12 dead in Paris shooting

[Coligny]

Since Donald Drumpf has been making claims, there has been some checking and claims that it happened a little bit.

New Jersey police officers say Muslims DID celebrate 9/11 and eyewitness remembers cheers of 'Allahu Akbar!'

Doesn't prove much other than it probably happened somewhat in areas nearby, but the police gained the cooperation of the celebrants over concerns for their own safety, and put a stop to it fairly quickly. Whether or not it happened elsewhere or internationally it does not prove.

I thought it was mossad agents who were cheering at the burning skyscrapers...

Yeah, they were happy they managed to get all the Jews out of the area before their operation was complete.

It's actually been a long time since I heard the "No Jews died on 9/11" claim. Maybe even the dumbest of dummies finally realized that one was just too hard to believe.

Already been tolding youssa, at this level of insanity you use the word 'djouzes' and by now everybody knows that 911 was an inside jerb to destroy the remains of an alien spaceship hidden in building 7. Now it might have been djouzes from space... (/obscure //Mel Brooks)

[kurogane]

To be fair, there was quite a struggle over that last one.


I agree, btw. One or two heathens are fine. Once they gain even a plurality they get hilarious rather quickly. And there's always just enough Enlightened Cosmopolitans around to apologise when one of us proper natives starts to think about directing them to the nearest airport. Muslims are filth on a stick. Just because not all of them are like that all the time doesn't make that not true. They don't even like bacon, FFS, and we got over that one for them. What we need is a proper educational project, a crusade of knowledge, if you will.

Bacon for Allah.　Death to ISLSLAM

ps AS for 9/11, I found a place where East 30th Avenue runs into East 33 Avenue. It's a grid pattern. Coincidence????

[Grumpy Gramps]

I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am God.

That's the bible, not the Quran. I think, these ISIS blokes are in fact good christians, who follow this bible to the letter and run a smear campaign by making us believe, they were muslims in order to promote christianity. Twisted

[kurogane]

Well, .......Old Testament.............but if it girds our loins, then lay on MacDuff.

[Coligny]

I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am God.

That's the bible, not the Quran. I think, these ISIS blokes are in fact good christians, who follow this bible to the letter and run a smear campaign by making us believe, they were muslims in order to promote christianity. Twisted

Ya haz ta see dis one...

image.jpeg

[Wage Slave]

The real problem lies with allowing religious groups to impose their values and mores on the rest of us. On that there is absolutely no argument - It needs to be made more clear that humanist values always trump religious values and democratic law based on human rights always trumps religious strictures. And that should apply to all religious groups without exception and always. Giving in to demands from one group or making special allowances only leads to the others demanding yet more special treatment for themselves. Demands for religious law, of any flavour, to be imposed are completely unacceptable. If people choose to sort out their own civil problems via religious principles and tribunals then is up to them, provided it doesn't in any way contradict criminal law.

Europe doesn't face any threat of Islamification. It does, of course, face a terrorist threat. For some people that's new and they don't understand how to deal with it. For others, it isn't anything new at all and the same things that brought an end to it in the past will bring an end to it now. Those things do not include demonisation of entire communities, mass punishment, mass internment or mass exclusion/impoverishment. On the contrary - that's exactly the way to keep a terrorist group in business. And they know that very very well.

[Coligny]

Cliff's notes version:

[Grumpy Gramps]

It needs to be made more clear that humanist values always trump religious values

Wouldn't that be just another religion/philosophy that you want to impose on others? The definition of these values looks a little nebulous and seems to vary across cultures, so what would they be?

[matsuki]

It needs to be made more clear that humanist values always trump religious values

Wouldn't that be just another religion/philosophy that you want to impose on others? The definition of these values looks a little nebulous and seems to vary across cultures, so what would they be?

Philosophy yes...but not a religion and people that don't agree are not being inhibited from migrating to third world shitholes where these values aren't in play.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Muslims (not including Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam) in the US were a largely ignored minority that no one worried much about before 9/11. Probably because they tended to be better off and better integrated than their cousins in the Europe. I grew up with secularized Muslims friends and they were pretty much like the rest of us. They drank, smoked pot, ate ham sandwiches, and tried to get laid. Their parents weren't particularly strict or religious either. Plus unlike those uptight Korean Christians the Muslims would sell us beer and porno mags at their bodegas So for me it really is sad to see how much things have changed.

This situation is being made worse because it's tough to have an intelligent conversation about this. If you point out there are problems within the Muslim world, you're a racist, fascist and Islamophobe. Oh, and you're not allowed to speak at our university. If you say Muslims are people too and deserve the same civil liberties as the rest of us, you're a bed-wetting PC liberal appeaser. Why can't I believe that the problem is Islam as it is practiced today by a large enough percentage of its followers to be a real threat, that even if it is our chickens coming home to roost we have to deal with the problem at hand regardless of the cause, and that while we do deal with this problem we make sure not to demonize whole communities? I know that's not an easy task and there will mistakes along the way but this slope could quickly get very slippery if we don't proceed with caution.

[Wage Slave]

It needs to be made more clear that humanist values always trump religious values

Wouldn't that be just another religion/philosophy that you want to impose on others? The definition of these values looks a little nebulous and seems to vary across cultures, so what would they be?

It's certainly not another religion but yes it is a philosophical and ethical stance. I should have mentioned secularism as well. If anyone can come up with something better then fine but to me, for Europe at least, that's as good as we've got or likely to get. And something worth preserving/fighting for.

Anyhow, something like:

Humanism is a philosophical and ethical stance that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively, and generally prefers critical thinking and evidence (rationalism, empiricism) over acceptance of dogma or superstition. The meaning of the term humanism has fluctuated according to the successive intellectual movements which have identified with it.[1] Generally, however, humanism refers to a perspective that affirms some notion of human freedom and progress. In modern times, humanist movements are typically aligned with secularism, and today humanism typically refers to a non-theistic life stance centred on human agency and looking to science rather than revelation from a supernatural source to understand the world.[2][3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

aligned with:

Secularism is the principle of the separation of government institutions and persons mandated to represent the state from religious institutions and religious dignitaries. One manifestation of secularism is asserting the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, or, in a state declared to be neutral on matters of belief, from the imposition by government of religion or religious practices upon its people.[Notes 1] Another manifestation of secularism is the view that public activities and decisions, especially political ones, should be uninfluenced by religious beliefs and/or practices.

(Again from Wikipedia)

Other countries/cultures may decide they wish to organise themselves differently. That's their prerogative provided they don't seek to impose their values. If they attempt to do so by force then they need to be met with force.

[Coligny]

Muslims (not including Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam) in the US were a largely ignored minority that no one worried much about before 9/11. Probably because they tended to be better off and better integrated than their cousins in the Europe. I grew up with secularized Muslims friends and they were pretty much like the rest of us. They drank, smoked pot, ate ham sandwiches, and tried to get laid. Their parents weren't particularly strict or religious either. Plus unlike those uptight Korean Christians the Muslims would sell us beer and porno mags at their bodegas So for me it really is sad to see how much things have changed.

This situation is being made worse because it's tough to have an intelligent conversation about this. If you point out there are problems within the Muslim world, you're a racist, fascist and Islamophobe. Oh, and you're not allowed to speak at our university. If you say Muslims are people too and deserve the same civil liberties as the rest of us, you're a bed-wetting PC liberal appeaser. Why can't I believe that the problem is Islam as it is practiced today by a large enough percentage of its followers to be a real threat, that even if it is our chickens coming home to roost we have to deal with the problem at hand regardless of the cause, and that while we do deal with this problem we make sure not to demonize whole communities? I know that's not an easy task and there will mistakes along the way but this slope could quickly get very slippery if we don't proceed with caution.

green snot
even if it makez my anus bleed to have to agreez with youssa on sumthing.

[Grumpy Gramps]

It's certainly not another religion but yes it is a philosophical and ethical stance.

Ah, that explains the difference. For me the religions are just philosophies like any other. So whether you're a christianist, islamist, atheist, humanist, epicurianist or cat-lover is all the same for me

[Coligny]

It's certainly not another religion but yes it is a philosophical and ethical stance.

Ah, that explains the difference. For me the religions are just philosophies like any other. So whether you're a christianist, islamist, atheist, humanist, epicurianist or cat-lover is all the same for me

Ya forgot Felines Supremacist...

[Samurai_Jerk]

it makez my anus bleed

Don't act like it's the first time I've made that happen.

[Tsuru]

The real problem lies with allowing religious groups to impose their values and mores on the rest of us. On that there is absolutely no argument - It needs to be made more clear that humanist values always trump religious values and democratic law based on human rights always trumps religious strictures. And that should apply to all religious groups without exception and always. Giving in to demands from one group or making special allowances only leads to the others demanding yet more special treatment for themselves. Demands for religious law, of any flavour, to be imposed are completely unacceptable. If people choose to sort out their own civil problems via religious principles and tribunals then is up to them, provided it doesn't in any way contradict criminal law.

Europe doesn't face any threat of Islamification. It does, of course, face a terrorist threat. For some people that's new and they don't understand how to deal with it. For others, it isn't anything new at all and the same things that brought an end to it in the past will bring an end to it now. Those things do not include demonisation of entire communities, mass punishment, mass internment or mass exclusion/impoverishment. On the contrary - that's exactly the way to keep a terrorist group in business. And they know that very very well.

100% agreed on the first part of course, unfortunately this is not what is happening in the real world. The UK has recently signed measures into law which can be used to silence criticism of religious beliefs, because apparently the most powerful and omnipotent thing in the universe is a risk of crumbling into dust when someone draws a picture of its prophet, calls it a nasty name or otherwise hurts its feelings. This was not done for buddhists or jews. The great paradox of islam is that when individual members conduct themselves in a less than examplary manner you of course cannot hold all other followers responsible, but when you ridicule aspects of their religion, a surprising great many of them are apparently fine with you being murdered and embassies of your country being set on fire. So which is it?

My original post, that of people losing their security clearance because of their religous affiliation, was not to imply that we should round up all muslims and put them into camps or things like that. It is however, an example of the difficult choice facing Europe today. If you have someone in a position where a single malicious action by one individual can destroy hunderds of lives who may pose an elevated risk of acting out on hurt feelings, regardless whether that may be because of his own free will, because of peer pressure or even because of being blackmailed, perhaps you should make sure that this person is no longer in a position to do so. This definitely is one way of dealing with terrorist threats: you do as much as possible to take away the means and the opportunity to do so. It is unfortunate that these people have lost their jobs, but as you can read in the acticle they are represented by a union, which in my mind can be instrumental in finding them other means of employment. The thing with security clearances is that nobody has a fundamental right to obtaining them, and a lot of things can be reasons to exclude individuals from getting them. Being in a precarious financial position opening yourself up to blackmail or bribery is one other example. Or having a foreign spouse, having a second citizenship, having visited certain countries, etc. There is absolutely no reason why religous affiliation should deserve any special treatment in this instance.

[Coligny]

it makez my anus bleed

Don't act like it's the first time I've made that happen.

I warned youze over and over that I can't handle spicy foodz...
My bunghole haz a nickname... Mount Pinatubo...

[Wage Slave]

How about Muslim pilots? There must be lots of them flying in and out of Europe's airports every day. And what about cabin staff - plenty of them? Come to think of it we are thinking far too narrowly. We also need to sack Muslim bus drivers and train drivers. After all they could easily cause the deaths of hundreds of people too. OK, so they will lose their jobs, but unions are famous for finding people alternative jobs in completely unrelated fields. They do little else I'm told.

Only after we've done all that will we be able to say that transport systems are remotely safe and that terrorism is on the way being defeated. However, we will still need go further and make sure that no Muslim is in any job where a malicious act could endanger many lives. The list will be quite long I suspect .....suggestions welcome.

[Samurai_Jerk]

How about Muslim pilots? There must be lots of them flying in and out of Europe's airports every day. And what about cabin staff - plenty of them? Come to think of it we are thinking far too narrowly. We also need to sack Muslim bus drivers and train drivers. After all they could easily cause the deaths of hundreds of people too. OK, so they will lose their jobs, but unions are famous for finding people alternative jobs in completely unrelated fields. They do little else I'm told.

Only after we've done all that will we be able to say that transport systems are remotely safe and that terrorism is on the way being defeated. However, we will still need go further and make sure that no Muslim is in any job where a malicious act could endanger many lives. The list will be quite long I suspect .....suggestions welcome.

Seeing as how attacks on public transport are usually carried out by passengers it would be best to ban them as well.

[Tsuru]

How about Muslim pilots? There must be lots of them flying in and out of Europe's airports every day. And what about cabin staff - plenty of them? Come to think of it we are thinking far too narrowly. We also need to sack Muslim bus drivers and train drivers. After all they could easily cause the deaths of hundreds of people too. OK, so they will lose their jobs, but unions are famous for finding people alternative jobs in completely unrelated fields. They do little else I'm told.

Only after we've done all that will we be able to say that transport systems are remotely safe and that terrorism is on the way being defeated. However, we will still need go further and make sure that no Muslim is in any job where a malicious act could endanger many lives. The list will be quite long I suspect .....suggestions welcome.

In my experience, muslim pilots are very few and far between in the EU, probably because few people these days can afford to start and complete the training, and the job market is such that potential employers get to choose from hundreds of candidates for every position which opens up. This is quite a different situation from baggage loaders. In addition, since the Germanwings crash measures have been put in place to keep one aircrew member from being alone in the flightdeck. But there was a case of a BA 747 pilot a few years back who was flagged during an investigation and lost his job over similar concerns.
As for trains specifically, it is impossible to crash them into things on purpose at high speed because of the ATB system, and of course they have the marked advantage of traveling slower, being confined to a track and anyone on board can stop them at any time. So I'd say the risks are a bit more manageable in this case. The most you can do is derail them by going too fast on a windy bit of track, but I think the results of such an event are not predictable enough to be useful to terrrrrrissss.

A different example is nuclear installations: there was a highly publicized incident of sabotage at the Doel plant near Antwerp two years ago, and since then two workers from this plant have quit and went on to go to Syria to join ISIS. Naturally, because of the highly secretive nature of these operations it is quite difficult to find out details, but what we do know is that on the same day as the Brussels bombings all access to the installations at Tihange was revoked for non-essential personnel. There was also video evidence found with people associated with the Brussels terror cell of them stalking and surveying a highly placed official at another nuclear installation for unknown purposes, and apparently a security guard of a Belgian radiological institute was murdered and his badge stolen just two days ago. Although in fairness to that last one, any links to terrorism are currently being denied by the Belgian government. source in Dutch

But I don't know, maybe we should just keep giving them the benefit of the doubt.

[Coligny]

How about Muslim pilots?

You do know that a French HR staff would be fired on the spot if they were willing and able to answer that question ?

You usually need to use the trick mixing Renseignement Generaux investigations (a french FBI fielded by red potato nosed alcholics) and prefectoral orders under the guise of nationnal safety. Who then order the HR to isolate said islamofascistes. In a process taking usually 12 to 18 month more than an effective action would have required.

But I heard rumors that some pilots were actually card carrying communist party members...

Shivurz...

[Wage Slave]

In my experience, muslim pilots are very few and far between in the EU

It only takes one and hundreds of people could be killed!

And what about airlines from outside the EU - They must have lots of Muslim pilots. We had better ban all of them from European airports.

Have you seen trains in the UK? They have major crashes without the driver even doing anything wrong never mind with. But never mind, what about bus drivers? Imagine the mayhem just one Muslim driver could cause during the morning rush hour!

[Russell]

Post some links please. Doesn't matter if they are in Dutch although I do wonder why I didn't hear the first story. Russell can assess the quality. Your best example seems a bit flaky to me.

The tweet in Google cache since she locked her account after it exploded:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=nl

The flag in Utrecht: http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/20 ... hamen.html

Teaching about the holocaust: http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Nederland/a ... ingen.drum

Freedom of expression hurting Islamic feelings in the wake of Charlie Hebdo: http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenla ... bdo-poster

Enjoy!

The only one that sounds at all relevant to what you are claiming here, ie celebration of terrorist acts by long term immigrants, is the Tweet from the child of a TV presenter about wanting to change schools. That doesn't sound like it deserves a lot of weight - children say all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. And TV presenters ditto. Anyway, I'll wait for Russell's assessment.

Please, give me some time.

Quite busy and exhausted at the moment. Probably won't be until the weekend before I can respond appropriately.

In the mean time, everyone involved please read this.

So, let me comment on the links.

First, the Twitter: I am not such a follower of that source, because I regard it mostly as a venue for people with an overblown ego who are unable to put a decent essay on paper. I do not doubt the account of the girl, though, but do not see it as sufficient evidence that the vast majority of the Muslims in the Netherlands celebrate the Brussels attacks.

Second, the Geen Stijl link: This web site describes itself as "biased, unfounded, and unnecessarily offensive", and it known to play on people's emotions. I would describe them as "Trump light". That is not to say that I doubt their reporting on the Moroccan flag being half mast, but it may be a good time to rethink what May 4 stands for: just to remember the deaths of armed forces and civilians from the Netherlands since the outbreak of WW2 (as it used to be), or remember the deaths from wars in general. Note that there has been discussions recently to include Germany in this remembrance as well. Personally, I do not see the use of this flag as such an offense, though it does raise some doubts about the real loyalties of Dutch people of Moroccan ethnicity.

Third, the Algemeen Dagblad link does not work, but I assume that you mean this one? Seems the Muslim kids make a link with Gaza. Not comparable to the Holocaust, but the mindset of treating people there in the way they are treated is kind of resembling that of the Warsaw ghetto, so that may be a reason that some kids may feel that way. It would be interesting to check whether it is all Muslim kids, or only those of Arab ethnicity, who may feel more closely connected to Palestinians. As you know there is also a sizeable community of non-Arab Muslims in the Netherlands, but somehow I do not hear much reporting on them. Anyway, my advice is to keep trying to educate kids on the Holocaust, because it is an important part of history. And while we are at it, let's not exclude other parts of the world that are about as recent.

Fourth link, about the poster put up by a teacher of a Muslim kissing a cartoonist: Is this what education should be about?

In general, I totally agree with the sentiment that our European values should not be ignored just because of political correctness. We should continue to strongly stand by them, and emphasize that there is a long (and bloody) history that made them so important to us. And it is also important that we do not alienate people by treating them unfairly based on their ethnic or religious background.

[Tsuru]

In my experience, muslim pilots are very few and far between in the EU

It only takes one and hundreds of people could be killed!

And what about airlines from outside the EU - They must have lots of Muslim pilots. We had better ban all of them from European airports.

There are several issues at play here, first is that the guys who fly big iron don't get to that point without extremely invasive security vetting, medical examination which includes EEGs not to mention years, sometimes decades of eating shit flying puddle jumpers, by which time most of them are in their thirties/forties with families. Not exactly the core demographic at play here. This refers to western pilots as well as non-western pilots.

The people that fly large aircraft in the middle east, for example for airlines like Emirates, Etihad or even Saudia are actually a majority of western expat pilots. Personally I have flown with the first on many occasions, but never have I even seen a local flightcrew. I alluded to this in another, unrelated thread. As for the pilots who are local and flying large aircraft internationally, you have to understand that these people represent a very privileged upper crust of their respective societies, either because they are from well-connected families and/or because they are ex-military officers. As I mentioned before, through the nature of my work I meet pilots from all over the world, including guys who fly the Fokker domestically around Iran (up until the blanket US-imposed ban on all business of early 2013, that is). I must say have never met a single one who I would considered to be devoutly religous or otherwise unstable. Quite the opposite: perfect gentlemen with a good sense of humour. Suggesting commercial pilots are liable to committing acts of religous terrorism is getting into "Debt of honour" levels of absurdity.

Fourth link, about the poster put up by a teacher of a Muslim kissing a cartoonist: Is this what education should be about?

Why shouldn't it? Calls to ban or censor things because they offend are far too thick on the ground in the west, and the worst possible thing they can take away from this is that it is OK to give in to people who scream their heads off and demand removal of things they see that they don't like. The worst thing about censorship is

[kagemusha]

This debate about 'How many Jihadist can blow themselves on the head of a pin' is so futile and impotent, so disconnected from reality and is a great example for the destructive influence of the Regressive Left. If we try to talk about the problem of Muslims and terror there is always the useful idiot like that will jump to remind us that 'Not all Muslims are terrorists' and that's that - no more debate about the real problem because of the holly PC.
It is becoming hilarious when devoted but moderate Muslims try to talk about the problem in the Muslim world - they are immediately branded (by white clueless bigots) as actually ISLAMOPHOBES! Just happened to Kamel Daoud and Maajid Nawaz for trying to imply that Islam must accept reforms in order to help its community advance and become more democratic and liberal.
Let's see what was the reaction to the murder of a Pakistani politician who offered to legally defend a woman who was accused as a blasphemer and was sentenced to death. He was murdered by a Jihadist. And now to a useless PC break:
THIS IS AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE: NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE JIHADISTS AND BEARS SHIT IN THE WOOD.

Previously, a quarter of my fellow British Muslims have expressed sympathy with the terrorists who attacked the Charlie Hebdo offices in Paris. And now, certain Muslim religious and community “leaders,” who position themselves as anti-ISIS and “mainstream,” have come out publicly praising Qadri as a hero.

One of Europe’s largest mosques, the Barelwi Sufi-managed Ghamkol Sharif in Birmingham, U.K., held a wake “in honor of the lover of the Prophet, Warrior Mumtaz Qadri, the martyr.”

Another Barelwi Imam, Muhammed Asim Hussain, whose verified Facebook page has been liked nearly 137,000 times, posted his position openly:

“A dark day in the history of Pakistan; the day Ghazi [warrior] Mumtaz was wrongfully executed and martyred in the way of Allah, when he did what he did in honor of the Prophet.”

A mainstream conservative Barelwi leader, Muhammad Masood Qadiri, who presents a weekly show on Ummah TV, available on the Sky TV platform, doubled-down after hailing “warrior” Qadri as a “martyr”:

“This does not make me a terrorist sympathizer as I, along with millions of fellow Muslims, do not accept that Gazi Mumtaz Qadri was a terrorist in the least. I have always been the first to condemn terrorism wherever in the world it takes place. I am also an Islamic religious minister. I therefore have a duty to express an opinion on fundamental matters concerning Islam and on this occasion, the crime of blasphemy.… As for having travelled to the funeral of Gazi Mumtaz Qadri, along with hundreds of thousands of others who also attended, I am not at all ashamed of this.”

Mohammed Shafiq, who runs the Ramadan Foundation website, a regular pundit on the “community leader” circuit, posted a prayer eulogizing Qadri and criticized Pakistani media for not condemning Qadri’s execution.

What makes the positions of all of these “community leaders” so hurtful is that they hail from the relatively moderate, Barelwi strand of Sufi Pakistani Islam.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/03/07/obscene-praise-for-the-pakistani-muslim-who-murdered-a-blasphemer.html
Look at all those 'moderate' Muslim leaders so embraced by the regressive left and given a free hand to dominant the Muslim communities in the west - how can you blame some stupid teenagers for cheering violence when their 'respectable' leaders doing it on the useful idiot's public media and public funded institutions for years?

I don't want to repeat all the things I say here after the previously attacks in French. I'll just say again that those attacks are just going to grow in frequency and strength as long as the European governments will do everything to avoid dealing with the real problem that challenges the boundaries of PC. by doing so the give more fuel to the growing militants elements on both sides -The Jihadists and the white fascists (should I say that not all whites are fascists or is useless PC is applied only when we talk about those other people?)
Let's have the some more shock and dismay and crocodile tears the next time around, don't worry it will come in higher dose to suit our numb nerves.

[Tsuru]

Yes, yes, but do they have HGV licenses???

[Wage Slave]

If I were Belgian I'd be less worried about the actions of the Government and more worried about the non actions of their various police forces that appear not to co-operate with each other in any meaningful way.

Anyway, Europe faces a challenge. Either stay true to European values or adopt the Old Testament style middle eastern values that various other protagonists in this fight believe in. I know which I want and which I believe is more likely to succeed if backed by the necessary force. And force will be needed. It has nothing to do with PC, unless you define PC as European values.

[Wage Slave]

Post some links please. Doesn't matter if they are in Dutch although I do wonder why I didn't hear the first story. Russell can assess the quality. Your best example seems a bit flaky to me.

The tweet in Google cache since she locked her account after it exploded:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=nl

The flag in Utrecht: http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven/20 ... hamen.html

Teaching about the holocaust: http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Nederland/a ... ingen.drum

Freedom of expression hurting Islamic feelings in the wake of Charlie Hebdo: http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/binnenla ... bdo-poster

Enjoy!

The only one that sounds at all relevant to what you are claiming here, ie celebration of terrorist acts by long term immigrants, is the Tweet from the child of a TV presenter about wanting to change schools. That doesn't sound like it deserves a lot of weight - children say all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. And TV presenters ditto. Anyway, I'll wait for Russell's assessment.

Please, give me some time.

Quite busy and exhausted at the moment. Probably won't be until the weekend before I can respond appropriately.

In the mean time, everyone involved please read this.

So, let me comment on the links.

First, the Twitter: I am not such a follower of that source, because I regard it mostly as a venue for people with an overblown ego who are unable to put a decent essay on paper. I do not doubt the account of the girl, though, but do not see it as sufficient evidence that the vast majority of the Muslims in the Netherlands celebrate the Brussels attacks.

Second, the Geen Stijl link: This web site describes itself as "biased, unfounded, and unnecessarily offensive", and it known to play on people's emotions. I would describe them as "Trump light". That is not to say that I doubt their reporting on the Moroccan flag being half mast, but it may be a good time to rethink what May 4 stands for: just to remember the deaths of armed forces and civilians from the Netherlands since the outbreak of WW2 (as it used to be), or remember the deaths from wars in general. Note that there has been discussions recently to include Germany in this remembrance as well. Personally, I do not see the use of this flag as such an offense, though it does raise some doubts about the real loyalties of Dutch people of Moroccan ethnicity.

Third, the Algemeen Dagblad link does not work, but I assume that you mean this one? Seems the Muslim kids make a link with Gaza. Not comparable to the Holocaust, but the mindset of treating people there in the way they are treated is kind of resembling that of the Warsaw ghetto, so that may be a reason that some kids may feel that way. It would be interesting to check whether it is all Muslim kids, or only those of Arab ethnicity, who may feel more closely connected to Palestinians. As you know there is also a sizeable community of non-Arab Muslims in the Netherlands, but somehow I do not hear much reporting on them. Anyway, my advice is to keep trying to educate kids on the Holocaust, because it is an important part of history. And while we are at it, let's not exclude other parts of the world that are about as recent.

Fourth link, about the poster put up by a teacher of a Muslim kissing a cartoonist: Is this what education should be about?

In general, I totally agree with the sentiment that our European values should not be ignored just because of political correctness. We should continue to strongly stand by them, and emphasize that there is a long (and bloody) history that made them so important to us. And it is also important that we do not alienate people by treating them unfairly based on their ethnic or religious background.

Thank you for that Russell - a very fair and useful summary. So, Tsuru, what do you think about that then? Nothing of any note or weight at all as far as I can see.

[Tsuru]

Thank you for that Russell - a very fair and useful summary. So, Tsuru, what do you think about that then? Nothing of any note or weight at all as far as I can see.

What I think? Much the same as you, a fair and diplomatic commentary: he agrees with me that there might be a loyalty issue and there are issues surrounding holocaust denial in education. He just chooses to dismiss the tweet as proof of any positive sentiment in school surrounding terrorist activity, but that is his prerogative. As you can see I also answered the question Russell directed at me in his post, so instead of going "Hah! See?" maybe you can give us your views on that, or on all of the other things myself and others have written which you have so conveniently ignored over the course of this topic. I think the basic issue at hand is whether European values are best served by tolerating intolerance or not, and my stance is that no, they most definitely are not.

But maybe it's just better at this point to agree to disagree and be thankful you are not in charge of anyone's airport security.

[Takechanpoo]

next their target is nuke power plant there in europe?
when 9.11 happened and even 3.11 did, i could not help but get excited as fuck. it was like all of the cells throughout my body got flared up.
i do wanna taste the same feeling again.