Growing Surveillance and Control

[Yokohammer]

...
Yokohammer,
I agree, but what I was asking was whether it is actually a legal requirement to do so, not a reasonable and practical compromise, though I fully agree with you, always do so, and never mind when asked, though I have had a few Okinawan cops be rather brusque and presumptuous, which hurt my feelings.

My understanding is that it is a legal requirement. Cops, immigration officials, coast guard ... you are required by law to produce on request. Hotel desk staff can go fuck themselves (unless you're temporary and have no fixed address in japan).

Back in the good old days when our Alien Registration cards were actually little booklets, that requirement and the attendant laws were printed in it. That was before smartphones, of course, so if you really needed something to read on the train, there it was.

[Yokohammer]

This is such a load of evasive crap. The law is clear.

If a cop asks to see your residence card, just show it to him. You can ask to see his ID if you really suspect he's a fake, but if not, just show him the card and be done with it.

You clearly don't understand. Why conclude everything in 10 seconds, when you can instead involve yourself and four police officers in a full twenty minutes of effort coming to exactly the same conclusion, and doing absolutely nothing towards "reeducating" the police force other than to convince them that foreign people are all latent troublemakers? You understand nothing about becoming a martyr for the cause. And how do you fill your "living in Japan" blog with content?

You're right. I'd make a lousy activist.

I shall reluctantly turn in my Debito card (<- see what I did there?) at the nearest opportunity ... like next time I go to the toilet.

[kurogane]

Yeah, after a bunch of quibbling BS he eventually admits that is a problem "that needs to be fixed"
So, in short, to summarise LaFatty's argument: it is your Inalienable Right to not produce your FG status card when asked by the authorities..................except that it is your duty to do so.
From my glance at it his argument turns on your right to ask the authorities for proper ID before producing your own.
Yes, he actually advocates playing I'll show you mine if you show me yours with police, over an ID check.

Anyways, thanks. I remember the Little Blue Books. Aaaaah............and the bad 80s hair

[wagyl]

Just to clarify, the obligation to carry, and to present to a limited class of officials (as Yokohammer explained: immigration, police and coast guard) continues with the Zairyu Card system http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/newimmiact_1/ ... html#q41-a

[wagyl]

Yes, he actually advocates playing I'll show you mine if you show me yours with police, over an ID check.

Well, how else can you be sure who has is the biggest dick?

[kurogane]

Just to clarify, the obligation to carry, and to present to a limited class of officials (as Yokohammer explained: immigration, police and coast guard) continues with the Zairyu Card system http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/newimmiact_1/ ... html#q41-a

Well done. Always nice to clarify. I wondered about exactly that when you mentioned that the old law was out of date.

Oh, BTW, I agree with what Yokohammer said about hotel front staff asking for it wrongly (and fuck 'em...politely, of course), but I have noticed I only get asked about half the time since I have been re-touristed. There was a brief spurt when they first introduced the law and a few kerfuffles, so I wonder if they work by gut instinct or if they have been told or trained not to ask if somebody is obviously fluent and comfortable in Japanese (and therefore appears to live there), not to mention obviously well hung and with an impish glint in his baby blue eyes?

[wagyl]

Just to clarify, the obligation to carry, and to present to a limited class of officials (as Yokohammer explained: immigration, police and coast guard) continues with the Zairyu Card system http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/newimmiact_1/ ... html#q41-a

Well done. Always nice to clarify. I wondered about exactly that when you mentioned that the old law was out of date.

Oh, BTW, I agree with what Yokohammer said about hotel front staff asking for it wrongly (and fuck 'em...politely, of course), but I have noticed I only get asked about half the time since I have been re-touristed. There was a brief spurt when they first introduced the law and a few kerfuffles, so I wonder if they work by gut instinct or if they have been told or trained not to ask if somebody is obviously fluent and comfortable in Japanese (and therefore appears to live there), not to mention obviously well hung and with an impish glint in his baby blue eyes?

Having worked with people in the hotel industry, I get the very strong impression that in many cases they can't be bothered keeping the record of foreign guests, and they are never asked to show it to anyone anyway, and it is almost impossible for any official to say "this record is incorrect: there was a non-resident foreigner staying at your hotel on xx date but you have not made a record of that fact," so it is widely ignored. Similarly for ferry travel, I get asked about once every twenty journeys, and only by the new staff just out of training (not because I am a known face, but because they have not become jaded).

For those interested in chapter and verse, the requirement to carry a passport or equivalent is in Article 23 of the Immigration Control and Refugee Recognition Act.

[Samurai_Jerk]

The law also says that the cops can't ask you for ID unless you seem suspicious (very vague I know) which means without probable cause they have no reason to ask to see you ZRC so it's very reasonable to argue that they don't have a right to ask just because you look foreign. I won't show ID of any kind to a pig or give him my name or any other information unless there's a good reason to ask for it.

[Coligny]

...
Yokohammer,
I agree, but what I was asking was whether it is actually a legal requirement to do so, not a reasonable and practical compromise, though I fully agree with you, always do so, and never mind when asked, though I have had a few Okinawan cops be rather brusque and presumptuous, which hurt my feelings.

My understanding is that it is a legal requirement. Cops, immigration officials, coast guard ... you are required by law to produce on request. Hotel desk staff can go fuck themselves (unless you're temporary and have no fixed address in japan).

Back in the good old days when our Alien Registration cards were actually little booklets, that requirement and the attendant laws were printed in it. That was before smartphones, of course, so if you really needed something to read on the train, there it was.

Yup... no need to escalade any situation (unless the nurse is a shithead).

Now... why are we talking of this... just because Takechimp got a stiffy by posting dubious youtube videos and stirred this old dry shit in a fresh buckit of diarrhea.
Its like starting with some new-news and being tricked funneling back to the same old -non-news...

[wagyl]

The law also says that the cops can't ask you for ID unless you seem suspicious (very vague I know) which means without probable cause they have no reason to ask to see you ZRC so it's very reasonable to argue that they don't have a right to ask just because you look foreign. I won't show ID of any kind to a pig or give him my name or any other information unless there's a good reason to ask for it.

Mr Jerk, your pockets appear to be very empty to me. I have a suspicion that you are not carrying your passport or zairyu card, which means that I suspect you committing an offence.

it is easy to manufacture probable cause. It might require a little more imagination that your average porker, but those boys learn fast.

There is the ploy used in Fuyajo, by the half-Taiwanese protagonist: just insist you are Japanese, who don't have equivalent ID or any requirement to show.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Mr Jerk, your pockets appear to be very empty to me. I have a suspicion that you are not carrying your passport or zairyu card, which means that I suspect you committing an offence.

it is easy to manufacture probable cause. It might require a little more imagination that your average porker, but those boys learn fast.

There is the ploy used in Fuyajo, by the half-Taiwanese protagonist: just insist you are Japanese, who don't have equivalent ID or any requirement to show.

Did you check my kinchaku?

Right but the one time I had to deal with a bullshit stop and asked what the probable cause was, the cop didn't do a very good job of coming up with anything. So I refused and he eventually sent me on my way. Of course it was a lazy Saturday evening where I had taken a break from doing nothing to walk the few hundred meters from my apartment to the 7-11 to buy a couple of onigiri so I had time to kill.

[IparryU]

The law also says that the cops can't ask you for ID unless you seem suspicious (very vague I know) which means without probable cause they have no reason to ask to see you ZRC so it's very reasonable to argue that they don't have a right to ask just because you look foreign. I won't show ID of any kind to a pig or give him my name or any other information unless there's a good reason to ask for it.

Well, shit dont work like that my man. They ask, you give. Your refusal to not give is a reason for them to check as you are acting like a suspicious gaijin. Been there done that way too many times. Just give them the same treatment and ask for their ID, to see the hologram thing on the back of their badge, write down all the names. No you cannot take pictures, no you cannot use your phone to make a note. You may be entitled to, but if you are "potentially recording audio", then they can say no phone.

Well, since I am here... I was in akiba last month, was at an arcade with some friends and needed to refill my chuhai. Get my chuhai and hear some yelling and go to do what any other good Samaritan would do... videotape it. Was recording for about 30 seconds and was about to leave, then this Japanese dude just starts bitch slapping this maid. Like not little taps, hand all the way back, full swing, man strength hits to the face and many of them. Cops are already there and just watching dude slap down this maid... Somehow in the middle of this, the girl sees me and runs too me... Bitch dont ask for help, she starts screaming "privacy! privacy! delete now!!!". She was Chinese from what I could get from her accent.

Now the fucking cops come over and tell me to delete. Like, dude hitting the girl was not a big deal at all. The girl tried grabs my phone and I resist. Then the cop grabs my hands and I ask for his ID, badge, etc.... that wasn't working and the whole group came over, including the dude who was hitting the girl. Something didn't seem right, so I just decided to delete the video and got the fuck out.

Tried to recover the video, was about 500 MB and with all the recovery software, I was unable to get it. Was fragmented into like 20 files that were all about 500 MB. That would have been some gold to post a vid of cops watching a guy beat a girl down.

[wagyl]

Did you check my kinchaku?

You had it pretty much out on full display.....

[Samurai_Jerk]

Well, shit dont work like that my man. They ask, you give. Your refusal to not give is a reason for them to check as you are acting like a suspicious gaijin.

Except it worked for me. Probably because I'm not a shady cholo.

Now give us a fucking update already.

[matsuki]

That show is inflammatory rubbish, but anybody taking exception to the actual police work needs to have their head examined. Anywhere but Japan and they would have beat him until he bled for that.

My real issue with it is they literally pulled him over for driving while black. The dude was driving/here illegally and his "dash" was good fun which ended in noone dead so that's all good...but catching those violations should be during legit traffic stops....not "hey, that guy looks foreign, should we go get em?" which, if legal, is even more bullshit harassment than the Zairyu card deal. Maybe I need to limo tint my entire van....or...

Just to clarify, any FG must carry and produce upon demand identification showing their status, no? Whether that is right or wrong to a Righteous Sovereign Citizen it is the law, and I think somewhat different from your recent stop or the Ikebukuro guy now suing them. If he hadn't been a scofflaw and a scumbag he would have been sent on his way with a polite thank you.

It's not worth my time to argue over whether I need to show them my ID. 9/10 times they are only asking to see you have one and don't bother actually reading it. 30 wasted seconds, no big deal. If they're being a dick or it's leading somewhere else...as Coligny noted, my driving recorder may be ninja cam status but if you ask to see their ID, hold it up like you're examining it, you can record it with little effort without being obvious...should you need to use any info from it..

[kurogane]

Now give us a fucking update already.

Yes, great Debito story (seriously), well done, it is a culchural thang, to be fair, and yeah. I had a similar experience with 3 or 4 bicycles.
COP: This isn't your bicycle
ME: It doesn't matter if it's mine, it matters if it's stolen
COP: You mean reported stolen
ME: How would I know if it's been reported stolen, I didn't steal it, I bought it used. From a Tanzanian exchange student.
COP: Okiotsukeyase, okaeri kudasai
The rookies are way more fun. There was a couple of times where he was lucky he was armed. Some of those kids get downright Kamikaze. But we're not cholos either.

So.........Fuckin' Cholos, eh?

IPU,
BienF'in venidos back man. Hope you're bueno.

[wagyl]

shady cholo.

Be more polite on the shady cholo's birthday.

[kurogane]

My real issue with it is they literally pulled him over for driving while black.

I thought there was a report of some kind that initiated the patrol, which is how I took the Poissu,ne from the passenger cop. If it was a purely random stop of a Not Jpn then yes, unless driving without a licence has been identified as a common practice amongst that area's FGs (in Kyoto it was a huge issue with the SA Nikkei), and even then I would prefer probable cause, though he did speed off above the limit when they started the pursuit, so a speed stop seems enough. FTR, I don't like the way they make shit justifications up either, but that is a worldwide problem anyways. But I got a good laugh from him running, and his promises not to kill them .......either of them. I wonder if he listed his nationality as I'Gon'da on the arrest report?

Or do you think he meant Don't Kill Me? After 12 years of residence that would be pretty sad to not know the difference between the simple negative and the pleading imperative given his scofflaw tendencies.

[matsuki]

If that was the case, no foul....but unless they just robbed a conbini, why would there be a report after them? (and the passenger cop's "ikimasuka?" would have been an "ikimashou" no?)

Yeah, asshole cops and racial profiling are hardly a Japan-only occurrence but without summoning the full Debito spirit, I think it's a sadder case here because it's basically sanctioned SOP to go after visible FG simply because gaijin. Even if in the end it amounts to nothing more than wasted time and an inconvenience for those of us here legally and react to it in a reasonable manner, it's not exactly brownie points for the tourism/skilled immigration efforts as more and people are stopped like criminals for simply not being Japanese.

[Samurai_Jerk]

I think it's a sadder case here because it's basically sanctioned SOP to go after visible FG simply because gaijin.

[matsuki]

Yeah yeah, stating the obvious but it is worth noting that it seems to be getting worse lately.

[Wage Slave]

I think it's a sadder case here because it's basically sanctioned SOP to go after visible FG simply because gaijin.

Yeah. Oddly, I have been here eight and a half years and have not experienced a single instance of police attention except being asked to provide a breath sample once while the wife's village was having a festival. Every single driver was being checked.

I have had police cars in front of me, behind me and I have encountered speed traps and seatbelt traps - Yet I was never pulled over even though I am visibly gaijin. Very odd.

Once there was an unmarked police car behind me. I only know this because he pulled the car in the lane to my right for crashing a red light. I was judged not to have done so even though gaijin.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Yeah yeah, stating the obvious but it is worth noting that it seems to be getting worse lately.

No, I'm shocked you think that annoying people to see if they're legal is worse than summarily executing them in the streets.

[Wage Slave]

Yeah yeah, stating the obvious but it is worth noting that it seems to be getting worse lately.

No, I'm shocked you think that annoying people to see if they're legal is worse than summarily executing them in the streets.

Dying as a result of gunfire is regrettable but a good, fairly painless and honourable way to go?

[matsuki]

Yeah yeah, stating the obvious but it is worth noting that it seems to be getting worse lately.

No, I'm shocked you think that annoying people to see if they're legal is worse than summarily executing them in the streets.

Sadder case for profiling to make stops....not comparing how they handle the suspects after the stop as obviously the crazy shit going on in the US with cops shootin up everyone is much much worse.

[Russell]

I think it's a sadder case here because it's basically sanctioned SOP to go after visible FG simply because gaijin.

Yeah. Oddly, I have been here eight and a half years and have not experienced a single instance of police attention except being asked to provide a breath sample once while the wife's village was having a festival. Every single driver was being checked.

I have had police cars in front of me, behind me and I have encountered speed traps and seatbelt traps - Yet I was never pulled over even though I am visibly gaijin. Very odd.

Once there was an unmarked police car behind me. I only know this because he pulled the car in the lane to my right for crashing a red light. I was judged not to have done so even though gaijin.

Same experience, and I've been here three times longer than you.

It may also have something to do with the area we live. I seem to remember you are in Kansai, as I am. This kind of shit is less common here.

[wagyl]

Nah, you guys just don't have a trouble magnet.

[Yokohammer]

I have had a couple of encounters, but all of them a long time ago. Like 35 years or more. None were particularly disturbing, except for one a-hole cop who walked up to me as I was waiting for a friend at Kinshicho station, asked where I was from, and then pantomimed sticking a needle in his arm and pushing the plunger while asking "you do drugs"? The really weird part was that he didn't even ask to see my ID. Complete whacko.

[kurogane]

The ubiquitous bicycle checks aside, straight, spontaneous ID checks in Kyoto were uncommon, and really only happened during higher security events when they deployed hillbilly police to make up the numbers. And they're usually more comical than menacing, like YokoH's druggie cop friend.

Doppe, Mibunshumeishu mishte doppe

Matsuki,
If I get bored enough I'll review the first bit of that IGoneda'n video. I thought they were responding to a call not just trolling. As for the language use, no. There's always 3 ways to say anything, he used 1 of them. As for fully random stops for Being While FG, in principle, sure, in reality I give it a 0.23/10. Only hysterics like Debito should get truly upset by it. If illegal residence is perceived as a problem it behoves the cops to act on it. What doesn't behove them is to act like the locals and ask a foreigner why he has such a nice car even though he's an FG. That Ugandan is lucky if he didn't get phone booked at the station.

[Takechanpoo]

this is an often-seen phenomenon among gaijin fellows when you change your speaking language, even your personality gets changed, too.
"suimasen hai, suimasen suimasen hai hai" while bowing
most of you dudes behave like that, too when you speak japanese? right? eh?