12 dead in Paris shooting

[Wage Slave]

Ever since 9/11 and even before that, we have had 2nd/3rd generation immigrant kids in schools cheering and celebrating as news of any terrorist attack breaks, and people shouting "Allah Ackbar" during moments of silence and purposefully causing other disturbances just to upset the locals.

Very strange place you live in - unrecognisable to me and indeed to Russell when you tried to assert this kind of nonsense as fact before.

Meanwhile TV reports here show masses of immigrants in the Place de la Bourse protesting and condemning terrorism as well as showing solidarity with the Belgian people rather than celebrating the attack.

[Tsuru]

The first time I heard about things like this happening was just after 9/11 on the radio, and after every major event there are the same reports of kids in certain neighborhoods disrupting memorial services and moments of silence both in schools and in the streets, and in recent years they have also taken to things like vandalising wreaths on the normal annual memorial day (may 4). This meshes nicely with the high tacit approval rate they found among Islamic youth (>70%) for the Charlie Hebdo killings.

I would very much like to think that this is all bullshit someone made up to stir up shit, but the simple fact is that it just isn't.

From your selective quote I conclude that you agreed with the rest of my post.

[Wage Slave]

The first time I heard about things like this happening was just after 9/11 on the radio, and after every major event there are the same reports of kids in certain neighborhoods disrupting memorial services and moments of silence both in schools and in the streets, and in recent years they have also taken to things like vandalising wreaths on the normal annual memorial day (may 4). This meshes nicely with the high tacit approval rate they found among Islamic youth (>70%) for the Charlie Hebdo killings.

I would very much like to think that this is all bullshit someone made up to stir up shit, but the simple fact is that it just isn't.

From your selective quote I conclude that you agreed with the rest of my post.

No, it just wasn't even worth commenting on. Of course we need proper security vetting of anyone working in sensitive locations. That doesn't include sacking all Muslims NOW or all anyone else on the grounds of their ethnicity, religious beliefs or what football team they support. It does mean proper vetting and checking of records though - of course. There also needs to be adequate monitoring and checking - even of pristine white German pilots with mental health issues.

Now you've changed your story from:

... they are a reaction to what people see everyday as they go about their lives. Ever since 9/11 and even before that, we have had 2nd/3rd generation immigrant kids in schools cheering and celebrating as news of any terrorist attack breaks, and people shouting "Allah Ackbar" during moments of silence and purposefully causing other disturbances just to upset the locals.

to

The first time I heard about things like this happening was just after 9/11 on the radio, and after every major event there are the same reports of kids in certain neighborhoods disrupting memorial services and moments of silence both in schools and in the streets,

So now its reports on the radio, not everyday life ? Might I venture that that would be fuckwits phoning in to talk shows with fabricated tales to fuel hate? Anyway, not at all convincing. As it happens, I was working in refugee and migrant worker central in London when 9/11 happened. In and among literally thousands of them. And also when 7/7 happened. I can assure you there was not even a hint of celebration - It was solemn silence mixed with a certain amount of justified fear what the consequences from people like you would be.

[Tsuru]

Nobody is talking about refugees. I am talking about kids of people who have been here for generations.

[Wage Slave]

Nobody is talking about refugees. I am talking about kids of people who have been here for generations.

Same answer. Let's see some evidence then. I don't see any.

[Tsuru]

Nobody is talking about refugees. I am talking about kids of people who have been here for generations.

Same answer. Let's see some evidence then. I don't see any.

Fair enough. Finding English sources is a bit difficult, but the assembled press being pelted with rocks and bottles when they went to Molenbeek to cover Abdeslam's arrest is a nice one to start with which was fairly widely covered before the Brussels attacks happened. What do you think about this?

The best example I can give you was a tweet from daughter of a Dutch TV presenter who asked publicly on twitter if she could please switch schools because some of her schoolmates were celebrating the Brussels attack. This blew up the Dutch internet the past few days.

Or the fact that in the Utrecht borough of Zuilen there is now a Moroccan flag at every 4 may service to hopefully keep the local youth from vandalising the wreaths and flowers at the local monument, even though no Moroccan soldiers died liberating that town, or even the country? I know that this is claimed and touted every year, but sadly not a historical fact.

Or that many teachers have given up trying to teach about the Holocaust because many kids will loudly deny such a thing even happened? Never mind discussing freedom of criticising religion in general, or freedom expression where it concerns things like Charlie Hebdo?

[Wage Slave]

Post some links please. Doesn't matter if they are in Dutch although I do wonder why I didn't hear the first story. Russell can assess the quality. Your best example seems a bit flaky to me.

[matsuki]

Of course we need proper security vetting of anyone working in sensitive locations. That doesn't include sacking all Muslims NOW or all anyone else on the grounds of their ethnicity, religious beliefs or what football team they support.

Why do the sky fairy cults get a free pass when it comes to the nutty shit they worship? Is there a better litmus test for mental health than religion? I'd honestly feel much safer if the workers held no religious beliefs, Muslim or not. Nothing to do with ethnicity or what football team they support.

[Tsuru]

Post some links please. Doesn't matter if they are in Dutch although I do wonder why I didn't hear the first story. Russell can assess the quality. Your best example seems a bit flaky to me.

The tweet in Google cache since she locked her account after it exploded:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=nl

The flag in Utrecht: http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/20 ... hamen.html

Teaching about the holocaust: http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Nederland/a ... ingen.drum

Freedom of expression hurting Islamic feelings in the wake of Charlie Hebdo: http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenla ... bdo-poster

Enjoy!

[dimwit]

I remember visiting Brussels 20 some years ago and having one of my friends warning me to avoid the Molenbeek district, so even before all the Jihadis, the place had a reputation for unpleasantness.

[Wage Slave]

Post some links please. Doesn't matter if they are in Dutch although I do wonder why I didn't hear the first story. Russell can assess the quality. Your best example seems a bit flaky to me.

The tweet in Google cache since she locked her account after it exploded:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=nl

The flag in Utrecht: http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/20 ... hamen.html

Teaching about the holocaust: http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Nederland/a ... ingen.drum

Freedom of expression hurting Islamic feelings in the wake of Charlie Hebdo: http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenla ... bdo-poster

Enjoy!

The only one that sounds at all relevant to what you are claiming here, ie celebration of terrorist acts by long term immigrants, is the Tweet from the child of a TV presenter about wanting to change schools. That doesn't sound like it deserves a lot of weight - children say all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. And TV presenters ditto. Anyway, I'll wait for Russell's assessment.

[Wage Slave]

I remember visiting Brussels 20 some years ago and having one of my friends warning me to avoid the Molenbeek district, so even before all the Jihadis, the place had a reputation for unpleasantness.

That sounds highly credible. An area of high deprivation and deep social exclusion with a high crime rate.

Is there not also an issue with the way the Belgian police are split into multiple forces who do not communicate with each other. And another issue over the fact no-one took responsibility for monitoring these perpetrators even though they were well known?

[Russell]

Post some links please. Doesn't matter if they are in Dutch although I do wonder why I didn't hear the first story. Russell can assess the quality. Your best example seems a bit flaky to me.

The tweet in Google cache since she locked her account after it exploded:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=nl

The flag in Utrecht: http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/20 ... hamen.html

Teaching about the holocaust: http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Nederland/a ... ingen.drum

Freedom of expression hurting Islamic feelings in the wake of Charlie Hebdo: http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenla ... bdo-poster

Enjoy!

The only one that sounds at all relevant to what you are claiming here, ie celebration of terrorist acts by long term immigrants, is the Tweet from the child of a TV presenter about wanting to change schools. That doesn't sound like it deserves a lot of weight - children say all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. And TV presenters ditto. Anyway, I'll wait for Russell's assessment.

Please, give me some time.

Quite busy and exhausted at the moment. Probably won't be until the weekend before I can respond appropriately.

In the mean time, everyone involved please read this.

[kurogane]

An interesting argument, that. I think that craving for simplicity amongst the Oompa Lumpen is the key cognitive drive: there are a lot of people that are functional retards that work, drive and vote (esp. in the US and Onterrible, yark yark), and the increasing complexity of life and the world over the last 20 or so years is like pouring boiling hot ashphalt on their overloaded pea brains. Now add the economic insecurity of having to be able to think to be able to find work and you have a craving for a simple truth spoken by a simple saviour.

Interesting that all these issues have sprouted since Brussels; I only hope this flood of information doesn't turn us all into vegetables. It's all rather depressing, and makes one want to get sauced...........

[Samurai_Jerk]

Is there a better litmus test for mental health than religion?

This question has been answered by far more intelligent people than any of us and yes there is.

Besides those who live in glass cells with padded walls shouldn't throw stones.

[Coligny]

yup... amazeball some still have their jobs...

And some peeps from the army are calling for reclassification of part of the strategic nukes arsenal into tactical weapons.
For the whole glass parking lot option...

I'll be under my desk...

[kurogane]

It's hardly surprising all these apocryphal stories of Allah Loompa savagery sprouting from the frypan of terror that is Brussels, but they do sound like Yellow Press conspiracy theories. Allowing for the bestial nature of all Islam, most Mohammedans simply aren't the hateful ingrates so many seem to wish to paint them as. If anything they seem like quite decent, if comically backwards. I mean, no woman no drive? Who da fuck is supposed to go get the groceries, FFS!????

I must say, though, Tsuru's invective is a nice break from the usual sappy liberal apologies. They are obviously doing something very wrong, and I don't mean just being born. There is no way that many can be that troggy without a major failure of their own making. The inability to call a camel jockey a camel jockey is a major obstacle to tackling an important social issue, esp. if, as Tsuru says, these are Dutchies not FOBs. Dutch social justice and cohesion demand it, not to mention Dutch civilisation. Talking about an obvious and identifiable collective issue as a matter of Unique and Special Individuals (!!) worthy of a syrupy flood of mawkish relativism does nobody except the internet cat ladies any good.

[Wage Slave]

Post some links please. Doesn't matter if they are in Dutch although I do wonder why I didn't hear the first story. Russell can assess the quality. Your best example seems a bit flaky to me.

The tweet in Google cache since she locked her account after it exploded:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=nl

The flag in Utrecht: http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/20 ... hamen.html

Teaching about the holocaust: http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Nederland/a ... ingen.drum

Freedom of expression hurting Islamic feelings in the wake of Charlie Hebdo: http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenla ... bdo-poster

Enjoy!

The only one that sounds at all relevant to what you are claiming here, ie celebration of terrorist acts by long term immigrants, is the Tweet from the child of a TV presenter about wanting to change schools. That doesn't sound like it deserves a lot of weight - children say all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. And TV presenters ditto. Anyway, I'll wait for Russell's assessment.

Please, give me some time.

Quite busy and exhausted at the moment. Probably won't be until the weekend before I can respond appropriately.

In the mean time, everyone involved please read this.

Yep, thanks - if you have time. If you don't then leave it. The only one that's relevant to the discussion is the child Twitter thing and we can be confident that it is an isolated incident regardless of anything else.

The other stories are too obscure and too off topic to worry about.

[Samurai_Jerk]

This is all starting to remind me of a discussion we had about Korematsu v. United States in a college law class I took back in about 1997. The professor asked if anyone thought something like the Japanese internment, which everyone agreed was wrong, could happen in the US again and everyone but me said no. I told them they were way too naive and used the example of Islamic terrorism leading to violating the civil liberties of Muslims. I guess I shoulda been a CIA analyst or something.

[Coligny]

This is all starting to remind me of a discussion we had about Korematsu v. United States in a college law class I took back in about 1997. The professor asked if anyone thought something like the Japanese internment, which everyone agreed was wrong, could happen in the US again and everyone but me said no. I told them they were way too naive and used the example of Islamic terrorism leading to violating the civil liberties of Muslims. I guess I shoulda been a CIA analyst or something.

After the whole McCarthyism thing that make you wonder what kind of college you wuz in... Could the other pupils at least count to potato or just up to firetruck ?

[Samurai_Jerk]

After the whole McCarthyism thing that make you wonder what kind of college you wuz in... Could the other pupils at least count to potato or just up to firetruck ?

University of Washington in Seattle. In their defense they were mostly Pacific Northwest liberals who grew up sheltered from the realities of the rest of America let alone the world. And that was right before liberals in America started seeing everything as a racist conspiracy again.

[Wage Slave]

This is all starting to remind me of a discussion we had about Korematsu v. United States in a college law class I took back in about 1997. The professor asked if anyone thought something like the Japanese internment, which everyone agreed was wrong, could happen in the US again and everyone but me said no. I told them they were way too naive and used the example of Islamic terrorism leading to violating the civil liberties of Muslims. I guess I shoulda been a CIA analyst or something.

There are indeed people calling for internment in the UK as well. And the speed with which such opinions have gained a modicum of respectability is a signal warning. All that is needed to persuade far too many are a few uncorroborated tales of danger and offence in everyday life like Tsuru's and a determination to brush objections away under the catchphrase "No More Political Correctness." It could happen far too easily, which is why opposition to these people needs to be swift, firm and very clearheaded.

[Mike Oxlong]

Since Donald Drumpf has been making claims, there has been some checking and claims that it happened a little bit.

New Jersey police officers say Muslims DID celebrate 9/11 and eyewitness remembers cheers of 'Allahu Akbar!'

Doesn't prove much other than it probably happened somewhat in areas nearby, but the police gained the cooperation of the celebrants over concerns for their own safety, and put a stop to it fairly quickly. Whether or not it happened elsewhere or internationally it does not prove.

[Coligny]

Since Donald Drumpf has been making claims, there has been some checking and claims that it happened a little bit.

New Jersey police officers say Muslims DID celebrate 9/11 and eyewitness remembers cheers of 'Allahu Akbar!'

Doesn't prove much other than it probably happened somewhat in areas nearby, but the police gained the cooperation of the celebrants over concerns for their own safety, and put a stop to it fairly quickly. Whether or not it happened elsewhere or internationally it does not prove.

I thought it was mossad agents who were cheering at the burning skyscrapers...

[Wage Slave]

No doubt a small number of people did celebrate 9/11. And 7/7. And Paris. And Brussels. But it's morally wrong and very dangerous to declare a people collectively guilty, demonise them and then set out to punish them for the isolated actions of a very few. If nothing else you need to focus your resources on the small number of people who actually do pose a threat.

I see three cabinet ministers in Belgium have offered to resign over the policing debacle that allowed the airport and Metro attack to happen. You can't stop them all, every time, but this one should have been stopped in its tracks.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Since Donald Drumpf has been making claims, there has been some checking and claims that it happened a little bit.

New Jersey police officers say Muslims DID celebrate 9/11 and eyewitness remembers cheers of 'Allahu Akbar!'

Doesn't prove much other than it probably happened somewhat in areas nearby, but the police gained the cooperation of the celebrants over concerns for their own safety, and put a stop to it fairly quickly. Whether or not it happened elsewhere or internationally it does not prove.

I thought it was mossad agents who were cheering at the burning skyscrapers...

Yeah, they were happy they managed to get all the Jews out of the area before their operation was complete.

It's actually been a long time since I heard the "No Jews died on 9/11" claim. Maybe even the dumbest of dummies finally realized that one was just too hard to believe.

[matsuki]

In Jaaahzeee? You'd think they'd be murdered where they stood for that type of shit. An friend of mine who's family is from India...right after 9/11 they had the shit beat out of them by some assholes, being called terrorists and shit.....all for basically going to the movies while being being brown. (they did get legal justice after)

[Wage Slave]

Collective punishment is very nasty all right and it can be very difficult to stop once it starts. And that's why I object strongly to rumour mongering by people driven by their own sick bigotry.

[kurogane]

In Jaaahzeee? You'd think they'd be murdered where they stood for that type of shit. An friend of mine who's family is from India...right after 9/11 they had the shit beat out of them by some assholes, being called terrorists and shit.....all for basically going to the movies while being being brown. (they did get legal justice after)

That is my favourite argument against any Mohammedophobia: Sikhs were getting beaten for 9/11. Beat them for killing Ghandi, but don't beat them for being somethingthey're not. Until the heathens learn to flush their own toilets I have little compunction with actual camel jockeys paying for their own sins, but until we can guarantee than Jimmy and Vinny can differentiate I will always call Vincent Chin and beat the fat white fucks first. Even though those filthy Christ haters need to start manning up and either fight or die until people that matter don't need to care how backwards they choose to be.

Death to Islslam, Death to those that would not insult it. Peace.

What about a simple vow of obedience to their betters? That's how the Spanish did it, even though they chose the wrong enemy. This idea that Mohammedans matter is getting mildly worrisome, all the understandable defences of basic and usual freedoms aside. They are the problem. Get rid of them..........no problem.

[Tsuru]

Collective punishment is very nasty all right and it can be very difficult to stop once it starts. And that's why I object strongly to rumour mongering by people driven by their own sick bigotry.

If you read my posts from years back, you will find that I had a fairly heated argument with another member (since MIA) who was talking about the islamization of Europe. Much like you now, I told him he was full of shit and that no such thing was happening or could ever happen. I learned a few things (and had a few kids) since then.

There is a Dutch writer called Arthur van Amerongen, who used to be a journalist in the middle east for Dutch national TV and lived in Molenbeek for a while. He happens to speak Arabic and wrote a book about his experiences around ten years ago called "Eurabia".
He wrote about things like tax inspectors being disappeared, the usual no-go areas for police and emergency services and AK47's being imported from Chechnya with the express objective of undermining rule of law. Being a journalist for the VPRO he was a celebrated part of the left-wing establishment, but when his book was published he was immediately and irrevocably excommunicated. Only now, after the news broke that the terrorists who shot up Paris almost exclusively hailed from Molenbeek almost ten years later, are people starting to realize that he was right, and he is invited back on TV for commentary. People are starting to realize that this is a real and present danger and that for this to happen, a network of people has to be in place to provide logistical support and places to hide, and any threat of police finding out is suppressed by peer pressure and fear. Through my own work, I speak to a lot of pilots from all over the world, but a few of the things a 50-something airline captain from Belgium has told me stuck with me. For example, years ago he was stopped by a sharia patrol (men in beards and long white robes) to pick up his wife's car which happened to be parked in this area simply because he was in his uniform. Note that this was years ago. Or when he was on the job in the sharp end of his OO- registered Boeing and feeling tired and hungry in the early morning, flat out being refused breakfast by muslim cabin crew because it was ramadan. His experiences flying to Algeria, and landing under army protection at an airport which was close to being attacked by religious extremists, I can go on and on.

These days, I'm not so sure islam and its followers are as innocent as I once thought they were. A few who go about their lives and keep their beliefs to themselves? Fine. But you see time and time again that once they reach a certain critical mass in a particular area or within a particular organisation, they feel that they can start making demands and push their religious beliefs and rules on others. I think it was an Algerian staff member of Charlie Hebdo who said that "it starts with a request for a prayer room, and they end up taking your entire country". This I won't stand for.

Oh, and I almost forgot: the book I mentioned is still banned in Belgium to this day. I didn't know we were in the business of banning books. Well, apart from the one by that Austrian painter.