Japanese Hospitals

[Takechanpoo]

Seirogan is dangerous......

product_seirogan_l.jpg

Seirogan is famous medicine for diarrhoea, toothache etc in japan. however most of j-pharmacists neither take it nor recommend it.
the main ingredient of Seirogan is creosote which is a strong poison and has no antidote for it.

クレオソートは、解毒剤がない劇薬のため、細胞や神経を傷害する高濃度の腐食性があり、血液障害、腎障害、がんの発症リスクを高める薬剤とされる。ただしは、腸液の分泌抑制・吸収促進、腸の蠕動抑制などによって下痢を止める作用はあるが、殺菌効果はない。

正露丸の安全性と有効性の根拠はまったくない。長期的にも短期的にも服用のリスクが高いので、一般医薬品としての価値は認められない。つまり、その毒性は許容できず、臨床効果は適切な臨床試験で証明されていないことから、販売を中止すべき

http://healthpress.jp/2016/07/post-2502.html

[matsuki]

I wonder how many "accidental" deaths are caused by it each year.

[wagyl]

Personally I regard all of these medications as little more than commercialisations of folk medicine, so normally I would support a call not to use them. However, I cannot support a claim that wood-tar creosote, as used in Seirogan, is the same substance as creosote industrially prepared from coal. In summary, I think there are reasons to avoid using Seirogan, but creosote is not one of them.

Interestingly enough, it seems that Seirogan was developed to combat infectious diseases in the military: principally typhoid fever and beri-beri (then considered to be an infectious disease in some circles). The name was originally 征露丸, capsule for the military campaign against Russia. Just like the "blood type links to personality" belief, use in the military lead to widespread popular use. The first character was changed to a homophone at the end of the second world war, when the defeat of Russia became a questionable claim.



Matsuki, you need to reactivate your bullshit detector, even if you choose whether to use it based on whose post you are reading.

[matsuki]

Wags - like you, I'm not a big fan of unnecessary meds. I've never even heard of the stuff til Take posted that. A toothache would send me to the dentist and diarrhea to the toilet...but most importantly, I would not take anything in a orange box with a trumpet noose...

[wagyl]

I've never even heard of the stuff til Take posted that.

Another marketing budget wasted then.

[Coligny]

Wags - like you, I'm not a big fan of unnecessary meds. I've never even heard of the stuff til Take posted that. A toothache would send me to the dentist and diarrhea to the toilet...but most importantly, I would not take anything in a orange box with a trumpet noose...

ehm... seirogan actually do work. the black pills smell is insanely strong and burn the tongue on contact. It tend to dull nerve response from whatever it touches so that actually works a bit for tooth aches. There is a more conventionnal version 'for travel' without smell and also lacking the toothache solving feature. Both are much less potent than anything containing loperamide.

[Wage Slave]

Wags - like you, I'm not a big fan of unnecessary meds. I've never even heard of the stuff til Take posted that. A toothache would send me to the dentist and diarrhea to the toilet...but most importantly, I would not take anything in a orange box with a trumpet noose...

ehm... seirogan actually do work. the black pills smell is insanely strong and burn the tongue on contact. It tend to dull nerve response from whatever it touches so that actually works a bit for tooth aches. There is a more conventionnal version 'for travel' without smell and also lacking the toothache solving feature. Both are much less potent than anything containing loperamide.

Yep, lopermide is my choice for that problem too. Can you get it here? I just bring a few back with me every now and again and use it so rarely I've never had to research local availability. It's out of patent now so dirt cheap too.

And yes. Surprise surprise Tacky gets it all wrong again. It's not the same kind of creosote at all. Hear what the Trumpet has to say on the matter:

https://www.seirogan.co.jp/en/research_dev/truth/creosote01.html

[wagyl]

Teaching another man to fish: look up loperamide in the English language wikipedia, find the 日本語 page link, and look for hints there. Local product name is ロペミン. It is not clear whether it is over the counter or requires a prescription.

[Takechanpoo]

And yes. Surprise surprise Tacky gets it all wrong again. It's not the same kind of creosote at all. Hear what the Trumpet has to say on the matter:

https://www.seirogan.co.jp/en/research_ ... ote01.html

the company producing seirogan once battled about cresote related thing against some tabloid which mistook creosote derived from coal for one derived from tree.
https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A5 ... 9.E5.88.A4
but the article i quoted says the one derived from tree is dangerous, too. just googletranslate and read it.

its so sad that all you can do is faultfinding and following someones assertion. its until undergraduate student that can be allowed to do that kind of things. i hope you get over what i made fun of english instructor as soon as possible.

[Wage Slave]

Teaching another man to fish: look up loperamide in the English language wikipedia, find the 日本語 page link, and look for hints there. Local product name is ロペミン. It is not clear whether it is over the counter or requires a prescription.

Actually, via another route it appears to be sold as Kaguradin and it is prescription.

http://www.kegg.jp/medicus-bin/japic_med?japic_code=00057700

[Wage Slave]

its so sad that all you can do is faultfinding and following someones assertion.

The thing is Tacky you find some bullshit on a flaky blog somewhere and accept it as the truth without any justification. Exactly the same with that non existent quote about Korean people. And you are still trying to argue it isn't a fabrication, even when your only source is some charlatan's blog that doesn't even say when and where the man was supposed to have said it.

[wagyl]

Teaching another man to fish: look up loperamide in the English language wikipedia, find the 日本語 page link, and look for hints there. Local product name is ロペミン. It is not clear whether it is over the counter or requires a prescription.

Actually, via another route it appears to be sold as Kaguradin and it is prescription.

http://www.kegg.jp/medicus-bin/japic_med?japic_code=00057700

From your link: CAGUDALIN

[Wage Slave]

Teaching another man to fish: look up loperamide in the English language wikipedia, find the 日本語 page link, and look for hints there. Local product name is ロペミン. It is not clear whether it is over the counter or requires a prescription.

Actually, via another route it appears to be sold as Kaguradin and it is prescription.

http://www.kegg.jp/medicus-bin/japic_med?japic_code=00057700

From your link: CAGUDALIN

Sorry, a transcription error. Plus c for k and l for r.

[Coligny]

Mine is "lopemid" certainly prescription since it use codeine/opiate derivative (usually bromhydrate or chlorhydrate ?) and you can get a high on it after swallowing 2 or 3 kg of the stuff... and stay constipated for the next 2 decades of your life...

I don't know a doctor even here who would refuse to prescribe this on request.

[matsuki]

I don't know a doctor even here who would refuse to prescribe this on request.

I usually research whatever symptoms I have and see what western hospitals would prescribe...surprisingly, the docs here have never refused anything I requested, even saying they're surprised I know enough to ask for something specific.

[matsuki]

Two years later and I have what I think is a bad case of strep throat right as Golden Week was starting. 2 hours of searching and absolutely no clinics nearby were open. Had to trudge 30 mins away to a larger hospital that tried to pull the same 1days worth of meds bullshit....I got them to go for 3 days worth but just took the last round a second ago and will definitely need more tomorrow. To make things more fun, every pharmacy in the area was closed. The local drug store pharmacists were all out and and once again, a 45min venture is what it took to get the meds. I wish I had just stayed home and rested...I almost passed out on the way to get the meds, high fever, no food, and the heat......waaay too much effort for this kind of bullshit. Fuck Goldenweek!

[Mike Oxlong]

Two years later and I have what I think is a bad case of strep throat right as Golden Week was starting. 2 hours of searching and absolutely no clinics nearby were open. Had to trudge 30 mins away to a larger hospital that tried to pull the same 1days worth of meds bullshit....I got them to go for 3 days worth but just took the last round a second ago and will definitely need more tomorrow. To make things more fun, every pharmacy in the area was closed. The local drug store pharmacists were all out and and once again, a 45min venture is what it took to get the meds. I wish I had just stayed home and rested...I almost passed out on the way to get the meds, high fever, no food, and the heat......waaay too much effort for this kind of bullshit. Fuck Goldenweek!

That sucks and the timing is the worst. Even the big hospitals close up and only keep the ER open during the holidays.

[Russell]

Two years later and I have what I think is a bad case of strep throat right as Golden Week was starting. 2 hours of searching and absolutely no clinics nearby were open. Had to trudge 30 mins away to a larger hospital that tried to pull the same 1days worth of meds bullshit....I got them to go for 3 days worth but just took the last round a second ago and will definitely need more tomorrow. To make things more fun, every pharmacy in the area was closed. The local drug store pharmacists were all out and and once again, a 45min venture is what it took to get the meds. I wish I had just stayed home and rested...I almost passed out on the way to get the meds, high fever, no food, and the heat......waaay too much effort for this kind of bullshit. Fuck Goldenweek!

So, did they give you antibiotics?

Wish you well.

[matsuki]

That sucks and the timing is the worst. Even the big hospitals close up and only keep the ER open during the holidays.

Yeah, the small clinic and pharmacy model is not so great during holidays like this. As you say, even the larger hospitals are on skeleton staff and only open in the AM....but still, why the fuck do they need to limit you to a days worth of meds? At least the doc was a decent enough guy.....the receptionist was a cold bitch with an attitude that obviously didn't want to be there.

So, did they give you antibiotics?

Wish you well.

Thanks

Yeah, but get this....I asked the pharmacist to pressure the doc into the max of 4 days worth....and in the end I ended up getting 2/3rd of the antibiotics he prescribed because the pharmacists took it upon herself to lower the dosage to what she considered to be the proper dosage for and adult I argued back but she claimed she called the doctor back and he agreed?? WTF?? I looked it up and in other countries 2 250-500mg doses per day are normal for children or adults. The doc had prescribed 3 200mg doses to which the pharmacists brought down to 2...despite my complaints that the average J-adult is 2/3rds my size. I wanted to murder someone that day....

[Grumpy Gramps]

Yet another medical place, where you only go twice; for the first and the last time.

O daiji ni!

[Coligny]

Yea... Japan... no power to small not to be abused...

My regular pharmacy double check if there is any dosage variation at renewal. But it never went further than
"you noticed this one was half/double the normal dose"
"Yup"
"All good then, try the veil"

And when they don't have enough stock to completely fullfill the prescription they drop by at the clinic to bring me the missing stuff few days after.

[Coligny]

Pocahontas...

Vus la quantite de paperasse et procedure pour les prescription, ca me semble... fuck...

Wait...
Let me try again:

Sooo..

judging by the amount of protocol and paperwork for prescription I find really super weird that a prescription could be altered that easily.
Starting with the doctor's hanko on the prescription paper...
There is no reason whatsoever for a pharmacist to be in posittion to say that the dose for a patient are too much/not enough. That's the job of the doctor... and usually they don't take too kindly third party interference like these. Having seen a cop being chewed up for not following protocol I don't know if a pharmacist would take that kind of risk...
Maybe be a bit complotist conspirationist but it smells like health insurance fraud...

[matsuki]

Grumpy - Last time using that hospital for the 3rd time. It's literally the only place open at night and on holidays and each time is some bizarre kind of new fail. Same place without any blood clotting spray in the ER and demanding 30,000 cash because computers are turned off after hours. (you can come back the next day to receive your receipt and change )

I asked her to call the doc and see if she could could giv me the maximum allowed 4-days worth. (said so on the prescription paper) She can back with "he said no, shukujitsudakalane" and this 2-jo instead of 3-jo bullshit. I noticed right away and complained....she went back and claimed she called again and doc agreed for her to change the prescription to 2. I smelled bullshit as I couldn't physically see her make the call....but I was literally about to pass out so just complained and paid. It's that pharmacy chain Tomod's so I guess I can file a complaint with the head office? The 400mg per day hasn't been so effective as I am prepping to go to a local clinic for more meds now, feeling almost as bad as I did before.

[wuchan]

Pocahontas...

Vus la quantite de paperasse et procedure pour les prescription, ca me semble... fuck...

Wait...
Let me try again:

Sooo..

judging by the amount of protocol and paperwork for prescription I find really super weird that a prescription could be altered that easily.
Starting with the doctor's hanko on the prescription paper...
There is no reason whatsoever for a pharmacist to be in posittion to say that the dose for a patient are too much/not enough. That's the job of the doctor... and usually they don't take too kindly third party interference like these. Having seen a cop being chewed up for not following protocol I don't know if a pharmacist would take that kind of risk...
Maybe be a bit complotist conspirationist but it smells like health insurance fraud...

99% of the time the Dr. owns the pharmacy you get your drugs from. The pharmacist answers back to the Dr. that gave you the prescription so, on paper, he was the one that changed the dose. Big hospitals are essentially the same in that the head of each department is on the management board and operate the hospital in their best interest.

However.... the pharmacist may have those powers. I just recently learned that dentists can prescribe AND distribute in the same building, from the same desk. Not sure how it works but they just tack it on the bill and hand you the pills after you pay.

[Coligny]

99% of the time the Dr. owns the pharmacy you get your drugs from. The pharmacist answers back to the Dr. that gave you the prescription so, on paper, he was the one that changed the dose. Big hospitals are essentially the same in that the head of each department is on the management board and operate the hospital in their best interest.

Yes always for mah dentist. And also the vet. But it's the exact opposite situation no ?

[Russell]

Grumpy - Last time using that hospital for the 3rd time. It's literally the only place open at night and on holidays and each time is some bizarre kind of new fail. Same place without any blood clotting spray in the ER and demanding 30,000 cash because computers are turned off after hours. (you can come back the next day to receive your receipt and change )

I asked her to call the doc and see if she could could giv me the maximum allowed 4-days worth. (said so on the prescription paper) She can back with "he said no, shukujitsudakalane" and this 2-jo instead of 3-jo bullshit. I noticed right away and complained....she went back and claimed she called again and doc agreed for her to change the prescription to 2. I smelled bullshit as I couldn't physically see her make the call....but I was literally about to pass out so just complained and paid. It's that pharmacy chain Tomod's so I guess I can file a complaint with the head office? The 400mg per day hasn't been so effective as I am prepping to go to a local clinic for more meds now, feeling almost as bad as I did before.

Are you sure it is not some kind of flu-like virus?

In the end of January I had a very sore throat and high fever (think 40 degrees Celsius), and I got antibiotics, but it didn't help. Staying in bed with the occasional pill to keep my temperature below 40 Celsius did help, though it took me a month to be completely free from cough.

I thought it was the flu, but all flu tests were negative. It seems there is some strain around that is like this.

[matsuki]

99% of the time the Dr. owns the pharmacy you get your drugs from. The pharmacist answers back to the Dr. that gave you the prescription so, on paper, he was the one that changed the dose. Big hospitals are essentially the same in that the head of each department is on the management board and operate the hospital in their best interest.

However.... the pharmacist may have those powers. I just recently learned that dentists can prescribe AND distribute in the same building, from the same desk. Not sure how it works but they just tack it on the bill and hand you the pills after you pay.

My usual clinic has a small wall of limited meds but this larger hospital just handed over the prescription and had no suggestions for pharmacies....which turned out to be terrible since everyone I tried was closed.

According to the doc/pharmacy I used today, it's some kind of government mandated bullshit flowchart dosage mentality. The drug is クラリス (clarithromycin) which is supposedly limit to 400mg per day for adults "by law." Basically, the explanation I got was the testing/trials for drugs like this for use in Japan are done only on Japanese people....so in many cases, the dosages are much lower and strictly controlled than what you would see in kaigailand. So you're basically stuck getting children's dosages of meds. (in some cases, even less)

I also noticed the fucker prescribed me calonol again. "For inflammation" he says. I need to remember it's nothing more than acetaminophen....which will help with the pain but not inflammation. Same issue with that mess....200mg pills, take 2, 3 times a day. My 'Merica bottle of extra strength Tylenol has 500mg tabs and says take 2 every 6 hours. Regular strength Tylenol is 325mg Tabs with the same take 2 every 6 hours. I tried the 400mg J-prescription acetaminophen last time...it simply doesn't work. Children's dosage is 500mg so that's hardly surprising....WTF.....

Are you sure it is not some kind of flu-like virus?

In the end of January I had a very sore throat and high fever (think 40 degrees Celsius), and I got antibiotics, but it didn't help. Staying in bed with the occasional pill to keep my temperature below 40 Celsius did help, though it took me a month to be completely free from cough.

I thought it was the flu, but all flu tests were negative. It seems there is some strain around that is like this.

Sounds exactly like what I have....was near 40 Wednesday morning, down to 37~37.5 now. Shit made me so tired I actually took a nap two days in a row...I never take naps.

[Takechanpoo]

werent you taught in your childhood that you could easily get sick before big holiday coming because you mental guard is down and then your immunity is also down so dont make your mental guard loose before it?

[Coligny]

werent you taught in your childhood that you could easily get sick because you mental guard is down and then your immunity is also down before big holiday coming?

Who ties your shoes for you every morning ?

[Russell]

Matsuki, be careful with Acetaminophen. Though it is a safe medicine, if you go over the maximal dose, it can be deadly. The tablets I have here were bought in the Netherlands (sold as Paracetamol), and they are 500 mg each. They prescribe maximally 2 tablets per time for adults, and maximally 6 tablets per 24 hours. That means maximally 2 tablets per 8 hours.

Acetaminophen kills pain and lowers fever, but it is not anti-inflammatory. If you take other medicines, check whether they also contain Acetaminophen, because some people are unaware that they also count towards the maximal dose.

If you overdose, go immediately to the hospital.