My Number

[matsuki]

PR failure: Matsuki is more on top of pop culture than I am, but doesn't know about マイナちゃん

Just the name for that makes me think it would be a jailbaitish mascot, which knowing Japan means it's either an 8 year old girl prancing around in bikini/underwear or a 115kg transvestite.

[Russell]

I am confused.

It seems that you can take a picture of yourself and send it to the government agency that administers the my-number system.

Is this picture obligatory?

[wagyl]

If you want the card, similar to the zairyu card, it needs a photo and it is necessary. At this stage, the card itself is not necessary. Who knows what the future brings with that one, though.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Two guys in different prefectures (Kagawa and Nagano) got the same number. Apparently because they have the same birth date and their names have the same reading. No way anyone could have foreseen that happening.

Story in Japanese

[wagyl]

Reading that news report, it looks like the problem originated with the Juminhyou code.

I certainly hope the My Number number is created based on the reading of your name and the birthdate. Or based on the Juminhyou code for that matter although this suggests that last option might be the case.

[Grumpy Gramps]

Wifey was quite jealous, when I got my My Number before she got hers. But then it was OK as she didn't get no My Number at all. After the baa-chans at the variety shows said that now everyone has received their My Number, wifey called it in and eventually got hers, too. Just forgotten about her, they have.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Reading that news report, it looks like the problem originated with the Juminhyou code.

I certainly hope the My Number number is created based on the reading of your name and the birthdate. Or based on the Juminhyou code for that matter although this suggests that last option might be the case.

Right. It came from the juminhyou code which is created based on the reading of your name and your birth date.

[wagyl]

Right. It came from the juminhyou code which is created based on the reading of your name and your birth date.

Wikipedia seems to say that the juminhyou code is not based on any information, just that the numbers are allocated to municipalities from a central authority. This should prevent duplication.

What happened in this case is that guy A moved into a new municipality, Nagano city. For some reason, his juminhyou at his old address had been erased four years ago, so he was admitted under the procedures for "those of previously no fixed address." Then, a worker in Nagano went beyond his authority/tried to be helpful/make an error, and looked up the global jukinet listing and found someone he thought was the match, guy B, and used that juminhyou code.

When My Number was set up, the municipalities sent in bulk data of their juminhyou so that My Numbers (the grammar is getting tortuous) could be issued. No check was made for duplicates, because duplicates are impossible™. The Nagano data ended up being applied to both of the My Numbers, so the guy with the correct name had the wrong address and the guy with the wrong name had the right address.

If there is an error with My Number, then it is in not having a duplicate check. The error occurred in the old system (not to say that some municipal clerk can't do it again in the new system though).

This does raise one issue though: what is the benefit of a My Number over the old Juminhyou code? Why does an eleven digit number incorporating a checksum digit need to have another digit added to it?
(I just looked at my numbers. There is not any immediately obvious connection between the 11 digit Juminhyou code and the 12 digit My Number. There must be an algorithm which generates the My Numbers from the Juminhyou codes, if that is the case.)

[Samurai_Jerk]

That's what I get for only reading the first paragraph

So I guess the assumption was that since it was supposedly impossible to duplicate a juminhyo code there was no reason to check for duplicate My Numbers.

[Russell]

It would become really funny if the person with the same my-number dies.

Must create quite a confusion for the 'crats...

[Grumpy Gramps]

The surviving person would be happy to get the full pension, they surely had to share it 50/50 as long as both of them are alive?

[legion]

So Yahoo news is reporting that the sales of safes are going up because of minus interest rates, people will keep their money at home rather than in the bank where they think they will be charged.

I call bullshit. People are trying to keep their money off the My Number radar

http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20160229-00000055-san-bus_all

[FG Lurker]

If governments are serious about having negative interest rates on bank accounts they will have to discontinue cash to make it happen. If all money is electronic they can deduct "interest" from all balances that aren't spent.

[Coligny]

If governments are serious about having negative interest rates on bank accounts they will have to discontinue cash to make it happen. If all money is electronic they can deduct "interest" from all balances that aren't spent.

and gold...

and forex...

Then pretty quick the national currency is replaced by euro or USD for trade amongst the locals like in any central african banana dictatorship...

They might be stupid enough to try it anyway... Can't wait to pay my fuel in pokemoan cards...

[Wage Slave]

If governments are serious about having negative interest rates on bank accounts they will have to discontinue cash to make it happen. If all money is electronic they can deduct "interest" from all balances that aren't spent.

On the contrary they will likely have to increase the amount of cash available to meet increased demand. Money held in a bank and money held as cash are too totally different things. You can perfectly well apply a negative interest rate to the former whilst the other goes its own merry way. To avoid the cost (as it would become) of keeping money in the bank people may well opt to hold more cash. There are disadvantages to that though. Cash can be lost, stolen or consumed in a fire or other event and protecting effectively against those risks doesn't come cheap. People aren't always logical or very good at accurately assessing costs and risks though.

[wagyl]

You do realise that the whole negative interest thing is for new deposits only, made by banks to the central bank, with the express intention of making those banks lend money to borrowers rather than park it in the central bank. It is a firm way to say "we don't want your money, we want you to lend it out and stimulate the economy. In fact, we want that so much that we don't even want to hold on to your money while you think about it."

If you try to read anything more into it, you are going to start to make some very strange decisions. No need to go all Weimar Republic yet.

[Wage Slave]

Yes, I do realise that. It was the subject of some discussion on the Abenomics thread. Nevertheless, people are drawing (rightly or wrongly) the conclusion that negative interest rates for deposits in retail banks may not be too far away so are making arrangements to store more cash. it may happen - It will send a strong message to people - The bank doesn't want your money - please go out there and spend it.

BTW, it's exactly the opposite problem to the Weimar Republic is it not? That was spiralling Inflation with people spending money as quickly as they possibly could. Here people are being prodded to lend or spend their money instead of holding it.

[wagyl]

If people come to the view that the value of their money will reduce if they keep it as money, they will spend it as soon as they get it. In that way, it resembles the actions people took during the Weimar Republic hyperinflation.

[Wage Slave]

If people come to the view that the value of their money will reduce if they keep it as money, they will spend it as soon as they get it. In that way, it resembles the actions people took during the Weimar Republic hyperinflation.

But in this case the whole problem is that too few people want to spend money - Many desire to hoard it. It's the exact opposite situation to the Weimar Republic. If, at some point, they are charged for doing that in an effort to prod them into spending (or lending to someone who will), then more people will choose to take their money out of the banks and keep (note not spend) it in cash. That will of course still be free of charge.

Rather than abolish cash as suggested above, they will be forced to increase the supply of cash as people seek to avoid negative interest rates. Either that or face a shortage of cash restricting people's ability to spend which runs counter to the whole object of having negative interest rates in the first place.

Anyway, it won't work in my opinion because the problem is a misallocation of resources and I don't think negative interest rates will do anything much to cure that. It might well even make it worse.

[legion]

You do realise that the whole negative interest thing is for new deposits only, made by banks to the central bank, with the express intention of making those banks lend money to borrowers rather than park it in the central bank. It is a firm way to say "we don't want your money, we want you to lend it out and stimulate the economy. In fact, we want that so much that we don't even want to hold on to your money while you think about it."

If you try to read anything more into it, you are going to start to make some very strange decisions. No need to go all Weimar Republic yet.

I think most people in Japan have heard this too. However they also know that the basic model in this country is to hoard the benefit and pass on the burden, so they probably expect to be screwed somehow as a result. Once upon a time banks really needed retail depositors, now the central bank gives out so much money the retail customer is more or less a burden whose only function is to justify the banks' existence. So though it seems irrational there is an instinctive motivation to have cash somewhere other than the bank.

I'm still pretty sure buying safes has more to do with My Number than My Nus, My Number will make it a lot easier for the tax man to link people's bank accounts and put the squeeze on all the little tax evaders. However the common folk can see the government is turning the screws and having a pile of cash to hand is probably a good idea, despite the risk. When granny dies the tax man can't remotely freeze the lock on the safe.

[wagyl]

I'm still pretty sure buying safes has more to do with My Number than My Nus, My Number will make it a lot easier for the tax man to link people's bank accounts and put the squeeze on all the little tax evaders. However the common folk can see the government is turning the screws and having a pile of cash to hand is probably a good idea, despite the risk. When granny dies the tax man can't remotely freeze the lock on the safe.

Since bank interest rates are so low, people will not be withdrawing money from banks to avoid paying tax on interest income, so the only reason to keep money in cash to keep it off the books and avoid tax liabilities is if they are paid in cash in the first place. The only class of person who will be able to get away with undocumented cash transactions is the sole proprietor tradesman supplying the consumer market -- everyone else will either have paperwork or their customers will want paperwork for the very generous expenses they can claim as deductions from business income. That is not a large class of people in this country so I don't think your My Number theory floats.

[legion]

There are a lot of small and medium businesses in Japan, and they all fiddle their taxes.

There is also a huge problem with back handers, especially for freelancers. An agency outsources work and the person doing the outsourcing demands a back hander, in cash, each month.

Then there is mizu shobai, big industry, very loosely documented, all those young mamas claiming benefit and working nights.

[FG Lurker]

You do realise that the whole negative interest thing is for new deposits only, made by banks to the central bank, with the express intention of making those banks lend money to borrowers rather than park it in the central bank. It is a firm way to say "we don't want your money, we want you to lend it out and stimulate the economy. In fact, we want that so much that we don't even want to hold on to your money while you think about it."

If you try to read anything more into it, you are going to start to make some very strange decisions. No need to go all Weimar Republic yet.

It's not even necessarily for new central bank deposits, it's only for central bank deposits that go over a certain amount. It's a very small move to have made but it is substantial in the direction it shows the BOJ to be thinking.

[FG Lurker]

If governments are serious about having negative interest rates on bank accounts they will have to discontinue cash to make it happen. If all money is electronic they can deduct "interest" from all balances that aren't spent.

and gold...
and forex...

Gold (and other precious metals) would present a problem but forex wouldn't. All electronically held balances would have interest deducted automatically.

For now it is purely hypothetical as the gov't is nowhere near implementing negative rates on savings accounts.

[FG Lurker]

If governments are serious about having negative interest rates on bank accounts they will have to discontinue cash to make it happen. If all money is electronic they can deduct "interest" from all balances that aren't spent.

On the contrary they will likely have to increase the amount of cash available to meet increased demand. Money held in a bank and money held as cash are too totally different things. You can perfectly well apply a negative interest rate to the former whilst the other goes its own merry way. To avoid the cost (as it would become) of keeping money in the bank people may well opt to hold more cash.

You have missed my point. Cash would have to be eliminated for negative rates to have any economic impact (with regards to encouraging spending.) If all transactions are electronic then all money is held in electronic balances (prepaid cards, bank accounts, etc), and negative interest could be deducted from *all* balances that are held longer than X amount of time. Allowing people to use paper money would completely defeat the point of negative rates as it would only encourage people to move their already horded money from one place (bank) to another (mattress).

[dimwit]

The idea of a cashless society may be fine and good for places like Tokyo and Osaka, but even in Matsuyama the number of places that accept credit of debit cards is limited. Furthermore, the elderly are extremely unlikely to ever accept not having cash. And when you consider that the elderly and the countryfolk are the backbone of LDP support it ain't gonna happen in my lifetime.

[FG Lurker]

The idea of a cashless society may be fine and good for places like Tokyo and Osaka, but even in Matsuyama the number of places that accept credit of debit cards is limited. Furthermore, the elderly are extremely unlikely to ever accept not having cash. And when you consider that the elderly and the countryfolk are the backbone of LDP support it ain't gonna happen in my lifetime.

I haven't said it will happen, and in fact have said that it won't happen. All I have said is that if Japan (or any country) wants to actually force negative interest rates on bank deposits then they would have to remove cash as part of that.

That said, if an elderly person can manage with an ATM they would manage to pay at the store with their debit card instead. The elderly may be slow at the ATM (frustratingly so) but most of them seem to muddle through, even in the country.

[wagyl]

オレオレagree.

[FG Lurker]

オレオレagree.

Indeed.

[chibaka]

Found this on Shinsei's web site... Abe's stasi want to monitor people spending their own cash when on holiday too?

From January 2016, when opening a Powerflex account, customers who wish to use the international cash service (e.g. withdrawals at overseas ATMs) or the overseas remittance service are required to notify their "My Number" in advance.