No naming rights for 'Tokyo Gas Toxic Waste & Fish Market'

[Taro Toporific]

After long debate, the city of Tokyo declined the naming rights offer for the " Tokyo Gas & Petrochemical Fish Market."

After long debate, new Tsukiji fish market to be called Tsukiji Fish Market (築地魚河岸)
http://ginza.keizai.biz/headline/2865/ --- (@Mulboyne) Oct. 6, 2015

gas-fish-market_640x.jpg

The-rest-of-the-story is that the new Tsukiji fish market is being built on top of the toxic waste site of Tokyo Gas Company.
Refer to The Japan Times (2008/05/20): New Tsukiji site highly toxic: panel

myTokyoGas_logo.gif

my-tokyo-gas.png

Gas slogan explained

[Coligny]

Direct threadjack from the same wabsite:

NATIONAL | CHUBU CONNECTION
Girl, 12, lands patent for can-separating recycling bin

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/0 ... hPeMYjXerU

Holy fucking shit, this whole country is a nationwide shortbus.

Welcome to the 50's japan... Nice to see you are catching up... I said 50 's at random though, the magnetic separation date from when cars were not using snap-fit contruction and were shredded whole to separate ferrous parts from the rest of the crap.

[Russell]

Direct threadjack from the same wabsite:

NATIONAL | CHUBU CONNECTION
Girl, 12, lands patent for can-separating recycling bin

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/0 ... hPeMYjXerU

Holy fucking shit, this whole country is a nationwide shortbus.

Welcome to the 50's japan... Nice to see you are catching up... I said 50 's at random though, the magnetic separation date from when cars were not using snap-fit contruction and were shredded whole to separate ferrous parts from the rest of the crap.

Coligny, the fact that a patent was granted means that the idea of applying magnets directly in recycling bins has sufficient novelty. Nobody argues that magnets can attract ferrite metals. The novelty is in the application.

[kurogane]

Nice. I couldn't figure out WTF he was on about either. It sounds like she came up with an elegant and inexpensive solution that could do some good, and at least make grandpa's life a little easier.

[Coligny]

Direct threadjack from the same wabsite:

NATIONAL | CHUBU CONNECTION
Girl, 12, lands patent for can-separating recycling bin

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/0 ... hPeMYjXerU

Holy fucking shit, this whole country is a nationwide shortbus.

Welcome to the 50's japan... Nice to see you are catching up... I said 50 's at random though, the magnetic separation date from when cars were not using snap-fit contruction and were shredded whole to separate ferrous parts from the rest of the crap.

Coligny, the fact that a patent was granted means that the idea of applying magnets directly in recycling bins has sufficient novelty. Nobody argues that magnets can attract ferrite metals. The novelty is in the application.

The fact that the patent was granted means the japanese Patent office is fielded by the same kind of moron than the US ones. Patenting the obvious should not happens.
Ever heard of prior art ?
Magnetic separation of material for recycling is really old as fuck and in smart countries done massively at the foundry/recycling center to avoid the cost of having separators in every trash can and needing separate trucks or compartementalized truck dumps. Just because she did it at 1/100th scale should not make it eligible for a new patent.
Back home and in the big T recycling containers for alumunimun cans, iron cans and glass are the same bucket, why ? Because they are extremly easy to separate on massive scale at the recycling center.

[kurogane]

The-rest-of-the-story is that the new Tsukiji fish market is being built on top of the toxic waste site of Tokyo Gas Company.
Refer to The Japan Times (2008/05/20): New Tsukiji site highly toxic: panel

So one could summarise by suggesting the whole debate was just a waste of hot air?

[Russell]

Direct threadjack from the same wabsite:

NATIONAL | CHUBU CONNECTION
Girl, 12, lands patent for can-separating recycling bin

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/0 ... hPeMYjXerU

Holy fucking shit, this whole country is a nationwide shortbus.

Welcome to the 50's japan... Nice to see you are catching up... I said 50 's at random though, the magnetic separation date from when cars were not using snap-fit contruction and were shredded whole to separate ferrous parts from the rest of the crap.

Coligny, the fact that a patent was granted means that the idea of applying magnets directly in recycling bins has sufficient novelty. Nobody argues that magnets can attract ferrite metals. The novelty is in the application.

The fact that the patent was granted means the japanese Patent office is fielded by the same kind of moron than the US ones. Patenting the obvious should not happens.
Ever heard of prior art ?
Magnetic separation of material for recycling is really old as fuck and in smart countries done massively at the foundry/recycling center to avoid the cost of having separators in every trash can and needing separate trucks or compartementalized truck dumps. Just because she did it at 1/100th scale should not make it eligible for a new patent.
Back home and in the big T recycling containers for alumunimun cans, iron cans and glass are the same bucket, why ? Because they are extremly easy to separate on massive scale at the recycling center.

Patent offices will always check for prior art. In this case they did not find this design for the smaller scale, so they granted a patent. It is not only the magnet, but also the part of the bin that ensures that cans get separated out efficiently, like hole size, etc. The fact that it has been done on a grander scale is irrelevant here, because the design is different.

Patents may seem trivial, in hindsight. But the fact that nobody thought about it before is rewarded. And it is very nice for that 12-year old girl, isn't it? I hope it will give a positive direction to her future life.

[kurogane]

Yes to that. Well put. It doesn't mean anybody has to buy it, and it certainly can't restrict the use of a magnet as the separating device, but it's a nice, clever creation. I really don't see why Coligny is treating this issue as his own toxic waste dump. His anger seems so exaggerated it almost smells fishy...........

[Samurai_Jerk]

in smart countries

But how is it done in France?

[kurogane]

They just surrender the rights to their betters. For cheese.

[Coligny]

Patent offices will always check for prior art. In this case they did not find this design for the smaller scale, so they granted a patent. It is not only the magnet, but also the part of the bin that ensures that cans get separated out efficiently, like hole size, etc. The fact that it has been done on a grander scale is irrelevant here, because the design is different.

The fact that it exist in bigger size is everything: IT EXIST. boeing can't get a patent for the V22. They can get patent for tiltrotors. No matter if the design is used in a remote control toy or a 20tons aircraft. You patent technologies and applies them in different machines. If not, the patent for turbo used in a car would not be valid if used in a truck... Since you know... Trucks are bigger...

Patent issues are getting worse since the last 15-20 years, with the clusterfuck of software patents and the mind numbing blindness of office trying as hard as they can to ignore prior art.

The fact that this brainfart is from a 12yo and would make for a warm and fuzzy bullshit the locals enjoy so much to feast on might be the only reason a patent was awarded.
There is prior art and the application of the concept is evident.

Patents may seem trivial, in hindsight.

Good, so you admit yourself that it is invalid. You can't patent sonething obvious or trivial. Patent protect research and real discoveries. Not 12 yo plagiarized brainfarts.

But the fact that nobody thought about it before is rewarded. And it is very nice for that 12-year old girl, isn't it? I hope it will give a positive direction to her future life.

No, it's not that nobody thought about it, the idea to separate on the bin iron and alu is useless at best, wastefull from a logistic standpoint which make it in fine a stupid brainfart. And not even including half empty cans who would be to heavy to deviate with the magnet strenght only.
The only lesson for her would be to exploit credulity. Not all invention are worthy of a patent, she didn't discover a new method. She applied an older discovery in a pointless way. Dump truck reach sorting centers, electro magnet catch iron cans, alu can are gravity dumped. The end.
Hopefully patent can be contested and revoked.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Patent offices will always check for prior art. In this case they did not find this design for the smaller scale, so they granted a patent. It is not only the magnet, but also the part of the bin that ensures that cans get separated out efficiently, like hole size, etc. The fact that it has been done on a grander scale is irrelevant here, because the design is different.

The fact that it exist in bigger size is everything: IT EXIST. boeing can't get a patent for the V22. They can get patent for tiltrotors. No matter if the design is used in a remote control toy or a 20tons aircraft. You patent technologies and applies them in different machines. If not, the patent for turbo used in a car would not be valid if used in a truck... Since you know... Trucks are bigger...

Patent issues are getting worse since the last 15-20 years, with the clusterfuck of software patents and the mind numbing blindness of office trying as hard as they can to ignore prior art.

The fact that this brainfart is from a 12yo and would make for a warm and fuzzy bullshit the locals enjoy so much to feast on might be the only reason a patent was awarded.
There is prior art and the application of the concept is evident.

Patents may seem trivial, in hindsight.

Good, so you admit yourself that it is invalid. You can't patent sonething obvious or trivial. Patent protect research and real discoveries. Not 12 yo plagiarized brainfarts.

But the fact that nobody thought about it before is rewarded. And it is very nice for that 12-year old girl, isn't it? I hope it will give a positive direction to her future life.

No, it's not that nobody thought about it, the idea to separate on the bin iron and alu is useless at best, wastefull from a logistic standpoint which make it in fine a stupid brainfart. And not even including half empty cans who would be to heavy to deviate with the magnet strenght only.
The only lesson for her would be to exploit credulity. Not all invention are worthy of a patent, she didn't discover a new method. She applied an older discovery in a pointless way. Dump truck reach sorting centers, electro magnet catch iron cans, alu can are gravity dumped. The end.
Hopefully patent can be contested and revoked.

Can she at least win the science fair? Anyway I thought you didn't believe in intellectual property rights so isn't the novelty of her invention a moot point as far as you're concerned?

[Coligny]

Yes, this is science fair level, not patent.

[matsuki]

I think what we have here is a rokaru solution to a rokaru problem. (like a color fax machine) Coligny is right that something like this isn't patent worthy and is totally unnecessary....if not for the Japanese insistence on consumers to separate this type of shit rather than do it where it's processed. (though I'm sure they do it there as well) I do, however, credit the girl for thinking outside the box here rather than the usual "this is just how it is, shoganai" mentality. Even if she wasn't the inventor of the concept, she deserves props.

Also:

[Samurai_Jerk]

I think what we have here is a rokaru solution to a rokaru problem. (like a color fax machine) Coligny is right that something like this isn't patent worthy and is totally unnecessary....if not for the Japanese insistence on consumers to separate this type of shit rather than do it where it's processed. (though I'm sure they do it there as well) I do, however, credit the girl for thinking outside the box here rather than the usual "this is just how it is, shoganai" mentality. Even if she wasn't the inventor of the concept, she deserves props.

Also:

I would take anything Penn says with a grain of salt. He self-identifies as an anarcho-capitalist.

[kurogane]

　　
I would take anything Penn says with a grain of salt. He self-identifies as an anarcho-capitalist.

I know lots of people that argue that it is cheaper to just make new stuff than to recycle but they are never able to answer what I think is a rather simple and pertinent question: does their calculation account for the decrease in resource extraction and more parsimonious or fuller use of extracted resources that recycling (I assume) promotes? That's an ethical matter more than an economic one, but I find the idea we should just use everything once and then chuck it out and make new stuff to be morally repugnant.

I like Penn and Teller but they remind me of a Michael Moore and Richard Dawkins love child. That hyperrational fundamentalism is as naive as fervent religious zeal; indeed, it is mostly a secular mirror of the same tendency.

[Coligny]

The cost of recycled aluminum is below 20% of the cost of bauxite made aluminum.
And it's 100% recyclable.

[Samurai_Jerk]

The cost of recycled aluminum is below 20% of the cost of bauxite made aluminum.
And it's 100% recyclable.

I've watched that episode before and they do say that recycling aluminum is cost effective. The focus is on the inefficiencies of recycling programs in the US. Of course being libertarians they say the problem is regulation.

[kurogane]

So theirs is an argument that it costs more in dollar terms because of inefficiencies? That still doesn't address the moral element I raised above. I think it is shameful to chuck out the crap we still chuck out, never mind going back to throwing everything out after one use. And it doesn't help that libertarians are usually naive bird brains, even the high IQ ones like these 2. I've met some really intelligent and articulate ones, but it's like talking to an entertaining God Squadder or a precocious 12 year old.

[Samurai_Jerk]

So theirs is an argument that it costs more in dollar terms because of inefficiencies? That still doesn't address the moral element I raised above. I think it is shameful to chuck out the crap we still chuck out, never mind going back to throwing everything out after one use. And it doesn't help that libertarians are usually naive bird brains, even the high IQ ones like these 2. I've met some really intelligent and articulate ones, but it's like talking to an entertaining God Squadder or a precocious 12 year old.

No they also make environmental arguments. It's been several years since I watched it so I can't remember all the details. One thing they claim is that it was largely a scam by big business to shift the cost of dealing with waste away from them and to the people through taxes and fees for garbage pick up. Libertarians do also hate corporate welfare. Consistency is one thing I'll give them points for. I think that they're a bunch of navel-gazers but I like their intellectual honesty. There's nothing worse than conservatives who rail against welfare and want to get tough on crime while pushing for corporate tax breaks and little or no regulation of business.

[kurogane]

Aha! I'll give it a proper watch then. I do hate his voice, but I'll tough it out. Good point about their consistency, and might I add sincerity. They're still 'Tards, but they are nice ones usually. The whole thing is such childish wankery I find it a touch exasperating. A lot like Israeli policy bashing internet conspiracy monkeys (not the crazed actual anti-semites, just the stupes and the dupes).

[dimwit]

A couple of related forum on this:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25388
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=23112

I don't think my view has changed at all. If poor people steal it, it has value. If they don't it is garbage.

[matsuki]

I too watched it years ago but like SJ said, they agreed that recycling aluminum was a worthy cause but most of the other stuff was wasted effort due to the costs, regulation, and that landfills were actually more environmentally friendly than the energy used to recycle the other shit into usable materials. The funniest shit is I drive by the Puente Hills landfill they mention/show in the video regularly when in LA...it looks 10000X better then the natural hills in the area and doesn't smell at all. I thought it was some sort of park for years.

BTW, the real Penn is fucking awesome individual: http://pennsundayschool.com/