Japans military compared

[japslapper]

What with Japans miliray being in the news quite a lot lately I am interested to know how Japans military stands compared to other nations militaries.

Dollars spent and number of soldiers, aircraft technology etc is one feature (perhaps US no1 Jp No.2?) but how about training man for man(UK no 1...Japan no 50?)
How does one go about ranking a military? ........

[leathernick]

Wow, thax for the insight, ultra. I WAS in the military and I WAS in okinawa and I never thought that jpn's military was that well funded.

[GuyJean]

Or maybe they think no-nukes means no military.

This is my opinion, but I'm sure Japan has 'the bomb'.. Why wouldn't they? Because the government promised never to repeat the atrocities witnessed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Come on.... They just don't want it to happen again.. IN JAPAN!

Remember - this is the Japanese government we're talking about; a less transparent system than the US, ruling a more gullible public.. Think about what the US gets away with, then multiply it by no 'checks and balances'.

Just an opinion, but it's mine.. And you can't have it.

GJ

[japslapper]

Thanx for that folks

What about J-military compared to others in the man for man stakes?

Quality is ..also important.

Of the worlds "regular forces" the British Royal Marines are ,apparently, the best trained in the world -and best buddies with the US marines - although with only 3000 of them doesnt count for much....

a troop of 30 Royal Marines - how many J-troops could they take on?

What about sub crews?/fighter pilots? etc....

[japslapper]

Thankyou ultra....

I see the J-military ranks high on quality of gear (thanxs to suporting the US ecconmy ) ....but someway to catch up with quality of manpower - they need experience. Japan seems to be some way from catching up the NATOs 4 major players....but I wonder if it has ambitions....

[bejiita]

You can always check out the CIA's World Factbook. Interesting to note that North Korea spends 33.90% of their GDP on their military.

Soldier availability rankings here.

[bejiita]

Yeah, the availability figures just seem to reflect the male population age range listed, and not active soldiers on duty. I wonder how many people would actually serve if drafted.

Maybe I'll waste some time here on what the U.S. government thinks of Japan and other countries.

[bejiita]

Air Force: Japan Air Self-Defense Force (JASDF)

Active - 44,200
331 total combat aircraft including
2 fighter/ground attack squadrons with 40 F-I and 20 F-4EJ
10 fighter squadrons with 160 F-15J/DJ and 50 F-4EJ
supporting air-defense guns and missiles

First off, their air force fighters look decrepit to me. But I wonder if they're actually counting more on the U.S. lending a helping hand in this department.

Now this survey question is priceless.

Q5 What would you do if Japan were invaded by another country? Choose one of the following.

(6.1) (a) I would fight by joining the Self-Defense Forces.
(42.8 ) (b) I would support the Self-Defense Force in some way.
(2.0) (c) I would resist through guerrilla warfare.
(20.5) (d) I would resist in a non-violent way.
(8.7) (e) I would not resist at all.
(1.4) Other ( )
(18.5) Don't know

Where's the "I'm getting the f*ck outta the country" option?

[Nagged]

Japan has a rather good defence force (please forget Japan becoming a major military power in the near future, they do not have the right types or numbers of weapons to project power overseas), certainly enough to make people abroad sit up and take notice. Their troops are reasonably well trained (although they have not fought in 60 odd years) and yes, they do have some good - excellent equipment, some from the United States military, some made at home.

As for serving in Iraq, the JSDF do have lots of experience in assisting with emergency situations such as natural disasters etc so they could make a significant contribution in putting Iraq's infrastructure on it's feet again, but defending themselves against suicide bomers and ambushes is an entirely different scenario. The US (and some other coalition countries) have far more experience and they are not doing well at all...Even worse, they will most likely be shackled by needless or unrealistic directives from back home.

[Nagged]

a troop of 30 Royal Marines - how many J-troops could they take on?

What about sub crews?/fighter pilots? etc....

Royal Marines....certainly not people to pick a fight with, but how well they perform depends on a lot of factors. Good intelligence, special training, location, weapons, tatics...the list goes on.

I don't know about any specials forces in the JSDF but I have no doubt they exist and are highly trained, probably getting very good support from the US military and I'm also sure that there are numerous scenarios for joint operations. I do know they train together on occasions, (the USM is very big on training with their allies), there are some other FG on this board who I am sure could give us more details.

Fighter pilots and sub crews? Again, I can't comment from lack of hard facts. I'd say they are likely well trained (for what can be expected from lack of real combat experience) on the premise that the selection process would be quite stringent. In any case, the training of both fighter pilots and sub crews will definitely be better than general training for regular enlistment.

The SSKs (diesel subs) that maritime forces have are quite good for their purpose which is protection of shipping lanes and coastal defence.

[Watcher]

Why is the SDF now putting boots on the ground? I mean for years they have funded other boots to fight for them... so why now? Well as has been said, they haven't fought in some near 60 years and we've seen their handling of natural disasters (Kobe was made worse by some of their decisions). Look at their training (at least what they show us) with a man lying prostrate on a big empty field while they come hupping in to rescue the 'injured' all calm. Now compare this to the S. Koreans and their sick special police who repel down buildings and stadiums and take on shrieking protestors. The hardest these Japanese face seem to be bozozoku and drunks. None of this is real now amounts to anything. We got ourselves the best equipped, least experienced, spoiled brats. The top brass know this having heard of the trials their forefathers went through and having witnessed incredible ineptitude time and again. What these men and women need is real life smoky, possibly toxic, fumes and panic, real sheer terror, surrounding them. Anybody catch the latest Tokyo earthquake drill? It featured about 200 calm people running through a maze of streets with a sign posted of simulated dangers so they had to turn around. There were no fires, no buildings crumbling or precipices about to fall, no gas leaks nor electrical lines down, and no panic which would be evident if Tokyo were hit by the Big One. This is what the SDF needs training in. Rescue Ops in realistic disaster zones. Danger that is real and present. Training in taking initiative when things go wrong. Toughening up.
And that's why I think they're going. Screw the nukes talk... these boys would melt in a land invasion. The N. Koreans would kick their sorry plump butts just by way of their mental strength and hardcore attitudes.
Maybe I'm talking way out my ass but.... hey does anyone know any SDF who could tell me where to stick it?

[Nagged]

I'd agree that the JSDF definitely need some real word experience but I also think that some of the training we see on television is toned down. I couldn't imagine the entire JSDF being as inept as they often made to appear.

Unfortunately the JSDF has long been considered a pariah by the majority of the post war population and they often go all out to show themselves as anything but a military force. Regarding Kobe, bad policy by bureaucrat types would be where I would lay the blame.

Going by what I see from civilian agencies - fire fighters, search and rescue, etc., I can say that the training seems quite effective and very much based on hands-on experience.

does anyone know any SDF who could tell me where to stick it?

There is a base of the 10th Army Division not far from where I live...I could scout around the local watering holes and make a few new friends, but like I said, there are a few FG here who can tell you first hand of their own experiences with the JSDF.

[Socratesabroad]

As someone who has trained with the JGSDF and made a few acquaintances with the JASDF, I'll offer this.

1) Japan does have 'elite' ground forces in the form of Ranger battalions and Ranger-qualified personnel. Like their US counterparts, they are comparable to the paratroops or highly trained regiments in other countries, but they would not, in my opinion, rival the 'hard-core' elites like SF or SAS. They are not the equivalent of the ROK rangers, who qualify to me as 'hard-core.'

2) At the same time, the regular ground troops are rather average. Their tanks (domestic models) and aircraft (slightly older F15s and a few newer models) are decent, but the small arms are really dated.

3) Training. The air force guys seem well trained and speak a modicum of English, which would be vital if support or coordinated operations were planned. But the ground troops speak little English and just don't have anywhere near the field time that their Western counterparts do.

4) Reserves. Yes, Japan has a reserve system akin to that in the West, but many Japanese may not even know of it. Worse, you pretty much have to be prior service to begin with, so actual reserve forces are really limited in number and training.

Man-for-man, I'd put my money on the Japanese police vs. the JGSDF. Their koban image aside, they probably have more actual hand-to-hand and weapons training on a regular basis.

[GuyJean]

Why is the SDF now putting boots on the ground? I mean for years they have funded other boots to fight for them... so why now?

No shiiitte. You really think they're going to actually DO anything in Iraq?! I bet they dig a safe hole, barracade it with contrete, wired fence and land mines, then hide for 6 months, just to say they went. I envision them getting in the way more than helping.. I'm sure they've packed enough authentice Japanese rice though.. (Experience new culture in safety living!)

Remember: in Japan it's not what you do, it's what you look like when you do.

(Tatemae is only skin deep and tends to fade with age and/or intelligence)

GJ

[Nagged]

GuyJean, I don't think you can really blame them for wanting to stay alive, in any case they're of no use to anyone if they're dead. They would definitely be of a lot more use in less dangerous circumstances (yes, I know this sounds ridiculous considering who we are talking about, I'm to trying to be realistic)...fat chance of that happening any time soon in Iraq, but the reason they are being sent is purely to show how committed Japan is to assisting the coalition forces after Japan was branded as a bunch of parasites during and after the Gulf War. Really, I think it's a bit of no-win situation, they can't do anything much more than protect themselves in any conflict, the best they can do is assist and stay out of trouble.

How can they help out? I don't know what their orders will entail, I'd say that helping out in a logistcal context (supply) would be something where they do something useful, obviously patroling the streets and keeping order has a lot more chance of some of their members getting killed. One thing that I have considered is that the Maritime forces could help out in some areas without the same risk that land or air forces will encounter, providing they send the right kinds of ships.

But seriously, I don't think the JSDF is going to Iraq to any real fighting. Give them a realistic mission and assign them to a low intensity area (I don't think there is anywhere that is really safe in Iraq) is best for all concerned. Perhaps send them to Kuwait or just within the border instead...?

Socrates, thank you very much for your information. Not surprising that their special forces exist but do not match some of the more elite forces. Also. it hardly comes as a shock that the JASDF are better trained than the JGSDF, that's where the money is. Same probably applies to the JMSDF, this seems to be the pattern for most military forces.

Regarding your comment about the JSDF vs. the police, yes, I think this could well be the case with police in the major cities here versus the JSDF as a whole. There is no substitute for throwing people in the deep end and the police get to deal with crap on a day-to-day basis

[GuyJean]

GuyJean, I don't think you can really blame them for wanting to stay alive, in any case they're of no use to anyone if they're dead.

Yeah. I know.. I was being a little harsh. I guess they'll help out by being decoys for the US soldiers..

No, but in all seriousness, they have to learn somewhere, and I suppose it should be in a conflict that wasn't really necessary. Instead of a place where they're probably more needed, like Afghanistan.

GJ

[kami gaijin]

I can't really comment intelligently one their capabilities because I haven't researched it; but I can say one thing:
The fact that no one has every engaged them in combat since their creation itself makes them dangerous, because there is no standard to analyze. Never engage an enemy unless you know their strengths and weaknesses. You could be fighting a tiger or a kitten, but you won't know until the first cut is made.
Underestimation is the most devastating weapon ever fielded in combat.

[GomiGirl]

[quote="kami gaijin"]I can't really comment intelligently one their capabilities because I haven't researched it]

Very sage advise kami-sama..

I once had dinner with a purchasing officer for the SDF. It was a group dinner and I seemed to be seated next to him. He alluded to the next purchases he was making for fighter jets for the navy. Methinks that the SDF are closer to tigers than kittens, very well funded and trained.

The govt are probably itching to proove this fact by changing the constitution to allow the troops to go strut their stuff. But as a big unknown is no doubt a good tactic. NK just don't know what their would be up against so hesitate to do anything other than rattle the sabre.

[kami gaijin]

If I had to make a guess, I too would say they are very formidable. I mean, if they can keep godzilla at bay for the last couple of decades...

[Nagged]

KG & GG, you are both right in saying that underestimating an enemy is dangerous. This has been true since ancient times, still applies today and will do so for the forseeable future also.

Changing the subject, I have a very bad feeling that Iraq is going to continue to be a major challenge for keepers of the peace, native and foreign alike. Both cilvilian and military personnel, they deserve our respect, even if their political masters do not.

[Big Booger]

I drive by a SDF compound daily on my jaunt to work..

Most of the time they are running, playing soccer, or cleaning LOL

I sometimes see them playing with a helicopter, or moving equipment...

But surprisingly, they look very small.. compared to US troops.

[Nagged]

I sometimes see them playing with a helicopter, or moving equipment...

Let's not forget you need roughly ten support troops for every guy actuallly in the field.

[Caustic Saint]

I sometimes see them playing with a helicopter, or moving equipment...

Let's not forget you need roughly ten support troops for every guy actuallly in the field.

Do you need more than ten if the support guys are little?

[Nagged]

Do you need more than ten if the support guys are little?

Have something like this in mind?

[GuyJean]

But surprisingly, they look very small.. compared to US troops.

Smara taget mean smara taget, Kimoslabe-san... The Vietnamese were pretty small. He, he. But they also had hatred behind their fighting..

You really think Japan's military should be feared in a region where the local people have only known fighting, death, killing, and dying from starvation for the past 30 years? Yeah, maybe you're right]http://www.davidslife.com/journal/archives/000236.php[/url]

Too scents.

GJ

[Nagged]

We are the knights who say... Ne!.... Now, bring us a shrubbery!

[Alcazar]

Plus, NK has the best meth around.. Ever seen someone fighting on meth? Think Monty Python.. - http://www.davidslife.com/journal/archives/000236.php

Holy shit, the North Korean's give drugs to their troops? Does that just make them really aggressive and less prone to fear in battle? Damn.......

[GuyJean]

Holy shit, the North Korean's give drugs to their troops?

Actually, I don't know.. I've heard that most of the meth on the street in Japan comes from North Korea.. If I were a maniacle dictator, paranoid of the outside world and ruling millions of starving people who worship me, I'd give my soldiers a little speed now and then]Does that just make them really aggressive and less prone to fear in battle? Damn....... [/quote]
Prolonged use of meth turns people into pure evil; fearless, irritable evil..

Well, back to the subject.. Don't let my negativity about the SDF rub you the wrong way; I respect any service person putting themselves in harms way in an attempt to improve situations.. I hope the situation in Iraq improves with Japan's help.


GJ