Enforcing and protecting your rights relies on the apparatus of and laws created by ..........Government.

Agreed - the card most probably will only collect `points`. Please don`t take me too seriously on this - I am on my second glass of fine sake.

It is striking though the extent to which Reagan and Bush convinced so many Americans that government is inherently and intrinsically a bad thing. I've just been listening to a podcast about why the New Orleans flood defences failed and how the recovery and rebuilding of defenses were managed. Horrifying, and the underlying cause is that flood defence just doesn't align with the underlying ideology. It's something that you have to agree to do together for the common good. Ask the Dutch.

And here I thought that the flood defenses were left to rot because more blacks lived there.... not just a difference in underlying ideology. After all, the underlying ideology supports payments for peanuts, sugar, oil, etc., etc. If only New Orleans had peanut farms or oil....

[wagyl]

OK, I have now seen what this is about: basicly, they are considering introducing a two tier consumption tax system, 10% for most things, but keeping foodstuffs at 8%. But they way they are considering doing that is rather than having different tax rates on different items (which is after all what they want) they will tax everything at the shop at 10%, and if you present your My Number, at a later date they will refund you the 2%. It seems like a very inefficient and costly way to achieve their aims. And those inefficiencies are my biggest issue with this.

http://www.asahi.com/topics/word/%E6%B6 ... om_keyw_02

[Wage Slave]

... You don't even know that the My Number database will store individual items purchased, and it seems unlikely to me, yet you feel it is the thin end of a wedge that could easily end in totalitarianism. Because it's the Government. If it were a supermarket loyalty card that would be fine. Because it's a company.

I repeat - the horse has already bolted. Enforcing and protecting your rights relies on the apparatus of and laws created by ..........Government.

Agreed - the card most probably will only collect `points`. Please don`t take me too seriously on this - I am on my second glass of fine sake.

It is striking though the extent to which Reagan and Bush convinced so many Americans that government is inherently and intrinsically a bad thing. I've just been listening to a podcast about why the New Orleans flood defences failed and how the recovery and rebuilding of defenses were managed. Horrifying, and the underlying cause is that flood defence just doesn't align with the underlying ideology. It's something that you have to agree to do together for the common good. Ask the Dutch.

And here I thought that the flood defenses were left to rot because more blacks lived there.... not just a difference in underlying ideology. After all, the underlying ideology supports payments for peanuts, sugar, oil, etc., etc. If only New Orleans had peanut farms or oil....

Part of it of course but really not the whole story at all. Seriously, have a listen:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p031h4t8

[Wage Slave]

OK, I have now seen what this is about: basicly, they are considering introducing a two tier consumption tax system, 10% for most things, but keeping foodstuffs at 8%. But they way they are considering doing that is rather than having different tax rates on different items (which is after all what they want) they will tax everything at the shop at 10%, and if you present your My Number, at a later date they will refund you the 2%. It seems like a very inefficient and costly way to achieve their aims. And those inefficiencies are my biggest issue with this.

http://www.asahi.com/topics/word/%E6%B6 ... om_keyw_02

Agreed - wasteful in the extreme. However, a good way to get people on the books and engaged I suppose.

But worse, think of all the wonderful arguments you miss out on with a flat rate. Are Jaffa Cakes a biscuit so taxed at 0% or a cake and therefore a luxury and liable for 20%. At precisely what temperature does a Cornish Pasty bought as a takeaway become a prepared meal as opposed to a food item?

[wagyl]

OK, I have now seen what this is about: basicly, they are considering introducing a two tier consumption tax system, 10% for most things, but keeping foodstuffs at 8%. But they way they are considering doing that is rather than having different tax rates on different items (which is after all what they want) they will tax everything at the shop at 10%, and if you present your My Number, at a later date they will refund you the 2%. It seems like a very inefficient and costly way to achieve their aims. And those inefficiencies are my biggest issue with this.

http://www.asahi.com/topics/word/%E6%B6 ... om_keyw_02

Agreed - wasteful in the extreme. However, a good way to get people on the books and engaged I suppose.

But worse, think of all the wonderful arguments you miss out on with a flat rate. Are Jaffa Cakes a biscuit so taxed at 0% or a cake and therefore a luxury and liable for 20%. At precisely what temperature does a Cornish Pasty bought as a takeaway become a prepared meal as opposed to a food item?

Yes and I strongly suspect this is a major reason for the scheme: get those My Number cards out there and active. Note that this is just a proposal being floated at this stage, but that said Abe does seem to believe he has a wide ranging mandate to do what he likes.

Next, lets argue over whether the sugar content of the rolls offered at KFC make them a necessity or a luxury.

[Salty]

Well, for sure - fast food outlets should be exempt from the system. Supermarkets please?

[Mike Oxlong]

From the General Union - Everything You Need To Know About "My Number"

In January of 2016, local governments and various organizations across Japan will begin to use the new "My Number" system to quickly obtain social security and tax information about an individual via one collated source. But what is the "My Number" system?


Many - including the GENERAL UNION - believe that is a wolf in sheep's clothing that will be used by the government to monitor people's tax, medical insurance, and pension payment history (or lack thereof) in order to harass them and demand back payments.

Others believe that while the system may provide convenience to individuals and government agencies, it also carries a steep operation cost and information theft risk that wholly outweighs any of the potential benefits.

Regardless of personal opinion, the Japanese government has pushed the "My Number" system out of the door and it will be coming to Japan in 2016, criticisms or not.

Because of this, the GENERAL UNION has written its own Q&A to help members and non-members alike understand the basics of the system...

[canman]

By the way, according to NHK, the maximum that low income earners can receive in tax rebates is Y4000 a year. So they are going to all this trouble to make these scanners that will record your My Number, then you have to save your receipts and send them in, only to be scrutinized by some hack somewhere, for the princely sum of Y4000! Any idea if FG will be eligible if they are in such an unenviable situation?

[legion]

Many - including the GENERAL UNION - believe that is a wolf in sheep's clothing that will be used by the government to monitor people's tax, medical insurance, and pension payment history (or lack thereof) in order to harass them and demand back payments.

It will probably expose a lot of tax dodging by small and medium businesses..............and politicians.

Tax dodging is of course considered a right.

[wagyl]

By the way, according to NHK, the maximum that low income earners can receive in tax rebates is Y4000 a year. So they are going to all this trouble to make these scanners that will record your My Number, then you have to save your receipts and send them in, only to be scrutinized by some hack somewhere, for the princely sum of Y4000! Any idea if FG will be eligible if they are in such an unenviable situation?

1. Is this limited just to low income earners?
   
2. The maximum of 4000 yen per consumer is based on a daily expenditure of 600 yen a day on foodstuffs, which, while not overly generous is in the ballpark I think.
   
3. Is it that you keep and present receipts? I thought it was that the data was centralised at the scanners.
   
4. Any reason why nationality is restricted? After all, there is no restriction on nationality for obtaining a My Number card.

These questions and issues show mainly that the PR job on all this has not be well thought out. It there is so much conjecture and so many questions flying around about this, it shows that they have not communicated this properly.

My own position is that is is an inefficient and poorly thought out scheme, and I am pretty much convinced it is to encourage the uptake of My Number cards and also to look like they are doing something to soften the blow of an increase in tax. To be frank, the cost of administering the consumption tax system (born largely by business but that is of course passed on to consumers as an increased cost) compared to what it collects, I think they are criminal to have less that 10%, and also add that 10% is not an excessive rate by global standards.

[Wage Slave]

Many - including the GENERAL UNION - believe that is a wolf in sheep's clothing that will be used by the government to monitor people's tax, medical insurance, and pension payment history (or lack thereof) in order to harass them and demand back payments.

This sort of politicking is what gets Unions a bad name. What exactly is wrong with having a better system to monitor people's people's tax, medical insurance, and pension payment history or lack thereof. And actually, shouldn't people who can pay, be required to make back payments if they haven't paid their contributions?

And why should a trade union be involved in fighting something like this?

[Yokohammer]

By the way, according to NHK, the maximum that low income earners can receive in tax rebates is Y4000 a year. So they are going to all this trouble to make these scanners that will record your My Number, then you have to save your receipts and send them in, only to be scrutinized by some hack somewhere, for the princely sum of Y4000! Any idea if FG will be eligible if they are in such an unenviable situation?

1. Is this limited just to low income earners?
   
2. The maximum of 4000 yen per consumer is based on a daily expenditure of 600 yen a day on foodstuffs, which, while not overly generous is in the ballpark I think.
   
3. Is it that you keep and present receipts? I thought it was that the data was centralised at the scanners.
   
4. Any reason why nationality is restricted? After all, there is no restriction on nationality for obtaining a My Number card.

These questions and issues show mainly that the PR job on all this has not be well thought out. It there is so much conjecture and so many questions flying around about this, it shows that they have not communicated this properly.

My own position is that is is an inefficient and poorly thought out scheme, and I am pretty much convinced it is to encourage the uptake of My Number cards and also to look like they are doing something to soften the blow of an increase in tax. To be frank, the cost of administering the consumption tax system (born largely by business but that is of course passed on to consumers as an increased cost) compared to what it collects, I think they are criminal to have less that 10%, and also add that 10% is not an excessive rate by global standards.

Did you hear the reason current vice-PM and finance minister Asshole Aso Taro gave for implementing this brilliant rebate system rather than introducing a multi-tiered tax system?

I kid you not ... he cocked his mouth in that endearing way of his and said, and I quote: "めんどうくさい".

This of course pissed quite a few people off. Not that it'll affect anything.

[canman]

So basically Aso said," let them eat cake"! As far as he is concerned. I would have been more impressed if he had said that these poor people didn't deserve a tax rebate, because you know that is what he is really thinking!

[Yokohammer]

One of many articles about the "mendoukusai" comment you can find online (in Japanese):

http://news.livedoor.com/article/detail/10568181/

[Samurai_Jerk]

Is it really only 4000 yen? That makes free carrots from Nova seem positively generous.

[wagyl]

Is it really only 4000 yen? That makes free carrots from Nova seem positively generous.

Yes, the proposal is to put an upper limit on the repayments at 4000 yen per person per year. That equates to the reduction of the 10% tax you paid on 220,000 yen worth of foodstuffs (tax included) to 8%.

Maybe someone is hoping that the feelings of mendokusai might be more widespread than just himself, and that people will not bother making their claim.

[Salty]

... and that people will not bother making their claim.

I wouldn`t - would you?

[Samurai_Jerk]

Is it really only 4000 yen? That makes free carrots from Nova seem positively generous.

Yes, the proposal is to put an upper limit on the repayments at 4000 yen per person per year. That equates to the reduction of the 10% tax you paid on 220,000 yen worth of foodstuffs (tax included) to 8%.

Maybe someone is hoping that the feelings of mendokusai might be more widespread than just himself, and that people will not bother making their claim.

Well if you have a wife and two kids as dependents that could be as much as 16,000 a year! Ka-ching!! I guess that Hawaii vacation is still in the cards

" let them eat cake"!

At least cake is delicious. This is more like let them eat shit sandwiches ... or maybe shit on rice since TIJ!

[wagyl]

... and that people will not bother making their claim.

I wouldn`t - would you?

I probably would.

Then again, I am the sort of person who bothers to log in to increasingly irrelevant internet forums and posts occasionally. Sometimes that seems like a lot of bother for the benefit, but I still do it. The other way of looking at is is that on their calculations you are getting almost a week's worth of groceries free!

Mr Aso won't bother saying thank you for your indolence. That would be mendokusai.