'20% of residential areas in Japan will be ghost towns'

[wagyl]

http://www.fudousan.or.jp/system/?act=d&pref=14&type=14&n=100&s=n&p=2&v=on&bid=01286813&org=ZT

Pardon my posting skills, but who, the fuck, is going to pay almost a hundred grand for that?

You know you also pay for the land it's on, right?

It's the piece of crap on top of the land that's the problem.

That problem looks like it would be solved with a 100 yen investment in a lighter from the nearest convenience store.

Hayama is the site of one of three Imperial villas.* One needs some variety during one's summer.

* Will this be the first trackback to the Kunaicho site from FG?

[Wage Slave]

So it's worthless or actually reduces the value of the land a bit because of demolition costs. I don't know how much experience you have in the property market here but after about 25 years or so, even a better quality building in good condition has effectively no value. If you buy it you should only be paying the land price. In fact, you might try to negotiate a discount to contribute to demolition costs. If the building is clearly unusable then demolition cost will reduce the value of the land.

I have no idea what land prices in that area are like but given its size and access, 10 million may well be a reasonable asking price.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Hayama is one of the more upscale areas of Kanagawa.

[yanpa]

So it's worthless or actually reduces the value of the land a bit because of demolition costs. I don't know how much experience you have in the property market here but after about 25 years or so, even a better quality building in good condition has effectively no value. If you buy it you should only be paying the land price. In fact, you might try to negotiate a discount to contribute to demolition costs. If the building is clearly unusable then demolition cost will reduce the value of the land.

I've seen a decent plot of land to the west of Tokyo (-to, not 23-ku) on sale for way less than what I'd expected for the area, evidently due to the presence of a mid-Showa era dwelling made of rebar and concrete which would cost real money to remove.

Something else which factors into prices, and I'm not sure if this is a Tokyo thing only and can't be arsed to find out, is that dwellings with no direct road access cannot be rebuilt. So if you're happy with a renovated Showa shack with no parking and access via a narrow footpath, there are some bargains to be had.

[kurogane]

Judging by the timbers that house is re-doable. Those are shell on frame. And yes, circa 1955 sounds dubious. Probably the last significant rebuild.

[inflames]

Something else which factors into prices, and I'm not sure if this is a Tokyo thing only and can't be arsed to find out, is that dwellings with no direct road access cannot be rebuilt. So if you're happy with a renovated Showa shack with no parking and access via a narrow footpath, there are some bargains to be had.

That's all over. The standard thing to do in that situation is to simply leave one post standing and simply rebuild everything else.

[matsuki]

Something else which factors into prices, and I'm not sure if this is a Tokyo thing only and can't be arsed to find out, is that dwellings with no direct road access cannot be rebuilt. So if you're happy with a renovated Showa shack with no parking and access via a narrow footpath, there are some bargains to be had.

That's all over. The standard thing to do in that situation is to simply leave one post standing and simply rebuild everything else.

I dunno if it's only one post left required but if I ever bought here, that is sooo what I would do. I've seen some really old structures here completely redone and "modernized" and then there is the cost savings by doing that over buying a new(er) rabbit hutch with hardly any land.

[Samurai_Jerk]

So what's the logic of not allowing the rebuilding of houses without direct road access? And could you get around that if you managed to create that access?

EDIT: I did try a quick Google search in English but couldn't find an answer. However, I found this site which has some decent info in English about building laws here: http://www.alatown.com/japanese-building-law/

[matsuki]

That's a pretty rad site!

California codes are notoriously insane, Japan seems to be at the same level of insanity but with the added TIJ mentality and written in ways that are both open to interpretation and confusing. That being said, my friend that has built two home here said that when he found he had code violations AFTER building, he was only called out for not filing paperwork....no penalties either.

[kurogane]

I have no idea what land prices in that area are like but given its size and access, 10 million may well be a reasonable asking price.

For 700 sq.m in a urban/suburban/chotto inaka setting, ferschur. Plus you get the funky retro shack to doll up, assuming the foundation isn't rotten. That roof looks rather redoable, and the top windows of the shutter Amado doors aren't cracked or broken so it's likely not sagging. FG Clubhouse Hayama???? Koooollllllllllll

BINGO
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kamiy ... c5ecf8620c

Ummmm, .............inaka???? KInda cool, though, given the proximity to trains and planes with automobiles.

I dunno if it's only one post left required but if I ever bought here, that is sooo what I would do. I've seen some really old structures here completely redone and "modernized" and then there is the cost savings by doing that over buying a new(er) rabbit hutch with hardly any land.

Plus those older houses are way better built, and if salvageable much nicer to do up and doll up. It differs by region but they are usually rather easy to renovate to a modern layout and function because of the way they're built (roof on frame with walls, etc. added on). Look at how badly those late 90s Canadian 2x4 modular kit houses are ageing. The ones I see look like shit.

[matsuki]

I dunno if it's only one post left required but if I ever bought here, that is sooo what I would do. I've seen some really old structures here completely redone and "modernized" and then there is the cost savings by doing that over buying a new(er) rabbit hutch with hardly any land.

Plus those older houses are way better built, and if salvageable much nicer to do up and doll up. It differs by region but they are usually rather easy to renovate to a modern layout and function because of the way they're built (roof on frame with walls, etc. added on). Look at how badly those late 90s Canadian 2x4 modular kit houses are ageing. The ones I see look like shit.

Yep, the outer shell are the only load bearing walls (and the posts of course) so you have the freedom to remove the paper-thin excuses for inner walls, reinforce/insulate the structure, and then go to town.

[yanpa]

So what's the logic of not allowing the rebuilding of houses without direct road access?

I'm not entirely sure of the rationale, I suspect because all those little plots accessible down narrow footpaths are not a seen as a good idea when it comes to accessibility for firefighting purposes etcetera. Probably the idea was to encourage plots to be merged and reduce the density (and flammability) a bit, but all it seems to have done is render the inaccessible plots even more valueless and encourage the existing structures to be left in place (even if heavily "reformed"). Usually poky little 2DKs on 60~70m2 plots.

And could you get around that if you managed to create that access?

Presumably, though that would involve buying the plot(s) blocking access, unless the owners are kind enough to let you build a driveway through their house.

[kurogane]

Yep, the outer shell are the only load bearing walls (and the posts of course) so you have the freedom to remove the paper-thin excuses for inner walls, reinforce/insulate the structure, and then go to town.

But then it will be too hot in the summer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would pull out all the inner walls too, unless the room in question was at least 12 mats big. The old Gassho I lived in was all sliding doors inside so in summer I just pulled them all off and set 2 big floor fans at each end. It was quite lovely. It's not so humid up that high, mind. I bet that Hayama area gets pretty steamy in mid-summer.

[jingai]

What do you mean by too hot in the summer? Do you not use AC? All insulation does is slow down the rate of heat transfer between outdoors and indoors.

With insulation you might be able to coast through more of the day without AC if you open the windows and cool it down at night and then close it up during the day. With AC and heating this is moot as the indoor space is no longer really connected with the outdoor temperatures so the more insulation the better.

[Samurai_Jerk]

What do you mean by too hot in the summer? Do you not use AC? All insulation does is slow down the rate of heat transfer between outdoors and indoors.

With insulation you might be able to coast through more of the day without AC if you open the windows and cool it down at night and then close it up during the day. With AC and heating this is moot as the indoor space is no longer really connected with the outdoor temperatures so the more insulation the better.

That one went right over your head, didn't it?

[kurogane]

What do you mean by too hot in the summer? .

I makey jokey about the Japanese response to the idea of insulation. Other than that, yes, well put

[Russell]

Chinese outdoing the Japanese...

Ordos, China's Creepy Modern Ghost Town

Photographs of the Chinese city of Ordos reveal a stunning landscape: a futuristic city that languishes almost totally abandoned, as if its population had been abruptly raptured.

The images [...] depict a strange modern ghost town, a would-be utopia rapidly constructed for a population of one million that failed to materialize.

[...]

The city includes dormant schools, sports complexes, hospitals, convention centers, and other major facilities, all completed between 2005 and 2010. The Chinese building boom has seen many new cities become overnight metropolises, but Ordos City failed to replicate that success.

The city is now a surreal landscape of empty streets, decaying monuments, abandoned buildings and half-finished housing projects. It is more than anywhere the symbol of the Chinese Dream with all its challenges and contradictions, an Orwellian vision of a bright future caught up by a less flamboyant reality.

[...]

The city's residents (reportedly just 20,000 souls, or two percent of the total capacity) largely consist of construction crews, maintenance workers, and random employees.

More

[wuchan]

Chinese outdoing the Japanese...

Ordos, China's Creepy Modern Ghost Town

Photographs of the Chinese city of Ordos reveal a stunning landscape: a futuristic city that languishes almost totally abandoned, as if its population had been abruptly raptured.

The images [...] depict a strange modern ghost town, a would-be utopia rapidly constructed for a population of one million that failed to materialize.

[...]

The city includes dormant schools, sports complexes, hospitals, convention centers, and other major facilities, all completed between 2005 and 2010. The Chinese building boom has seen many new cities become overnight metropolises, but Ordos City failed to replicate that success.

The city is now a surreal landscape of empty streets, decaying monuments, abandoned buildings and half-finished housing projects. It is more than anywhere the symbol of the Chinese Dream with all its challenges and contradictions, an Orwellian vision of a bright future caught up by a less flamboyant reality.

[...]

The city's residents (reportedly just 20,000 souls, or two percent of the total capacity) largely consist of construction crews, maintenance workers, and random employees.

More

I have tried hard to out myself here on FG other than my car fetish. I don't skateboard, I was one of the people that showed them the way, to our detriment.

Skateboarding wasn't the first to exploit china's ghost towns, they were the first to get red bull and go pro o sponsor it.

[Samurai_Jerk]

I have tried hard to out myself here on FG other than my car fetish. I don't skateboard, I was one of the people that showed them the way, to our detriment.

Skateboarding wasn't the first to exploit china's ghost towns, they were the first to get red bull and go pro o sponsor it.

It's not just me, right?

[Coligny]

I have tried hard to out myself here on FG other than my car fetish. I don't skateboard, I was one of the people that showed them the way, to our detriment.

Skateboarding wasn't the first to exploit china's ghost towns, they were the first to get red bull and go pro o sponsor it.

It's not just me, right?

why do Kamaz in the mainframe of plural aircraft carriers shall we your mom ?

I can totally potato the stone in that lightning bolt screw. you should typewriter more often if you want to swim in the wool...

[Russell]

I have tried hard to out myself here on FG other than my car fetish. I don't skateboard, I was one of the people that showed them the way, to our detriment.

Skateboarding wasn't the first to exploit china's ghost towns, they were the first to get red bull and go pro o sponsor it.

It's not just me, right?

why do Kamaz in the mainframe of plural aircraft carriers shall we your mom ?

I can totally potato the stone in that lightning bolt screw. you should typewriter more often if you want to swim in the wool...

Yep Coligny, it's probably something cultural we Yuroppeans don't understand...

[MrUltimateGaijin]

Do any of you chaps/chapettes live in a pre 1981 manshon? Any thoughts on the matter?

[Wage Slave]

Do any of you chaps/chapettes live in a pre 1981 manshon? Any thoughts on the matter?

No. And wouldn't want to. But then I wouldn't want to live in a new manshon either. A house all the way please.

Earthquake resistance would be based on regulations/standards developed in 1950. Double no thanks.

[Coligny]

The bunker is pre 81 code. (Minibunker is post 81)

Gonna take more than a quake to damage both...

Your mileage may vary if the architect was not your brother in law...

[Wage Slave]

The bunker is pre 81 code. (Minibunker is post 81)

Gonna take more than a quake to damage both...

Your mileage may vary if the architect was not your brother in law...

And may vary more if the person building the thing was a property developer/speculator type.

[matsuki]

Do any of you chaps/chapettes live in a pre 1981 manshon? Any thoughts on the matter?

The one I'm in isn't relatively terrible and despite being somewhat remodeled, the rent is very reasonable for what it is. While the windows/external doors are really shitty/drafty, I honestly can't hear the neighbors or those below or above me. The kitchen and senmenjo are also hobbit sized but all these issues are fairly easily overcome with a proper remodel. That being said, the lack of an elevator and the narrow stairs are not something I'm a fan of and aren't something that can be added/altered.

I'm in the middle of sourcing windows and such for a current build and I'm actually surprised how reasonable some of the pricing is for newer, dual pane windows with the "typhoon proof" outer glass. It's the mark-up and easy as fuck labor that makes these upgrades unreasonable.

[kurogane]

Do any of you chaps/chapettes live in a pre 1981 manshon? Any thoughts on the matter?

No. And wouldn't want to. But then I wouldn't want to live in a new manshon either. A house all the way please..

The funny thing is that shack in Hayama would likely be more resilient than anything more recent, even allowing for the revisions to the building code. I remember watching all the postwar era houses disappear in my neighbourhood in Kyoto only to get replaced by rigid 2x4 or those weird foam stucco on steel frame things and thinking that the second floor was just waiting to crash into the first if a big shaker hit. Not that I hope that happens, naturally.

[matsuki]

Yeah, design with purpose vs. design by clueless.

I still like how in 2015, the solution for sealing up those over-sized AC wall holes is basically clay. Classy!!

[Samurai_Jerk]

The funny thing is that shack in Hayama would likely be more resilient than anything more recent, even allowing for the revisions to the building code.

I've heard people say that before and have even heard that the older houses did better in the Kobe quake than newer ones. However, that seems to be a kind of urban legend because everything I've ever read says different.

One in five of the buildings in the worst-hit areas were completely destroyed (or rendered uninhabitable). About 22% of the offices in Kobe's central business district were rendered unusable, and over half of the houses in that area were deemed unfit to live in. High rise buildings that were built after the modern 1981 building code suffered little; however, those that were not constructed to these standards suffered serious structural damage. Most of the older traditional houses had heavy tiled roofs which weighed around 2 tons, intended to resist the frequent typhoons that plagued Kobe, but they were only held up by a light wood support frame. When the wood supports gave way, the roof crushed the unreinforced walls and floors in a pancake collapse. Newer homes have reinforced walls and lighter roofs to avoid this, but are more susceptible to typhoons.

Also ...

Although most of the buildings that had been constructed according to new building codes withstood the earthquake, many others, particularly older wood-frame houses, did not.

And ...

Most of the deaths and injuries occurred when older wood-frame houses with heavy clay tile roofs collapsed. Note that homes and buildings are designed to be very strong in the vertical direction because they must support their own static weight. On the other hand, buildings can be very susceptible to horizontal ground motion.

Furthermore, many of the structures in Kobe built since 1981 had been designed to strict seismic codes. Most of these buildings withstood the earthquake. In particular, newly built ductile-frame high rise buildings were generally undamaged.

[Coligny]

Yeah, design with purpose vs. design by clueless.

I still like how in 2015, the solution for sealing up those over-sized AC wall holes is basically clay. Classy!!

At least clay harden. The playdoh they use is just a magnet for dead bug and soot...
Plus when you get that stuff on yout hands good luck getting them clean...