Cheating car emission tests

[Wage Slave]

Regarding correlations and causation I always liked the one between the number of firemen sent to a fire and the damage caused by the fire.

[Salty]

I am pleased that all of the NOx is spewing on this now, since I suspect that our next crutch will be `clean diesel`, if such a thing still exists.

[chibaka]

I am pleased that all of the NOx is spewing on this now, since I suspect that our next crutch will be `clean diesel`, if such a thing still exists.

I've been wondering about the recent クリーンディーゼル movement in Japan, wife and I tried the new Mazda while considering her next car..... any news from the other manufacturers yet? Especially in J land?

[Salty]

I am pleased that all of the NOx is spewing on this now, since I suspect that our next crutch will be `clean diesel`, if such a thing still exists.

I've been wondering about the recent クリーンディーゼル movement in Japan, wife and I tried the new Mazda while considering her next car..... any news from the other manufacturers yet? Especially in J land?

I have yet to see anything on J cars - but time will see it, since there will now be comparisons in the US that will spill over into Japan. Much as did the airbag recall. We really need independent testing....

[Russell]

I am pleased that all of the NOx is spewing on this now, since I suspect that our next crutch will be `clean diesel`, if such a thing still exists.

I've been wondering about the recent クリーンディーゼル movement in Japan, wife and I tried the new Mazda while considering her next car..... any news from the other manufacturers yet? Especially in J land?

A year or 10 ago the government decided to outlaw all diesel passenger cars older than a certain age. Lots of people had to buy a new car then, though many rural areas were exempt. It wouldn't surprise me if all newer diesel cars will now also be outlawed because of this scandal. Well, at least it stimulates car sales.

Lesson: do not buy a diesel in Japan.

[Russell]

Finding the research is not exactly rocket science. http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/fi ... 152015.pdf

Whether the research considers that there is software interfering with test results is a completely different matter. It does however suggest that the sample size of one vehicle each from Volvo, Renault and Hyundai will have difficulties in passing a real world on road test. There was only one Volkswagen tested for that research, and it gave average results, three Audi vehicles gave poor results.

Thanks.

The Telegraph now also found it.

VW crisis: Volvo, Renault and Hyundai could all fail future EU tests

Volvo, Renault, and Hyundai could all fail future emission tests, a study discloses as other manufacturers face being dragged into the Volkswagen scandal.

The examiners who first raised concerns about VW discovered in previous research how Volvo diesels were producing up to 15 times emission limits set to be introduced by 2018.

The International Council on Clean Transportation said the three car makers "would very likely be unfit to pass" new rules.

The ICCT study found Volvo, Renault, and Hyundai all passed emissions limits under current lab conditions approved by the EU.

However, Volvo's figures escalated to 14.6 times over current limits when subjected to the more rigorous test. Last night Volvo said a faulty car had been used.

Renault was 8.8 times over while and Hyundai 6.9 times above legal levels.

The report concluded: "These vehicles would very likely be unfit to pass the RDE test, and would thus be left out of the EU market (unless they had their NOX control systems recalibrated) if RDE type-approval criteria applied today."

Despite the storm surrounding the company, Volkswagen vehicles scored well in both tests.

BMW - who vehemently denied manipulating or rigging diesel emissions tests - also performed well with current EU testing matching future regulations.

Testers were only able to carry out checks on single vehicles from Volvo, Renault, and Hyundai, while other manufacturers had tests on multiple models.

The ICCT said: "The results... point to a serious compliance problem for NOX emissions from current Euro 6 diesel passenger cars.

"It should be noted that NOX emissions from diesel cars are a unique case in this sense, and that no other pollutant from either gasoline or diesel passenger cars (with the possible exception of particle number emissions from GDI vehicles) presents a comparable challenge regarding its control."

Carmakers can use a whole range of techniques to ensure that their cars perform far better under test conditions than when driven by ordinary drivers.

Former AA inspector Peter De Nayer, one of Britain's top independent testers, told the Telegraph: “The trouble is the authorities have tried to do emissions testing on the cheap. Cars should be lifted at random from showrooms, when in reality they are supplied by the manufacturers, which leaves open the possibility for the cars to be specially prepared.

“This isn't new. There have long been rumours that some manufacturers switch off certain electrical systems on test cars, such as those that control the airbags, to reduce the load on the engine. “And the current test only requires a car to accelerate from 30-70mph in two-and-a-half minutes, so you could put the engine in a more efficient setting that makes it completely gutless without the testers realising anything was wrong.

“Some people are complaining that the current tests aren’t fit for purpose because they’re conducted in a laboratory, but I've never argued that. Controlled conditions are necessary. It’s just that those controlled conditions aren't realistic at the moment. For example, an engine is up to 40 per cent less efficient when it’s started from cold and the ambient temperature is 10 degrees. But the official tests can be conducted in temperatures of up to 30 degrees. That’s fine for Athens, but it doesn’t apply in Aldershot. It's crucial that emissions tests reflect real-world driving."

Mr De Nayer suspects the VW has been sending its cleaner Euro 6 models to testers in America while its older Euro 5 engines were still being sold.

He said: "Reading between the lines, what we're dealing with is VW fitting Euro 6 emissions technology to Euro 5 cars for the laboratory testing."

Hyundai said that "none of our vehicles are fitted with any type of software intended to manipulate regulatory emissions tests results".

The carmaker added: Hyundai Motor abides by the testing regulations and methods of each region where it sells cars including Europe."

Volvo said in a statement: “Analysis shows that a faulty car was used for this test; a correct Volvo would never have generated these results. The same agency tested several normal Volvos previously, using similar methods, generating normal results. We have investigated this incident further and discovered that the car’s emission control system was out of order.”

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In other words, there was a bug in their cheating software...

[chibaka]

A year or 10 ago the government decided to outlaw all diesel passenger cars older than a certain age. Lots of people had to buy a new car then, though many rural areas were exempt. It wouldn't surprise me if all newer diesel cars will now also be outlawed because of this scandal. Well, at least it stimulates car sales.

Lesson: do not buy a diesel in Japan.

I know, my first car here was a diesel and I was told during shaken time that it would be the last. Stealer offered a pittance, so I sent it home

How is this affecting petrol cars? They also emit gases, the UK car taxation system is now emissions based not engine size... could be fun

[wagyl]

I am pleased that all of the NOx is spewing on this now, since I suspect that our next crutch will be `clean diesel`, if such a thing still exists.

I've been wondering about the recent クリーンディーゼル movement in Japan, wife and I tried the new Mazda while considering her next car..... any news from the other manufacturers yet? Especially in J land?

I have yet to see anything on J cars.

That is only because you have not been looking. Mazda performed well in the white paper linked above http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/fi ... 152015.pdf

[Coligny]

Lucky the Russians seems to be suckers for Japanese // imports...

But wasn't the diesel private car ban just a thing for Tokyo ?

[Coligny]

The International Council on Clean Transportation said the three car makers "would very likely be unfit to pass" new rules.

For fuck sake... OF COURSE, vehicles made to pass test version X might not pass test version X+1...

Tthat's bullshit sensationalization. The only concern is/should be do vehicle made to pass test X really do pass test X...

[Salty]

I am pleased that all of the NOx is spewing on this now, since I suspect that our next crutch will be `clean diesel`, if such a thing still exists.

I've been wondering about the recent クリーンディーゼル movement in Japan, wife and I tried the new Mazda while considering her next car..... any news from the other manufacturers yet? Especially in J land?

I have yet to see anything on J cars.

That is only because you have not been looking. Mazda performed well in the white paper linked above http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/fi ... 152015.pdf

That is true... I hadn`t read the White Paper `till just now. Thanks for posting it.

[Russell]

Lucky the Russians seems to be suckers for Japanese // imports...

But wasn't the diesel private car ban just a thing for Tokyo ?

It also applied to Kobe.

I think only rural areas were exempt.

But for them it doesn't make difference to breath this additional NOx, because they die earlier anyway...

[legion]

Lucky the Russians seems to be suckers for Japanese // imports...

But wasn't the diesel private car ban just a thing for Tokyo ?

It also applied to Kobe.

I think only rural areas were exempt.

But for them it doesn't make difference to breath this additional NOx, because they die earlier anyway...

run over by 90 year old farmers in kei trucks?

[Coligny]

Laugh all you can while it's still not a daily occurence... Coming soon on every road...

[Grumpy Gramps]

When (if ever) I am niney, I want to have a skidder. Much more fun than a kei-truck to run over things and no problem with emissions.

[kurogane]

Lucky the Russians seems to be suckers for Japanese // imports...

But wasn't the diesel private car ban just a thing for Tokyo ?

It also applied to Kobe.

I think only rural areas were exempt.

Yes, it was a Metropolitan Areas ban. I changed my address from Kyoto city proper to Bumlandia in preparation, but then had to leave. It was sad to part, but it heartens me to think that in some frozen Goolag somebody loves The Kappa as much as I did. And according to my final Shaken it was quite an obNOxious vehicle. I wonder if that's the etymology?

LIve, My Beloved Kappa. Be Free!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Coligny]

Looks like the L300 little bro...

image.jpg

Back when Nissan was making cool cars...

[Russell]

Cover-up of British tests that showed diesel fume cheating

Dramatic new evidence of how the motoring industry conspired with ministers to cover up cheating in diesel car testing can be revealed.

A team of British scientists repeatedly warned the Government that emissions of a deadly pollutant from diesel cars far exceeded official safety levels. The scientists measured emissions from tens of thousands of diesel engine cars as they drove past sensors on roads in tests carried out since 2011.

The studies, funded by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra), showed that on average diesel cars emitted four times the legal limit of dangerous NOx gases.

Their findings appear to have been ignored by successive governments which have continued to offer generous tax subsidies to encourage people to buy diesel cars, which now account for half of new cars sold in the UK.

The spotlight has fallen on diesel car emissions after Volkswagen, the world’s biggest car manufacturer, admitted that it had used a “defeat” device to beat the official tests and enable polluting cars to pass US regulations.

Problems at the scandal-hit company increased yesterday when Switzerland announced it was banning the sale of a number of VW models as well as Skoda and Seat diesels also made by the company. The move is expected to affect 180,000 cars. Cars sold and already on the road will not be subject to the ban.

It came as a report out on Monday by Transport & Environment, the campaign group which first raised the spectre of “defeat” devices used in tests, will show that the gap between the true fuel economy for cars and the claims made by manufacturers in testing has grown in the past five years and the car industry is using more and more sophisticated methods to cheat tests.

The scientific studies of roadside emissions were carried out by a team from King’s College London and paid for by Defra. The studies showed that NOx emissions have not declined since 2006 despite increasingly stringent requirements from the European Union.

Dr David Carslaw, who led the research, said: “What our studies show is that when these vehicles are officially tested they pass the European emissions standards but when you test them on the road they on average are emitting four times more NOx pollutant.

“We expected to see really substantial reductions in NOx emissions but that has not happened. There is a huge gap between what the manufacturers report and what is actually happening.” He added: “It has been known for some time and Defra are certainly aware that concentrations [of NOx] have not decreased.”

The studies, which measured emissions from more than 100,000 cars, show that Oxford Street, London’s busiest shopping thoroughfare, is the most heavily polluted road in the world. It is estimated that 9,500 people a year die from the effects of NO2 pollution in the UK alone. Diesel cars emit about five to ten times more NOx gases – which include NO2 – than petrol cars.

However, because diesel cars are more fuel efficient than petrol cars they emit less CO2, meaning since 2001 they have qualified for cheaper road tax.

Successive governments have deliberately made diesel cars more attractive and further subsidies, announced in this year’s budget, will be introduced next year although George Osborne, the Chancellor, will be under pressure to scrap them after the VW scandal.

Steve Gooding, director of the RAC Foundation, the motoring think tank, said: “Leaving aside the VW scandal, report after report has highlighted how what happens on the road can be a far cry from what’s recorded in the lab. Some say successive governments here and in Brussels have been too slow to grasp air quality issues in pursuit of CO2 reductions. But the events of the last two weeks have been an almighty wake-up call.”

Transport & Environment’s new report will claim that cheating by car manufacturers is not limited to diesel engines or to rigged air pollution tests.

“Cheating goes on for all vehicle tests,” a spokesman said last night. “We are only just scratching the surface of this. Our report will offer compelling evidence that fuel economy tests are also being manipulated by many of the big manufacturers. Without an independent regulator in Europe cheating companies won’t be caught.”

More

[Coligny]

Good, the bigger it gets, the closer we'll have for only solution to ban all cars. And consequently give up on trying to solve the problem...

[Russell]

Good, the bigger it gets, the closer we'll have for only solution to ban all cars. And consequently give up on trying to solve the problem...

Yes, that's what it will end up with in the short term.

In the longer term, it will be hybrids and electrics.

[wagyl]

Good, the bigger it gets, the closer we'll have for only solution to ban all cars. And consequently give up on trying to solve the problem...

Yes, that's what it will end up with in the short term.

In the longer term, it will be hybrids and electrics.

I do not believe that that is a certainty.

And even if it is, hybrids produce the same bogeyman gases as they necessarily utilise internal combustion engines, just not full time. If the internal combustion engine vehicles are banned, so are the hybrids.

And then, that is the source of electricity to store in the batteries of your electric vehicles? Almost all comes from burning hydrocarbons, which produces the same bogeyman gases. This is especially so since fission became a bigger bogeyman.

Time to invest in a farrier's school?

[Coligny]

Good, the bigger it gets, the closer we'll have for only solution to ban all cars. And consequently give up on trying to solve the problem...

Yes, that's what it will end up with in the short term.

In the longer term, it will be hybrids and electrics.

Yes, and I'm already drooling for the new Stpwgn hybrid... Saw it in the street... It even looks good... Check the wabsite... Aside from the ground clearance it's a bundle of total awesome.

But on the other hand... The leaf have a battery of 24kwh... I can easily fit enough solar panels on the bunker to... Make it rain proof which would be awesome already... But also able to charge it almost twice a day...
Or i take the Delica off the roads and use it only as a power generator, 110kw minus efficiency of whatever is driven... Nox emissions apply to road legal vehicles... Not to backyard project and in case of zombie apocalypse, fuck the RT laws, I'm bugging out in my coal rolling doomsday van...

[Russell]

Good, the bigger it gets, the closer we'll have for only solution to ban all cars. And consequently give up on trying to solve the problem...

Yes, that's what it will end up with in the short term.

In the longer term, it will be hybrids and electrics.

I do not believe that that is a certainty.

And even if it is, hybrids produce the same bogeyman gases as they necessarily utilise internal combustion engines, just not full time. If the internal combustion engine vehicles are banned, so are the hybrids.

And then, that is the source of electricity to store in the batteries of your electric vehicles? Almost all comes from burning hydrocarbons, which produces the same bogeyman gases. This is especially so since fission became a bigger bogeyman.

Time to invest in a farrier's school?

For hybrids it is less critical, because the engines can work in a regime optimized for constant RPM, rather than optimal power. The peaks in power will be delivered by the electric motor(s). Of course there will still be emissions, but they will be vastly less than those of purely gasoline or diesel cars.

[Wage Slave]

Or i take the Delica off the roads and use it only as a power generator, 110kw minus efficiency of whatever is driven...

Wouldn't something designed as a generator from scratch be far more compact, efficient and economical?

And 110kw minus efficiency? That's quite an alternator you have in the Delica. This little unit is a mere 3.2 kw so 30 times less.

61yyjO0KHTL._SL1181_.jpg

[wagyl]

Good, the bigger it gets, the closer we'll have for only solution to ban all cars. And consequently give up on trying to solve the problem...

Yes, that's what it will end up with in the short term.

In the longer term, it will be hybrids and electrics.

I do not believe that that is a certainty.

And even if it is, hybrids produce the same bogeyman gases as they necessarily utilise internal combustion engines, just not full time. If the internal combustion engine vehicles are banned, so are the hybrids.

And then, that is the source of electricity to store in the batteries of your electric vehicles? Almost all comes from burning hydrocarbons, which produces the same bogeyman gases. This is especially so since fission became a bigger bogeyman.

Time to invest in a farrier's school?

For hybrids it is less critical, because the engines can work in a regime optimized for constant RPM, rather than optimal power. The peaks in power will be delivered by the electric motor(s). Of course there will still be emissions, but they will be vastly less than those of purely gasoline or diesel cars.

Frankly I think the solution that will be raised before that is enlarged urea tanks in your VW diesel to constantly piss in the exhaust.

[Russell]

Good, the bigger it gets, the closer we'll have for only solution to ban all cars. And consequently give up on trying to solve the problem...

Yes, that's what it will end up with in the short term.

In the longer term, it will be hybrids and electrics.

I do not believe that that is a certainty.

And even if it is, hybrids produce the same bogeyman gases as they necessarily utilise internal combustion engines, just not full time. If the internal combustion engine vehicles are banned, so are the hybrids.

And then, that is the source of electricity to store in the batteries of your electric vehicles? Almost all comes from burning hydrocarbons, which produces the same bogeyman gases. This is especially so since fission became a bigger bogeyman.

Time to invest in a farrier's school?

For hybrids it is less critical, because the engines can work in a regime optimized for constant RPM, rather than optimal power. The peaks in power will be delivered by the electric motor(s). Of course there will still be emissions, but they will be vastly less than those of purely gasoline or diesel cars.

Frankly I think the solution that will be raised before that is enlarged urea tanks in your VW diesel to constantly piss in the exhaust.

My understanding is that the current VW diesels do not have urea tanks, because it was stated somewhere that they would need to install those tanks on the to-be-recalled cars, which would be costly and take valuable space in the cars luggage compartment.

Speaking of piss, you won't get away with pissing in those tanks, because they need a purer urea solution (minus the biological contaminants) of a 10 times higher concentration. It is estimated that this solution for VW will cost 50 bucks a year for an owner to fill up the tank once a year. I already look forward to the DIY-er who will show on YT how to distill your own piss for a cheaper solution. Imagine that, driving around with your car full of piss...

[Coligny]

Or i take the Delica off the roads and use it only as a power generator, 110kw minus efficiency of whatever is driven...

Wouldn't something designed as a generator from scratch be far more compact, efficient and economical?

And 110kw minus efficiency? That's quite an alternator you have in the Delica. This little unit is a mere 3.2 kw so 30 times less.

61yyjO0KHTL._SL1181_.jpg

110kw is the flywheel power output

[Wage Slave]

Or i take the Delica off the roads and use it only as a power generator, 110kw minus efficiency of whatever is driven...

Wouldn't something designed as a generator from scratch be far more compact, efficient and economical?

And 110kw minus efficiency? That's quite an alternator you have in the Delica. This little unit is a mere 3.2 kw so 30 times less.

61yyjO0KHTL._SL1181_.jpg

110kw is the flywheel power output

Yep at 5,000 rpm or so?

Masses of power but if you need a couple of Kw for recharging batteries and keeping the lights and rice cooker on then surely a little generator with it's own little engine is the way to go?

Not that I have one mind - just speculating.

[Coligny]

Good, the bigger it gets, the closer we'll have for only solution to ban all cars. And consequently give up on trying to solve the problem...

Yes, that's what it will end up with in the short term.

In the longer term, it will be hybrids and electrics.

I do not believe that that is a certainty.

And even if it is, hybrids produce the same bogeyman gases as they necessarily utilise internal combustion engines, just not full time. If the internal combustion engine vehicles are banned, so are the hybrids.

And then, that is the source of electricity to store in the batteries of your electric vehicles? Almost all comes from burning hydrocarbons, which produces the same bogeyman gases. This is especially so since fission became a bigger bogeyman.

Time to invest in a farrier's school?

For hybrids it is less critical, because the engines can work in a regime optimized for constant RPM, rather than optimal power. The peaks in power will be delivered by the electric motor(s). Of course there will still be emissions, but they will be vastly less than those of purely gasoline or diesel cars.

It's already like that since CVT gearboxes, engine stick at steady optimized rpms, the gearbox manage the car speed by herself... Must admit it was super smooth on the Note, and no screwups when going up when the ecu don't know which gear to take. Meanwhile, going down it was a complete nightmare to get any engine braking, maybe with paddleshift gear emulation 's better. (Like on the delica in fact, the paddleshifter serve no purpose for 'sporty driving' but are a godsend to manage downhill engine braking

[wagyl]

My understanding is that the current VW diesels do not have urea tanks.

I know that "retweeting is not an endorsement" but I seem to remember someone posting this recently, one page back:

The devices are thought to work by injecting more urea – an exhaust fluid – into the car when it is being tested.

I suppose there could be a lack of tanks and just a direct link by urethral catheter, but that does seem to be exceptional risktaking.

In any event, it may lead to less people taking the piss on forums like this one.