My Number

[Wage Slave]

... and that people will not bother making their claim.

I wouldn`t - would you?

I probably would.

Then again, I am the sort of person who bothers to log in to increasingly irrelevant internet forums and posts occasionally. Sometimes that seems like a lot of bother for the benefit, but I still do it. The other way of looking at is is that on their calculations you are getting almost a week's worth of groceries free!

Mr Aso won't bother saying thank you for your indolence. That would be mendokusai.

I would too. I don't turn my nose up at money - It's the rule. In our case it would be 16,000, so yes we will claim it, if we are eligible.

Anyone know the definition of low income for this exercise?

[wagyl]

Is there a reference to "low income" other than what Russell has said? And what is his source? Was he, like me, confused that this was about the payments to low income earners last year and this year, to compensate for the 5% to 8% rise, which is income restricted?

I am concerned that this forum is becoming an echo chamber, with minimal referral to outside sources.


Edited to add:
Indeed, this article suggests that there is no income limit proposed, but points out that since lower income people tend to consume less than high income people, high income people will buy more than 22 man yen foodstuffs a year and the proportional return to them will be less. Nikkei so it will probably disappear behind a paywall in three seconds.

[Wage Slave]

Thanks for that - And good work. So, it seems that all will be eligible, which would fit with the theory that the real object of the exercise is to kickstart the My Number system. We will be claiming our 16k for sure.

[Samurai_Jerk]

I wonder what the cost will be to retailers to implement whatever POS system is going to be used to track this data. I could see little cash-only mom and pop stores selling foodstuffs in shotengai getting screwed. This idea seems to one of the worst clusterfucks with almost no benefit to anyone I've ever seen cooked up by a government.

[Wage Slave]

Maybe in the case of little stores you have to get a receipt and send it in? Anyway, who buys their food from such stores these days? I think it's quite a cunning move if you accept that having a single number for all benefits and taxes linked to bank accounts is a good idea. Which I can see is likely to be more robust and efficient than the way it is being done now.

And this little exercise? Well it gets people engaged, confirms their bank account details and makes the government look good in the process. Not dumb whatever else we may say.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Maybe in the case of little stores you have to get a receipt and send it in? Anyway, who buys their food from such stores these days?

Lot's of people in the shitamachi but probably not many in most parts of Japan.

I think it's quite a cunning move if you accept that having a single number for all benefits and taxes linked to bank accounts is a good idea. Which I can see is likely to be more robust and efficient than the way it is being done now.

And this little exercise? Well it gets people engaged, confirms their bank account details and makes the government look good in the process. Not dumb whatever else we may say.

I don't see how it's cunning or makes the government look good. I have no problem with people being required to have a My Number (I do hate the name though) and agree it could be more efficient. This consumption tax rebate scheme is ridiculous though.

[Wage Slave]

It's cunning because for a relatively small amount of money that the government doesn't have to find from another source they can incentivise people to link their cards to their bank accounts and use them. It gets the whole show off the ground quickly and painlessly. And it makes the government look good because they appear to be giving money to people even though they wouldn't have it unless they took it in the first place and even though they are getting a significant benefit.

[Samurai_Jerk]

It's cunning because for a relatively small amount of money that the government doesn't have to find from another source they can incentivise people to link their cards to their bank accounts and use them. It gets the whole show off the ground quickly and painlessly. And it makes the government look good because they appear to be giving money to people even though they wouldn't have it unless they took it in the first place and even though they are getting a significant benefit.

I guess most people are stupid enough to look at it that way. I was giving them far too much credit for being able to see through the bullshit. However, there will still be people who opt out so they're going to have to require having a My Number at some point.

[Wage Slave]

I guess most people are stupid enough to look at it that way.

Count on it.

[Yokohammer]

I wonder what the cost will be to retailers to implement whatever POS system is going to be used to track this data. I could see little cash-only mom and pop stores selling foodstuffs in shotengai getting screwed. This idea seems to one of the worst clusterfucks with almost no benefit to anyone I've ever seen cooked up by a government.

Some small store owners were being interviewed about this on the news the other day, and many were saying that they are afraid of where it's going. The system hasn't started yet so nobody seems to know for sure -- there won't be any rebates until the consumption tax is upped to 10% -- but the fear is that it will be expensive and a pain in the ass. So yeah, the gov't is simply forcing the little guys to subsidize their "mendoukusai" so they don't have to, on top of raising the tax, and it might very well break the backs of many a camel.

[Samurai_Jerk]

I wonder what the cost will be to retailers to implement whatever POS system is going to be used to track this data. I could see little cash-only mom and pop stores selling foodstuffs in shotengai getting screwed. This idea seems to one of the worst clusterfucks with almost no benefit to anyone I've ever seen cooked up by a government.

Some small store owners were being interviewed about this on the news the other day, and many were saying that they are afraid of where it's going. The system hasn't started yet so nobody seems to know for sure -- there won't be any rebates until the consumption tax is upped to 10% -- but the fear is that it will be expensive and a pain in the ass. So yeah, the gov't is simply forcing the little guys to subsidize their "mendoukusai" so they don't have to, on top of raising the tax, and it might very well break the backs of many a camel.

I hate to see anything else done that speeds up the eventual extinctions of such shops. Anyway, I can't see how this is any less mendokusai for the government than a tiered tax system.

[wagyl]

I can't see how this is any less mendokusai for the government than a tiered tax system.

In much the same way that the current rebate to low income earners is not mendokusai. They make it so that it is someone else (it this case it is the municipalities, and I am guessing they will do this one the same way) who posts out the application forms, one to each potential candidate, and who accepts the completed applications, verifies the bank account, and sends out the payments. The national government gets to look big, the costs of the scheme are borne by the municipalities [ultimately the taxpayers] (and shopkeepers [ultimately the consumers]).

Although you are correct in saying that a two tiered tax system is in no way mendokusai for the government either. It requires one extra option in the database in the cash registers: tax free, tax 10%, and tax 8%.

[Salty]

Thanks for that - And good work. So, it seems that all will be eligible, which would fit with the theory that the real object of the exercise is to kickstart the My Number system. We will be claiming our 16k for sure.

How do you arrive at 16? Yourself, spouse, and two kids? Or possibly live-in parents? Not that I need to know of course, but I hadn`t considered kids, and at what age they get a number....

EDIT: Kids would need their own bank account too... right?

[wagyl]

If they have a juminhyou they will get a number. http://www.cas.go.jp/jp/seisaku/bangose ... h-faq.html

[Salty]

If they have a juminhyou they will get a number. http://www.cas.go.jp/jp/seisaku/bangose ... h-faq.html

Thanks for that link – I scanned it rather rapidly, so may have missed a detail or two, but…

A newborn in Japan gets added to their parent’s family register within 30(?) days of birth, and at that point can obtain a Jyuminhyo. So it seems that even infants will have a number, if applied for.

Also I noted that the period of validity for those under 20 is limited to 5 years `since appearances change for youth`. But nowhere else did I see that appearance was important, physical description would be recorded, or photos would be taken. Anyone know what additional personal information will be recorded? (eye and hair color, height, weight, photo, shoe size, fingerprint scanned, scars or birth marks, sexual preferences, etc., etc….?)

[Mike Oxlong]

If they have a juminhyou they will get a number. http://www.cas.go.jp/jp/seisaku/bangose ... h-faq.html

Also I noted that the period of validity for those under 20 is limited to 5 years `since appearances change for youth`. But nowhere else did I see that appearance was important, physical description would be recorded, or photos would be taken. Anyone know what additional personal information will be recorded? (eye and hair color, height, weight, photo, shoe size, fingerprint scanned, scars or birth marks, sexual preferences, etc., etc….?)

It's in the general union link on page 2.

[Salty]

If they have a juminhyou they will get a number. http://www.cas.go.jp/jp/seisaku/bangose ... h-faq.html

Also I noted that the period of validity for those under 20 is limited to 5 years `since appearances change for youth`. But nowhere else did I see that appearance was important, physical description would be recorded, or photos would be taken. Anyone know what additional personal information will be recorded? (eye and hair color, height, weight, photo, shoe size, fingerprint scanned, scars or birth marks, sexual preferences, etc., etc….?)

It's in the general union link on page 2.

Yes... Thanks,

A 3-2 Like Basic Resident Registration Cards, Individual Number Cards will contain an IC chip. They will have the bearer's name, address, date of birth, and sex (known as the "four basic information items") as well as an ID photograph on the front, and the Individual Number on the back.

[wagyl]

So, whose card will I take to the supermarket today, for the family shop?

Has anyone actually thought this through before announcing it?

[Yokohammer]

So, whose card will I take to the supermarket today, for the family shop?

Has anyone actually thought this through before announcing it?

Exactly. A few of the comments have been puzzling me ... as in, if only the housewife in a family of four shops for food at the supermarket, for example, that family's rebate is going to be capped at 4,000, innit. Dreams of 8,000 or 16,000 go out the window pretty quick. Or am I missing something?

[legion]

So, whose card will I take to the supermarket today, for the family shop?

Has anyone actually thought this through before announcing it?

Think things through, no

Discuss endlessly with no agenda, logic or conclusion, yup

Then have a small select group make the "real" decision, that everyone else goes along with, and when it runs out of steam, start the whole process again, with free tea in plastic bottles.

[Wage Slave]

So, whose card will I take to the supermarket today, for the family shop?

Has anyone actually thought this through before announcing it?

Exactly. A few of the comments have been puzzling me ... as in, if only the housewife in a family of four shops for food at the supermarket, for example, that family's rebate is going to be capped at 4,000, innit. Dreams of 8,000 or 16,000 go out the window pretty quick. Or am I missing something?

I suppose she could present another card once she reaches 4,000 on hers? Or the head of the household's could be enabled up to 8k, 12k, 16k or whatever it is. Kids (and wives!) eat a heap of food so it would be unfair not to grant me the same allowance for them.

There are a few ways payment could be handled. At present child benefit is paid directly to me - I don't see why any other benefits or refunded tax should not be paid the same way.

Salty,

Yes, I was thinking of a wife and two kids.

[wagyl]

I suppose she could present another card once she reaches 4,000 on hers? Or the head of the household's could be enabled up to 8k, 12k, 16k or whatever it is. Kids (and wives!) eat a heap of food so it would be unfair not to grant me the same allowance for them.

There are a few ways payment could be handled.

Or, they could just levy a tax of 8% on foodstuffs. That is another way of doing it!

Giving a concession for an increased tax is so very clearly not their motive.

I am beginning to admire Aso for having the balls to say "Mendokusai" with a straight face. Except I don't admire him, because he is not telling the truth. Again.*

* I am able to say that because unlike Samurai Jerk, I do not have facts. i just have opinions.

[legion]

I am beginning to admire Aso for having the balls to say "Mendokusai" with a straight face. Except I don't admire him, because he is not telling the truth. Again.*

* I am able to say that because unlike Samurai Jerk, I do not have facts. i just have opinions.

Maybe he meant, "Trying to work with established departments in the finance ministry/tax office, is a pain in the ass, so I will create a new system and a new department to administer it and thus avoid negotiating through fiefdoms."

[wagyl]

Or maybe he meant "it is not politically expedient for me to give an honest answer, so that gives me licence in my own mind to not give an honest answer. Because my political security is more important to me than the future of the country, even the very near future."

And he is also dreaming if he thinks creating a new bureaucracy will work out any better than the old ones.

[legion]

I think you just beat me at cynicism

[Salty]

On whose card to use – my guess is that the supermarket wouldn`t care, and further – my guess is that it will be a customer use device reader, so the clerk won`t know. So for sure – manage the cards for maximum benefit.

But this isn`t a done deal yet – as the terminals still need to be built and installed, and that is a rather big undertaking. And some cash registers will not take an additional device, some stores will not have available counter space, etc. Lots of issues to be addressed.

Plus… having 20… maybe 30,000 people with detailed knowledge of the terminal, its security, the software drivers, etc. – seems to me to be a rather bad idea for this card. I can see a petty fraud in the making I will top up your card to the full 4,000 rebate for just half of the difference. Perfect for the TOC booths next to Pachinkos.

[Yokohammer]

The My Number cards will be linked to an address, right? It would be trivial for the gov't to limit the rebate to 4,000 per household if they wanted to, and I'm betting they want to. And since it's a social security number the idea of using someone else's number, even if it's a family member, probably won't fly. It's tax/pension/national health insurance ID, so it's not what you'd call a loose arrangement that can be manipulated for personal advantage, although I'm quite sure people will try. Especially if it's also linked to a bank account. That further throws the idea of using it willy-nilly at retail outlets into the harsh light of "WTF are they thinking?"

Another brilliant gov't scheme haphazardly thrown together to serve Elite Club interests with very little thought for its effect on the masses (or possibly a deliberate deception intended to even further surveil and control the masses?). I mean, running a country is just so ... mendoukusai.

[Russell]

The point of giving a rebate via this card is the following.

They want to raise the consumption tax to 10%, but because the population is squarely against it, the politicians want to soften the opposition against it. So, they now allow people to get a rebate, probably thinking that only the poorest people will apply.

What is better than doing it via this card, which they have been wanting to introduce for a long time, but which also has attracted opposition. Now they can argue that you need that card to get your rebate, even though the whole scheme is wildly impractical. Yes, they could just keep their tax on food stuff at 8%. That would be much simpler. But it would also raise less money.

[kurogane]

From the General Union - Everything You Need To Know About "My Number"

Many - including the GENERAL UNION - believe that is a wolf in sheep's clothing that will be used by the government to monitor people's tax, medical insurance, and pension payment history (or lack thereof) in order to harass them and demand back payments.

Expecting proper payment? Demanding one must fulfill one's financial obligations!!??? WHAT AN OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't these silly Wogs know who the General Union represents? I happily predict that the next few months at any given HUB or Pig & Whistler will be an unintended laugh riot of fulsomely flummoxed flagrantly fatuous FGs fuming like Wagyl's avatar could only dream of doing. Which such establishments have the greatest concentration of Still Angry Made in Japan instructor types? I might have to buy a smart phone just for this. We could probably start a whole new 2CH meme with videos of fat balding overpaid 40dumbthings ranting semi-articulately about actually having to pay the taxes they are actually supposed to pay.

[Coligny]

Will it be legal to make a purchase without a "mah numbah" card or are they going full Brazil on our asses ?