Fucked by Japanese landlords-your story wanted

[Coligny]

Didn't they update the/to pro tenant laws in tokyo few years back ?

[dimwit]

This guy took his landlord to small claims court and won.

I recently moved out of an apartment in Tokyo I'd been renting and living in for about about 2.5 years. I took good care of the place, and expected little trouble when moving out. Consequently, I was astounded and angered when I received a check-out bill for about JPY360,000 (amounting to 1.5 times the monthly rent, at the time $3,000) for cleaning and refurbisihing.

I swear that if half these landlords should be audited, as I would be willing to bet that all these fake charges are undeclared income.

[Mike Oxlong]

This guy took his landlord to small claims court and won.

I recently moved out of an apartment in Tokyo I'd been renting and living in for about about 2.5 years. I took good care of the place, and expected little trouble when moving out. Consequently, I was astounded and angered when I received a check-out bill for about JPY360,000 (amounting to 1.5 times the monthly rent, at the time $3,000) for cleaning and refurbisihing.

Part 1

Part 2

This post should be pinned to the top of each page in this topic.

[matsuki]

This guy took his landlord to small claims court and won.

I recently moved out of an apartment in Tokyo I'd been renting and living in for about about 2.5 years. I took good care of the place, and expected little trouble when moving out. Consequently, I was astounded and angered when I received a check-out bill for about JPY360,000 (amounting to 1.5 times the monthly rent, at the time $3,000) for cleaning and refurbisihing.

Part 1

Part 2

This post should be pinned to the top of each page in this topic.

Sorta....but sounds like the dude paid and then took the landlord to court to recover the BS fees. Then, agreed to still pay for a 8,000yen water filter? WTF? Why would you do that?

Pay the cleaning fee (60,000 cleaning fee?? WTF?!) and tell them you're not responsible for the rest and explain why, provide your evidence. If they disagree, it's on them to try small claims. (which is doubtful they will pursue)

[Samurai_Jerk]

This guy took his landlord to small claims court and won.

I recently moved out of an apartment in Tokyo I'd been renting and living in for about about 2.5 years. I took good care of the place, and expected little trouble when moving out. Consequently, I was astounded and angered when I received a check-out bill for about JPY360,000 (amounting to 1.5 times the monthly rent, at the time $3,000) for cleaning and refurbisihing.

Part 1

Part 2

This post should be pinned to the top of each page in this topic.

Sorta....but sounds like the dude paid and then took the landlord to court to recover the BS fees. Then, agreed to still pay for a 8,000yen water filter? WTF? Why would you do that?

Pay the cleaning fee (60,000 cleaning fee?? WTF?!) and tell them you're not responsible for the rest and explain why, provide your evidence. If they disagree, it's on them to try small claims. (which is doubtful they will pursue)

It's more likely she was holding onto his deposit. I've seen cleaning fees as much as 5 man for some newer mansions.

[Yokohammer]

Those "cleaning fees" often don't involve any actual cleaning.

[matsuki]

It's more likely she was holding onto his deposit. I've seen cleaning fees as much as 5 man for some newer mansions.

Ahhh, don't most just use the deposit to cover your last month's rent? I never had any issues like this but I think most people I know simply don't pay the last months rent and ask them to use the deposit to cover it. Haven't heard of any disputes arising from that. (yet?)

Those "cleaning fees" often don't involve any actual cleaning.

Right, but even for that kind of extortion, 60,000 is up there!

[Samurai_Jerk]

It's more likely she was holding onto his deposit. I've seen cleaning fees as much as 5 man for some newer mansions.

Ahhh, don't most just use the deposit to cover your last month's rent? I never had any issues like this but I think most people I know simply don't pay the last months rent and ask them to use the deposit to cover it. Haven't heard of any disputes arising from that. (yet?)

Two months' rent is a pretty standard deposit in Tokyo. Especially in places that charge 200,000 yen or more a month. You might know a number of people who just don't pay the last month's rent but they aren't supposed to do that. Plus a lot of landlords withdraw your rent automatically from your account so you'd have to make sure there were insufficient funds or ask your bank to stop the transaction which I'm not sure they would do.

[Taka-Okami]

I rented for four years in Kasugai and they were very fair when I moved out. I actually got 90% of money money back as I dont live like a pig. The thing that needed some work was a tatami mat that I had a table on. My Japanese neighbours moved out sometime before me, and I can understand the cleaning fee. Absolute pigs they were, filthy.

[matsuki]

Ugh, looking at moving to a location closer to work for a variety of reasons. Cheaper rent, free parking at the office, closer to downtown, the commute has been/seems will continue to be absolute shit as the road construction is never-ending. I forgot what a terrible experience this is as I've been at my current place about 6 years. Any agent suggestions in the Nakano/Nerima Area?

So far after a few weeks of searching:

1.) The "no gaijin allowed" rule is just as bad, if not worse than before. Last agent was quite nice and basically said "too many of the owners are crotchety old folks that are afraid of or can't be bothered to deal with foreigners....even if they never actually deal with them. He advised we be upfront about my unfortunate circumstance of not being We Japanese and the agents would likely use company-managed properties where gaijin-fearing landlords are not part of the equation.

2.) I have a dog....that makes this search even less fun if you want to be honest. Definitely seems to be more listing open to pet owners than before (can't wait til I run into a place that will allow pets but not FG ) but most are asking for an additional month's rent for either insurance purposes or as key money. The first two mansions that I visited that were pet friendly smelled like poop starting at the door. (really fucking gross) I understand they can't be bothered to understand different breeds and such but I find it quite silly that the restrictions for dogs is just "kogataken" ....which essentially means less than 10kg. (11.5kg in the real world) My pup is just under 10kg but like the usual blind adhesion to the rules, the agents have said "if they ask, make sure you say under 10kg! Very important!" Even in Japan it's recognized that the smaller the pup is, the more they bark. Considering the most popular small breeds here seem to be chihuahua, poms, poodles, and dachshunds, they're asking for noise and then the chihuahuas and dachshunds tend to relieve themselves wherever they please. (so why the size restriction?) The silliest part of all this so far is one agent warning us of bakkin for adding additional pets or moving in without a pet and bringing one in later. Almost makes me want to say fuck it and just not tell them I have a dog. According to many sources on the web, no pet clauses are not legally enforceable in Japan, several citing instances where Japanese courts have ruled that having a pet (like a baby) is a tenant’s inalienable right. (of course if the landlord lives nearby, things might not be to fun for you) Would be nice if this "right" to babies and pets was more publicized and simply removed from the equation from the getgo.

3.) False advertising is up. So far all the listings I've visited turned out to be total bullshit when it came to the floorplans. I never encountered this before but the listings are including walls, closets and massive protrusions into the rooms in their room-size calculations. WTF? One place was claiming to have a 12.5Jo main room turned out to be more like a 8jo room with pillars and a 2jo chunk of it being cut into by the apartment next door. (so more like a 6jo room) I imagine some places may exaggerate but so far each and every place I've seen had sizes that were 30~50% more than the actual rooms were.

4.) Reikin/Key money - Still in play everywhere I look. Possibly negotiable but still bullshit.

5.) Koshinryo - Anyone been able shake this mess from the beginning? I have never paid this at my current place, despite the Fudoyasan demanding it every two years. After I showed him a few things needing repair and him refusing to do anything. "Sonomamadeii" just meant I told him the same when he's asked about that first koshinryo. Fuck paying him a BS fee if he won't do his job. They can't legally kick you out if you're paying rent and as the courts have pointed out, "contract renewal fees are not legally justifiable and place an unnecessary burden on tenants." He still asks every 2 years via a letter in the mailbox but I have never paid.

[Mike Oxlong]

https://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q= ... 2F%20osaka

[Grumpy Gramps]

FG + pet is going to be a hard sell, good luck!

He still asks every 2 years via a letter in the mailbox but I have never paid.

Maybe you're red-flagged for this? These agencies do talk to one another, I am sure.

Landlords can make distinctions, when they put their places to the agencies, like "FG OK but no Chinese" But once one of the agencies refused my "Pets OK, but in case of exotic animals talk to me first". They can't/don't want to do things that make them think for more than half a second. And, AFAIK, if landlord doesn't mention it specifically, default for pets/FGs is "nope". Not always the landlord's fault, often enough agencies just want to make their own life as easy as possible.

And even though we have FG/pets OK with no restriction, agency would still call and ask before showing, if Chinese FG really are OK...

[matsuki]

FG + pet is going to be a hard sell, good luck!

He still asks every 2 years via a letter in the mailbox but I have never paid.

Maybe you're red-flagged for this? These agencies do talk to one another, I am sure.

Not possible in this case. Very local, very analog "agency" which is only a 2 person effort. Anyhow, I have a GF doing inquiries as well so yeah, it's definitely not hampering my efforts.

Landlords can make distinctions, when they put their places to the agencies, like "FG OK but no Chinese" But once one of the agencies refused my "Pets OK, but in case of exotic animals talk to me first". They can't/don't want to do things that make them think for more than half a second. And, AFAIK, if landlord doesn't mention it specifically, default for pets/FGs is "nope". Not always the landlord's fault, often enough agencies just want to make their own life as easy as possible.

And even though we have FG/pets OK with no restriction, agency would still call and ask before showing, if Chinese FG really are OK...

According to a recent study, only 40% of FG encounter this...seems way low but maybe in the inaka, things are friendlier? (or just more desperate for renters)

39.3 percent of 2,044 respondents who applied to rent apartments over the past five years got dismissed because they are not Japanese.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/0 ... QgpV1V96Uk

....and remember, FG are not human and renting out your property is hardly a business, so can't be a human rights issue:

Rosenhoj, a Belgian national, submitted a rental application through the university’s student co-op, which arranges apartments for its students. But he was told “matter-of-factly,” he said, that the apartment’s landlord had a no-foreigners policy and it was thus not available for him.
Angered by the move, Rosenhoj took his case to the ministry’s Kyoto bureau in June that year in the hope it would intervene. However, it was not until over a year later, in September 2014, that the bureau notified him by mail his case did not constitute a violation of his human rights.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2015/0 ... QgpXVV96Uk

Basically the law gives full discretion to landlords, including discrimination by race, nationality, marital status, etc. They are not prohibited from asking you anything, no matter how offensive or personal. Since FJ aren't protected from discrimination and such by law, everywhere you look it's the same "yes, there is a serious problem with discrimination when it comes to apartment hunting....but TIJ, shoganai." Couple that with the key money/koshinryo rape and add in some hoshounin fee and it's probably the most fucked you can be as a gaijin.

[wagyl]

I feel your pain. The best success I ever had was through personal contacts rather than through estate agents. You saw that place, Matsuki, and as I am sure you were aware there were reasons that that place was not suitable for the landlord to try to rent through an estate agent either. The personal introduction landlord to tenant, even through probably five degrees of separation, was crucial in my success. It didn't hurt that I was prepared to enjoy the experience of living in a 160+ year old farmhouse, and that many Japanese would avoid that at all costs, so the potential list of alternative tenants was probably zero.

Perhaps you can ask your boss to ask around in the local community there about possibilities. It can't do you any harm, and something might come to light.

[matsuki]

I feel your pain. The best success I ever had was through personal contacts rather than through estate agents. You saw that place, Matsuki, and as I am sure you were aware there were reasons that that place was not suitable for the landlord to try to rent through an estate agent either. The personal introduction landlord to tenant, even through probably five degrees of separation, was crucial in my success. It didn't hurt that I was prepared to enjoy the experience of living in a 160+ year old farmhouse, and that many Japanese would avoid that at all costs, so the potential list of alternative tenants was probably zero.

Perhaps you can ask your boss to ask around in the local community there about possibilities. It can't do you any harm, and something might come to light.

Good idea, can't hurt to ask.

I know the rent at my boss's rental property (somewhat nearby) is more than reasonable but they're not sure when the lone renter will move out. (one person of that couple has already made the move to the US and the remaining is claiming he will follow soon) If it's not too far off, may be worth the wait, assuming my boss wants to do some remodeling. (haven't seen inside but he is always saying how old/shitty it is...Tokyo Slumlord!)

[wagyl]

That is my point, as to why there were probably zero people waiting in a line for my place. The Japanese idea of old and shitty can be quite alright, with a little compromise. And you have shown yourself able to camp out in a van. Maybe you can talk to him about doing remodelling yourself while you are there to an agreed standard in the place of some of the rent ... this sort of thing is possible with a close relationship between the landlord and tenant, although do be aware that a less than arms length relationship can have disadvantages as well as advantages, and gives more potential for festering, unspoken conflict. But when it becomes difficult with "no gaijins or dogs" rules, well... the box, think outside of it motherfucker!

[matsuki]

I've lived under his roof before, I don't imagine it would be too difficult. Couple brewskiiiiis and he is a very happy man. I'd like to get out of my current place sooner than later though so we'll see.

[legion]

Buy a place, if you have enough money for the deposit the repayments on a loan are cheaper than rent.

[wagyl]

If you do follow that last bit of advice, do remember to factor in the kotei shisanzei payments, including any influence this has on your health insurance premiums, and also factor in the fact that you lose the flexibility you currently have to move to a different neighbourhood for any reason (or for no reason at all). Also factor in the lost opportunities to otherwise invest the money you have paid as the deposit. As yourself what value the house will have as a second hand house if you decide to sell in ten years time when you still have more than twenty years of that loan to pay.

Hell, if renting is as costly as Legion is suggesting it is, go whole hog and become a slumlord. Or at least ask him if being a landlord leveraged by a mortgage is a never lose, sure-fire proposition.

[legion]

There's a difference between buying "property" and buying a home. I recommend buying a home.

[matsuki]

Buy a place, if you have enough money for the deposit the repayments on a loan are cheaper than rent.

I don't yet have PR, it's apparently a basic requirement for such a loan. My girl makes more than I do but gets her payments in a place where the J-gov currently can't access (tax) so not exactly the best candidates for a loan.

Found it....pets ok, gaijin, not so much:

大変申し訳ありませんが、外国籍の方のご入居は難しいです。
宜しければ、ぜひ一度ご相談にいらして頂ければと思います。
ご連絡お待ちしております。

Sucks because it was so very near my office. I almost want to rent a plot of land and buy one of those bus-sized trailers to plop on it. Might have better insulation....

Or is this a call to just have the gf find a place, flat out don't disclose I have a pet or that I'm foreign, and tell them to get fucked if they complain afterwards? I mean, the law is on your side once you're moved in and all. (the only place where it's on your side) I definitely feel like the anti-furriner vibe is much stronger than the last time I was apartment hunting.

[Coligny]

Don't do to other what you don't want them to do to you.
But they started it...

So game on...

I mean... if you already have a bad rep -being from the gaijinkind- and have to bear consequences made up from old wives tale...
Might at least fullfill their fantasy and enjoy the ride...

And don't forget to sshit on the toilet water tank too...

[wagyl]

Yeah, go ahead and make it even tougher for yourself and every other foreigner in the future. Another bad example of someone who can't be trusted to follow the rules will both make your episode of holding out in your new place a very unpleasant experience, and deny you of an opportunity to impart a positive experience on an otherwise conservative landlord class.

I know it is tough, but the very strength of tenant rights is part of the reason they are so cagey about who they rent out to, whether that be based on sound reasons or not.

[matsuki]

the very strength of tenant rights is part of the reason they are so cagey about who they rent out to, whether that be based on sound reasons or not.

I totally understand this is why things are so here but remember why those rights were necessary in the first place. As an excuse for denying a place to someone based on nationality, that falls apart when there is already an insane deposit required, insurance required, and a Japanese guarantor required.

Yeah, go ahead and make it even tougher for yourself and every other foreigner in the future. Another bad example of someone who can't be trusted to follow the rules will both make your episode of holding out in your new place a very unpleasant experience, and deny you of an opportunity to impart a positive experience on an otherwise conservative landlord class.

If we take the dog out of the equation. Are you really against having my local girl handle the acquisition and leave the part about me being furrin out? The first place we visited, the agent literally had the "eeeeeeeeeee. you didn't mention he was gaijin? This changes everything." reaction.

And don't forget to sshit on the toilet water tank too...

I've only pulled off the "upper decker" once before. The aftermath was glorious enough to warrant some fury.

[wagyl]

If we take the dog out of the equation. Are you really against having my local girl handle the acquisition and leave the part about me being furrin out? The first place we visited, the agent literally had the "eeeeeeeeeee. you didn't mention he was gaijin? This changes everything." reaction.

I am not for or against anything. I do however think it is a bad idea, because the girlfriend is left to take the flak, and the landlord can get pretty bitchy and make life in your new pad very unpleasant for you both, especially if they think that she has deliberately withheld material information for fear that that disclosure would lead to rejection. Which is precisely what she is doing. The easy word for that is fraud. This is even more so if she will not be shacking up with you. What happens when the relationship sours? Especially when she now knows just how difficult it is for you to find somewhere to live. Or do your relationships never sour?

My view is that you think this is a solution to your problem. I think it is creating a greater problem in the long term. You don't have to take my advice, however.

[Mike Oxlong]

I suggested trying Gaijin Apartment Helper a while back. Didn't see a response. MIght be worth a shot to let them do the heavy lifting. You might not be the typical FOB noob that needs language help, but might benefit from their contacts and willingness to do the legwork.

[matsuki]

If we take the dog out of the equation. Are you really against having my local girl handle the acquisition and leave the part about me being furrin out? The first place we visited, the agent literally had the "eeeeeeeeeee. you didn't mention he was gaijin? This changes everything." reaction.

I am not for or against anything. I do however think it is a bad idea, because the girlfriend is left to take the flak, and the landlord can get pretty bitchy and make life in your new pad very unpleasant for you both, especially if they think that she has deliberately withheld material information for fear that that disclosure would lead to rejection. Which is precisely what she is doing. The easy word for that is fraud. This is even more so if she will not be shacking up with you. What happens when the relationship sours? Especially when she now knows just how difficult it is for you to find somewhere to live. Or do your relationships never sour?

My view is that you think this is a solution to your problem. I think it is creating a greater problem in the long term. You don't have to take my advice, however.

This would be cohabitation...but what are you suggesting the landlord could do to make life unpleasant? Fraud suggests some sort of wrongful deceit for a personal gain. Is this really a "wrongful" deceit? Should the same habitation enjoyed by Japanese be considered a personal "gain?" The only "fraud" I see is Japan parading itself as a first world country that promotes and protects human rights with all the declarations they have signed and have failed to act on. Obviously this is not my go to solution to the problem but at a certain point, if all other options are exhausted, what else can you do?

I suggested trying Gaijin Apartment Helper a while back. Didn't see a response. MIght be worth a shot to let them do the heavy lifting. You might not be the typical FOB noob that needs language help, but might benefit from their contacts and willingness to do the legwork.

Sorry, I totally missed that link. I'll check it out.

[Grumpy Gramps]

what else can you do?

If you're on good terms with your boss, he could rent a place as "company apartment", where he can place any of his employees as needed. Might be less difficult, also for the question of guarantor.

[matsuki]

what else can you do?

If you're on good terms with your boss, he could rent a place as "company apartment", where he can place any of his employees as needed. Might be less difficult, also for the question of guarantor.

Might be the same results as my idea above, though as you say, at least with that setup, the guarantor isn't an issue.

I'm pretty disgusted at how many of the responses are like above. Few more today....

[Grumpy Gramps]

It will likely be better imo, as the risk that the smelly gaijin hops on a plane to sombre gaijinland never to be seen again and "forgets" to pay his rent that he is already six months in arrears of and leaves 5m³ of trash in the place he never cleaned and then goes on the internet and brags about it in order for the landlord to read about it and take his conclusions, is smaller