Henry S Stokes flipflops on the 'Nanking Misunderstanding'

[Wage Slave]

No shortage of documentary evidence of what really happened. The body language of the civilians tells the story, the locals had no idea what they were going to see.

I never said the ordinary German people knew the extent of the horrors in the camps or even necessarily that they existed. Ordinary Japanese people had no idea of what the Japanese camps were like or even of their existence and I'm not even sure they know now. But you said that the German high command didn't know and never ordered them to kill people - They did, even if they deny it and even if crucial evidence has been destroyed.

I accept that as the war progressed they got worse and worse and the thing took on a life of its own, but they were deliberately and knowingly set up for a purpose and that purpose was obscene from the start.

You also seem to be conflating rather different camps. Bergen Belsen was set up for an entirely different evil purpose to Auschwitz. You can say events and conditions at Bergen spiralled out of control to some extent, but Auschwitz operated according to plan from the start right to the end, didn't it? That plan, the funding, the personnel and it's oversight came directly from the high command of the Nazi Party through a chain of command. Not everyone knew but a lot of people did and some ordered it.

[dimwit]

What nailed the Nazis with regard to the Holocaust was the mundane accounting of it all. Concentration camps kept excellent records of how many they killed, the amount of gold from teeth etc., all so that they could get bonuses for meeting quotas.

Interestingly, you don't find that with the Japanese atrocities, largely because they are of the spun out of control variety. A insubordinate junior officier orders a massacre of civilians because his unit took to many causalities here, a pissing match between the navy and the army there. The main problem being that the Japanese Imperial Army seemed to encourage mutiny by not punishing offenders.

[Russell]

No shortage of documentary evidence of what really happened. The body language of the civilians tells the story, the locals had no idea what they were going to see.

I never said the ordinary German people knew the extent of the horrors in the camps or even necessarily that they existed.

The existence of these camps was widely known outside Germany at the time, at least in the Netherlands. And most people were aware that those were not the places you wanted to end up in.

The German population would likely have known too. At the very least the people living near those camps could deduce something from the smell of burning corpses. The excuse "wir haben es nicht gewusst" just means they didn't want to know, not that they didn't know.

[Samurai_Jerk]

No shortage of documentary evidence of what really happened. The body language of the civilians tells the story, the locals had no idea what they were going to see.

Knowing something and being able to handle witnessing it first hand aren't the same thing. Most Americans support the death penalty and will say they're happy when they hear a murder has been executed. Not many of them could sit comfortably through an execution. Most people in the first world who eat meat can't watch an animal being slaughtered. I doubt things like Jew skin lamps were common knowledge. That doesn't mean people didn't know the camps were being used to exterminate people. Even if it's true, what's your point? It's not like the Germans were forced to suffer after WWII the way they were after WW I.

[kurogane]

They won't pull funding. They're far too hooked on more world cultural heritage sites being created in Japan and the consequent tourism. Pride and moneymaking will trump the nationalist tantrums.

Yes to that. Plus pulling funding might threaten the registered status of the Maizuru Diaries, and the upcoming candidate for the 2017 registration round.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/1 ... h7m7SvaRLM

SOME PERTINENT EXCERPTS
Tokyo argued that China was politicizing UNESCO and asked Beijing to withdraw the double nominations, which China refused to do, according to Japanese officials.
...............................................
One of the two sets of documents listed from Japan is a collection of some 570 memoirs, drawings and other items composed by Japanese inmates imprisoned in Siberian labor camps after the war, and lists of those repatriated afterward to Maizuru port in Kyoto. Roughly 55,000 of the nearly 600,000 Japanese soldiers detained in labor camps in Siberia and Mongolia after the war died from forced labor, severe living conditions and malnutrition.
.................
In the next registration phase in 2017, Japan will seek to list the records of diplomat Chiune Sugihara, who issued visas to help some 6,000 Jews flee Nazi persecution during WWII, as well as three ancient stone monuments and documents of Korean missions to Japan during the Edo Period.

It would seem that the Japanese have a stellar argument there. I have no doubt that records relating to Hiroshima and Nagasaki will be put forward as important evidence of the inhumanity of war and the suffering it brings, and also help to highlight the inadmissability of the Nanking records, as there is serious scholarly dispute over whether the number of fatalities was as high as 300,000 or as low as 286,000. THAT'S DIFFERENCE of 14,000, not to mention that some sources claim the massacre lasted 6 weeks while others put it at 5 weeks and 6 days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How can such glaring and vital inconsistencies be tolerated????

Can Japan get no justice!!???????????????

[matsuki]

They won't pull funding. They're far too hooked on more world cultural heritage sites being created in Japan and the consequent tourism. Pride and moneymaking will trump the nationalist tantrums.

Does anyone, besides Japanese, ever care/mention that shit? I've never once heard someone, that wasn't Japanese, boast about whatever being a "Sekaisan blah blah."

[wagyl]

It is mentioned every time ISIS takes one out, and I have a couple of friends from NZ coming by, both originally from South East Asia, who base their travel plans on World Heritage sites.

I do however agree that the Japanese attitude to it, both as consumer and as steward, is more "list of tourist sites" than "preservation of patrimony

Excuse me, but I am not convinced that Tomioka Silk Mill is important on a global scale. http://www.tomioka-silk.jp/hp/en/

[Samurai_Jerk]

It is mentioned every time ISIS takes one out, and I have a couple of friends from NZ coming by, both originally from South East Asia, who base their travel plans on World Heritage sites.

I do however agree that the Japanese attitude to it, both as consumer and as steward, is more "list of tourist sites" than "preservation of patrimony."

Yeah, I think it's pretty commonly used worldwide for promoting tourism.

[Takechanpoo]

even i started getting fed up with j-govs short-sighted inflexible attitude like a grumpy craftsman.
it definitely lacks merchant point of view.
it will conclusively fix the impression in the international society that j-side is no more than revisionism.
game over

[Mock Cockpit]

No shortage of documentary evidence of what really happened. The body language of the civilians tells the story, the locals had no idea what they were going to see.

I never said the ordinary German people knew the extent of the horrors in the camps or even necessarily that they existed.

The existence of these camps was widely known outside Germany at the time, at least in the Netherlands. And most people were aware that those were not the places you wanted to end up in.

The German population would likely have known too. At the very least the people living near those camps could deduce something from the smell of burning corpses. The excuse "wir haben es nicht gewusst" just means they didn't want to know, not that they didn't know.

Exactly. There's a fucking massive death camp within walking distance of your house and not only don't you know about it but nobody you know knows about it either? What a load of bullshit, don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining.

[Coligny]

Information do not flow that freely, especially during wartime especially concerning military operation.

Even today stuff are hidden in plain sight. Few people know, and the info do not propagate thanks to treason laws.

Paris have few communication hubs centralizing fiber optic dispatch for phone and internet. They are inside perfectly boring looking building using only few floors or basement. Also some road maps includes some "errors" much more difficult to "make" thanks to google map/sat but basically more than a few small roads and intersection that are deemed... Not necessary to be available as general public knowledge...
So, in the 40' with people more worried about allied air raids and what to eat for diner, just few phones and a general advice of minding your own business to makeit another day. Plus the lack of known precedent.
More than believable that nobody among the general populace knew.

[Yokohammer]

The Russian point of view ...

Japan politicizing UNESCO with Siberia prisoner files, Russia says

MOSCOW – A Russian government official has expressed opposition to the Memory of the World listing of Japanese files on the postwar internment of prisoners of war in Siberia, saying it is an act to politicize UNESCO just like what China did with its “Nanjing Massacre” documents, Russia’s RIA Novosti news service reported Wednesday ...

[matsuki]

bwaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha!

[Takechanpoo]

the documents of j-internment camps in north america, aussieland and the others should be as well
especially aussie one, uncivilized aussies kidnapped innocent japanese civilians to the camp and forcibly deported them to japan after WW2. in addition they somehow pretend to be poor victims in spite of the fact they unilateraly rose a hand against japan first. and most of contemporary aussies somewhat dont know or dont be teached those series of facts. on the other hand do remember j-bombing at darwin and bruma railway.
what a retarded state it is

[wagyl]

It is no secret, especially to those who grew up in multi-ethnic communities and who listen to the stories their parents and grandparents tell. http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/snapsh ... x#section7

Is this a secret? Is it widely known?

[legion]

No shortage of documentary evidence of what really happened. The body language of the civilians tells the story, the locals had no idea what they were going to see.

Knowing something and being able to handle witnessing it first hand aren't the same thing. Most Americans support the death penalty and will say they're happy when they hear a murder has been executed. Not many of them could sit comfortably through an execution. Most people in the first world who eat meat can't watch an animal being slaughtered. I doubt things like Jew skin lamps were common knowledge. That doesn't mean people didn't know the camps were being used to exterminate people. Even if it's true, what's your point? It's not like the Germans were forced to suffer after WWII the way they were after WW I.

If you brush over the expulsion, rape, partition of the country and death from starvation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%9350)

Just like the Japanese were victims of the military junta which took them into the war, the Germans were also victims of the Nazis. Collective punishment is always wrong.



The problem of a lack of a written order is highly relevant, it made prosecution by law laborious, with inevitable oversights. Not a few people suspected of involvement in the concentration camps evaded trial and moved elsewhere.

[legion]

Exactly. There's a fucking massive death camp within walking distance of your house and not only don't you know about it but nobody you know knows about it either? What a load of bullshit, don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining.

Hang on a minute, where's this?

[Samurai_Jerk]

No shortage of documentary evidence of what really happened. The body language of the civilians tells the story, the locals had no idea what they were going to see.

Knowing something and being able to handle witnessing it first hand aren't the same thing. Most Americans support the death penalty and will say they're happy when they hear a murder has been executed. Not many of them could sit comfortably through an execution. Most people in the first world who eat meat can't watch an animal being slaughtered. I doubt things like Jew skin lamps were common knowledge. That doesn't mean people didn't know the camps were being used to exterminate people. Even if it's true, what's your point? It's not like the Germans were forced to suffer after WWII the way they were after WW I.

If you brush over the expulsion, rape, partition of the country and death from starvation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%9350)

Just like the Japanese were victims of the military junta which took them into the war, the Germans were also victims of the Nazis. Collective punishment is always wrong.



The problem of a lack of a written order is highly relevant, it made prosecution by law laborious, with inevitable oversights. Not a few people suspected of involvement in the concentration camps evaded trial and moved elsewhere.

I don't count any of that and they're lucky they got off so easy. Plus anything that happened in Eastern Europe doesn't count.

[legion]

Or Ueno Station for that matter



There but for the grace of god go I

[Samurai_Jerk]

Starvation and homelessness were a result of the war but it wasn't part of some scheme to make the Japanese suffer. Plenty of the "winners" ended up in the same situation.

[legion]

Starvation and homelessness were a result of the war but it wasn't part of some scheme to make the Japanese suffer. Plenty of the "winners" ended up in the same situation.

So fire bombing every city except Kyoto wasn't intended to cause suffering on the civilian population?

Defeating the enemy by waging war on the civilian populace through bombings and blockades was a feature of both world wars. It is naive to think the effects of a war of attrition can be switched off by signing a peace treaty.

[Coligny]

Being at war without civilian support would not have been possible.

Making the civilian suffer to degrade moral and weaken support is a good move...

If the peons can't eat or sleep, they can't work... No new planes made, no bullets... And on and on...

[legion]

Being at war without civilian support would not have been possible.

Tony Blair managed it

[Samurai_Jerk]

Starvation and homelessness were a result of the war but it wasn't part of some scheme to make the Japanese suffer. Plenty of the "winners" ended up in the same situation.

So fire bombing every city except Kyoto wasn't intended to cause suffering on the civilian population?

Defeating the enemy by waging war on the civilian populace through bombings and blockades was a feature of both world wars. It is naive to think the effects of a war of attrition can be switched off by signing a peace treaty.

Who's talking about firebombing? If you're going to try to argue a point, stick to the topic. I don't think anyone would deny that the US targeted civilian populations. However, that doesn't mean there was a scheme to make the Japanese hungry and homeless after the war. But I'm sure you could have come up with a way to defeat Japan and Germany without inconveniencing a single civilian.

Being at war without civilian support would not have been possible.

Tony Blair managed it

Bullshit. Not having popular support doesn't mean there weren't civilians working to keep the military operating. If Iraq had the ability to destroy Britain's infrastructure, Britain wouldn't have been able to wage war.

[kurogane]

The orders for the Final Solution never explicitly stated a program of mass killing

What's next?!? Hitler the Jew hugger?

With all the recent revelations that have helped to clarify and rehabilitate the German dictator amongst his many intentional and unintentional fans, the latest news suggests that things are going the wrong way for Mr. Hilter's legacy. As if confirmation that he really only had one ball wasn't enough, now the shit has really hit the fan:

Adolf Hitler indulged in sickening sexual fetishes – and even forced his niece to act out his fantasies, according to claims in a US intelligence report
A psychological profile compiled by U.S. spies revealed the Fuhrer was a coprophiliac – someone who gets sexual pleasure from faeces.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3479951/Adolf-Hitler-indulged-sickening-sexual-fetishes-forced-niece-act-fantasies-according-claims-intelligence-report.html

Even with his fans on the internet working to clarify his legacy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n71bfKx8evs )..............and the tacit support of those well intentioned Israel BDS supporters this might just be one pile of poop too stinky even for Ole Blue Eyes.

[wagyl]

Before I give Daily Mail another click, so there any reason why this is news today?

[kurogane]

Before I give Daily Mail another click, so there any reason why this is news today?

It's probably the 7/3/16 thing. For the uninitiated, try writing it backwards and then forwards again, and then in that way Merkins write dates. Then add up the sum of each. REGARDLESS OF THE ORDER IN WHICH YOU DO THE SUMS THEY ALL RESULT IN THE SAME NUMBER

[wagyl]

OK, and with the additional material added in by your edit: yet another reason not to click on a Daily mail link. I have never been so insulted in my life! To think that they assume that I need to have a gloss before I can understand what coprophilia is!

On further investigation, it is now eighteen months since the last "Hilter and half-niece and excrement" expose in the Daily Mail. That is two whole gestation periods, if you get my thinking. In those two generations of infant births, mankind has lost the knowledge of what coprophilia is.

[kurogane]

I am not as up on the Daily Mail as some seem to be, but it's probably part of their greater propaganda project:

Hilter, Not The Loveable Man He's Made Out to Be?

Given the very existence of that youtube video I linked above (as a result of a "Hilter Jig" search) it seems a worthy public education project That Martin Amis related article you linked even went so far as to suggest that Hilter may have been insane ( ????) At any rate, another reason to rethink his legacy.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Japan withholds annual dues to UNESCO

Japan has withheld its annual UNESCO dues, saying it wants to make sure the U.N. body properly functions to foster trust among member nations.

Foreign Minister Fumio Kishida, asked by a reporter, confirmed that Japan withheld dues of 4 billion yen ($40 million) for this year. He refused to say if that was to protest UNESCO's listing last year of Chinese Rape of Nanking documents as a memory of the world.