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  • fuckedgaijin ‹ General ‹ F*cked News

Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Odd news from Japan and all things Japanese around the world.
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Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby Mike Oxlong » Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:48 am

Death by overwork on rise among Japan's vulnerable workers
Japan is witnessing a record number of compensation claims related to death from overwork, or "karoshi", a phenomenon previously associated with the long-suffering "salary man" that is increasingly afflicting young and female employees.

Labor demand, with 1.28 jobs per applicant, is the highest since 1991, which should help Prime Minister Shinzo Abe draw more people into the workforce to counter the effect of a shrinking population, but lax enforcement of labor laws means some businesses are simply squeezing more out of employees, sometimes with tragic consequences.

Claims for compensation for karoshi rose to a record high of 1,456 in the year to end-March 2015, according to labor ministry data, with cases concentrated in healthcare, social services, shipping and construction, which are all facing chronic worker shortages.

Hiroshi Kawahito, secretary general of the National Defense Counsel for Victims of karoshi, said the real number was probably 10 times higher, as the government is reluctant to recognize such incidents.

"The government hosts a lot of symposiums and makes posters about the problem, but this is propaganda," he said.

"The real problem is reducing working hours, and the government is not doing enough."

The labor ministry did not respond to requests for comment.

Kawahito, a lawyer who has been dealing with karoshi since the 1980s, said 95 percent of his cases used to be middle-aged men in white-collar jobs, but now about 20 percent are women.

Japan has no legal limits on working hours, but the labor ministry recognizes two types of karoshi: death from cardiovascular illness linked to overwork, and suicide following work-related mental stress.

A cardiovascular death is likely to be considered karoshi if an employee worked 100 hours of overtime in the month beforehand, or 80 hours of overtime in two or more consecutive months in the previous six.

A suicide could qualify if it follows an individual's working 160 hours or more of overtime in one month or more than 100 hours of overtime for three consecutive months.

Work-related suicides are up 45 percent in the past four years among those 29 and younger, and up 39 percent among women, labor ministry data show.

TWO-TIER WORKFORCE

The problem has become more acute as Japan's workforce has divided into two distinct categories - regular employees, and those on temporary or non-standard contracts, frequently women and younger people.

In 2015 non-regular employees made up 38 percent of the workforce, up from 20 percent in 1990, and 68 percent of them were women.

Lawyers and academic say unscrupulous employees operate a "bait-and-switch" policy, advertising a full-time position with reasonable working hours, but later offering the successful applicant a non-regular contract with longer hours, sometimes overnight or weekends, with no overtime pay.

Refusing overtime pay and break time are illegal, and the applicant could refuse the job, but activists say companies tell them they will be given regular contracts after six months or so.

They say young applicants often accept due to lack of experience, while women trying to re-enter the workforce after childbirth often feel it would be difficult to get a foothold elsewhere.

Emiko Teranishi, head of the Families Dealing with Karoshi support group, said she hears lots of complaints about hiring tactics, with some companies telling new hires that their salary includes 80 hours of overtime, and they must reimburse the company if they work less.

“Some people don’t even make minimum wage under this system,” said Teranishi, whose own husband committed suicide after working long hours.

Such abuses have become so common in the past 10 years that such companies have been dubbed "black" companies in the media.

Hirokazu Ouchi, a professor at Chukyo University, wrote a book last year about such companies when he realized some of his students were being treated illegally at their part-time jobs.

Ouchi said their hiring practices typically follow a similar pattern.

"Companies will hire someone for two to three years, but they have no intention of investing the time or the money to nurture that employee," said Ouchi.

He added that the labor ministry lacked the manpower to follow up on complaints.

A ministry official working in corporate surveillance acknowledged that his department was somewhat short-staffed but the government was taking steps to recruit more every year. He declined to give his name as he is not authorized to speak to the media.

Japan's working-age population has been falling since the mid-1990s, which would normally lead companies to improve working conditions to attract workers, but Ouchi said it was not happening because they can get away with bending the rules.

"This is a way for companies to keep labor costs down, but it is also a path that leads to death by overwork," he said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan ... SKCN0X000F
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby inflames » Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:54 pm

The problem is that the government doesn't give a shit about workers. Go to the government with proof a company is breaking the law and they just sit on their asses until they can clock out a minute after finishing.
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby Samurai_Jerk » Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:38 pm

inflames wrote:The problem is that the government doesn't give a shit about workers. Go to the government with proof a company is breaking the law and they just sit on their asses until they can clock out a minute after finishing.


It really does seem to be the Japanese way to make laws but then not bother to enforce them and labor laws are a good example of this. On paper Japan seems to have a lot of protection for employees but when you actually bring a well-documented claim to the labor office, all they'll do is give the employer a call to remind them of the labor standards and encourage them to come to a compromise with you. I understand they can't just take what a employee says at face value but you wish they'd actually investigate and punish these "black kigyou." Your only recourse is to sue but even if you win it's usually not enough to make it worth your while so most people just take a small compromise payment from their employer in exchange for signing away their right to pursue any future action against them.
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby matsuki » Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:26 pm

Samurai_Jerk wrote:
inflames wrote:The problem is that the government doesn't give a shit about workers. Go to the government with proof a company is breaking the law and they just sit on their asses until they can clock out a minute after finishing.


It really does seem to be the Japanese way to make laws but then not bother to enforce them and labor laws are a good example of this. On paper Japan seems to have a lot of protection for employees but when you actually bring a well-documented claim to the labor office, all they'll do is give the employer a call to remind them of the labor standards and encourage them to come to a compromise with you. I understand they can't just take what a employee says at face value but you wish they'd actually investigate and punish these "black kigyou." Your only recourse is to sue but even if you win it's usually not enough to make it worth your while so most people just take a small compromise payment from their employer in exchange for signing away their right to pursue any future action against them.


Pretty much this...it seems like the laws are basically there for you to enforce at your own expense. (and for the gov to have something on paper that makes it look like no problem exists)
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby wuchan » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:12 pm

the problem begins in the government. For example, a friend of mine works for the finance ministry. I was in Tokyo and asked him if he wanted to go for some (good) beers after work. Now I knew he worked late but I wasn't prepared for how late. He turned down the offer because he usually takes a taxi home. So I did the American thing and asked "why?". "Because I usually finish at 1:30 AM."

Tis very strange conversation continued and I learned a few things. First, his salary is shit and so is everyone else's that works for a ministry. Second, there is a rule that says he must live within a certain distance of the office.

This poor fucker had to work all that overtime just to be able to afford the apartment he needed in order to keep his job and feed his family. The best part was when he said "Well, at least they don't care if I sleep at work!"
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby Yokohammer » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:15 pm

wuchan wrote: ... there is a rule that says he must live within a certain distance of the office.

Sorta like the tech and IT firms in the US that thoughtfully provide sleeping space in the office so employees don't have to go home ... except that those poor fuckers make really good money.
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby matsuki » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:25 pm

wuchan wrote:So I did the American thing and asked "why?".


You mean the normal human thing? How he can justify making the decision to work there is beyond me.

One hockey dude I know got a decent job at a foreign firm...but when the firm replaced the head honcho with a local, things went from gaishikei work style to the local style, vertical grind. Productivity, sales, etc. are all down since the management change....but everyone is working tons of saabisu zangyo and there is plenty of ganbare :roll: His excuse for staying on board is one I hear quite often...they want to stick it out for the experience and put in a year or two under their belt before seeking work elsewhere. (afraid of looking disloyal to the next potential employer)
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby Samurai_Jerk » Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:05 pm

matsuki wrote:things went from gaishikei work style to the local style, vertical grind.


Dude, a lot of the expat management at gaishikei take full advantage of the locals and can be even worse than Japanese managers. Of course they have no problem doing things European style when it comes to themselves.
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby kurogane » Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:12 am

Hmph. You make it sound as though Japanese aren't the only corporate types that don't know what they're doing and couldn't give a shit if they do or not. Dangerous thoughts my friend...................dangerous........
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby Samurai_Jerk » Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:12 am

kurogane wrote:Hmph. You make it sound as though Japanese aren't the only corporate types that don't know what they're doing and couldn't give a shit if they do or not. Dangerous thoughts my friend...................dangerous........


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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby inflames » Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:36 pm

matsuki wrote:His excuse for staying on board is one I hear quite often...they want to stick it out for the experience and put in a year or two under their belt before seeking work elsewhere. (afraid of looking disloyal to the next potential employer)

I met a fair number of hiring managers at my old job, plus some of my friends from school are hiring managers now - if you work less than a 2 years (or so, without a very good reason), they look down on you when applying for jobs. It all depends on the reason, but if you say you don't like overtime and were working late, they still hold it against you - every job has busy periods when you basically have to do overtime.
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby matsuki » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:20 pm

Samurai_Jerk wrote:
matsuki wrote:things went from gaishikei work style to the local style, vertical grind.


Dude, a lot of the expat management at gaishikei take full advantage of the locals and can be even worse than Japanese managers. Of course they have no problem doing things European style when it comes to themselves.


Of course that happens, I know a guy who is managing an Italian-owned Pizza place that is like that...but when he visited the Italian branches, it was nothing like how he was being pushed to work. My point is that local style is fucked and isn't very productive.
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby Coligny » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:29 pm

Work hard not smart...
Japan inc.
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby Yokohammer » Tue Apr 05, 2016 2:55 pm

I have clients who often work into the wee hours, but anything they churn out after around 9 or 10 PM is usually incoherent garbage because they're just spent by then. And yet they soldier on, bleary-eyed and incapable of rubbing two sticks together, turning out detritus that will then take twice as long to straighten out. So yeah, productive it isn't.
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby matsuki » Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:19 pm



Sorry Kobe....in Japan image is EVERYTHING!!!

Ganbareganbareganbarjkehjkhksdfjhlkdhuioghdf
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby kurogane » Tue Apr 05, 2016 6:39 pm

Samurai_Jerk wrote: Is that a quadruple negative?


Thank you. I tried to put some effort into that one.
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby matsuki » Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:22 pm

Karaoshi cha-cha-cha! Karaoshi cha-cha-cha! Karaoshi cha-cha-cha!

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39981997

Japan may have some of the longest working hours it is the least productive of the G7 group of developed economies


Official figures put cases of karoshi in the hundreds each year, counting heart attacks, strokes and suicides. But campaigners say the real figure is much higher.
Nearly a quarter of Japanese companies have employees working more than 80 hours overtime a month, often unpaid, a recent survey found. And 12% have employees breaking the 100 hours a month mark.
Those numbers are important; 80 hours overtime a month is regarded as the threshold above which you have an increased chance of dying.
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby J.A.F.O » Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:15 pm

I'm doing my part to bring that average down as much as I can! I'm just here to help :)
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby Coligny » Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:22 am

J.A.F.O wrote:I'm doing my part to bring that average down as much as I can! I'm just here to help :)



Opa... we should unionize..

Last time I checked those stats we had the least working hours and maximum productivity while the locals here wuz behind the farking italians... and I ask again... have you ever seen an Italian working ?

Also would like to know how Vietnam fares... because everytime I go there the only thing I see the locals do is chilling outside eating something at those roadside foodstands...


At least japan can keep its motto... "work harder, not smarter..."
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby Screwed-down Hairdo » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:28 am

Coligny wrote:Opa... we should unionize..

Last time I checked those stats we had the least working hours and maximum productivity while the locals here wuz behind the farking italians... and I ask again... have you ever seen an Italian working ?


Europeans know how to live, thanks in large part to unions.
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby matsuki » Mon Jun 05, 2017 12:01 pm

Screwed-down Hairdo wrote:
Coligny wrote:Opa... we should unionize..

Last time I checked those stats we had the least working hours and maximum productivity while the locals here wuz behind the farking italians... and I ask again... have you ever seen an Italian working ?


Europeans know how to live, thanks in large part to unions.


One of my friends was bitching about this "Japaneeeeze hard work culture" bullshit last night. Complaining bout how many hours he's stuck at work because the boss won't go home or tell them they can leave...yet at the same time talking about how hard working Japanese are because so many of them have health issues due to work stress, lack of sleep, and just being overworked. They seem proud of karaoshi being a "Japaneeeze thing" born conceded Korea may have similar issues. I guess taking both sides of the argument to fit you needs must be an example of unique Japanese case by case theory?
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby J.A.F.O » Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:28 pm

matsuki wrote:
Screwed-down Hairdo wrote:
Coligny wrote:Opa... we should unionize..

Last time I checked those stats we had the least working hours and maximum productivity while the locals here wuz behind the farking italians... and I ask again... have you ever seen an Italian working ?


Europeans know how to live, thanks in large part to unions.


One of my friends was bitching about this "Japaneeeeze hard work culture" bullshit last night. Complaining bout how many hours he's stuck at work because the boss won't go home or tell them they can leave...yet at the same time talking about how hard working Japanese are because so many of them have health issues due to work stress, lack of sleep, and just being overworked. They seem proud of karaoshi being a "Japaneeeze thing" born conceded Korea may have similar issues. I guess taking both sides of the argument to fit you needs must be an example of unique Japanese case by case theory?


Compared to the mainlanders the okinawans are lazy as fuck... but usually have a different set of health issues... like failing liver and diabetus... domestic violence. 8-O
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby matsuki » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:13 pm

J.A.F.O wrote:
matsuki wrote:
Screwed-down Hairdo wrote:
Coligny wrote:Opa... we should unionize..

Last time I checked those stats we had the least working hours and maximum productivity while the locals here wuz behind the farking italians... and I ask again... have you ever seen an Italian working ?


Europeans know how to live, thanks in large part to unions.


One of my friends was bitching about this "Japaneeeeze hard work culture" bullshit last night. Complaining bout how many hours he's stuck at work because the boss won't go home or tell them they can leave...yet at the same time talking about how hard working Japanese are because so many of them have health issues due to work stress, lack of sleep, and just being overworked. They seem proud of karaoshi being a "Japaneeeze thing" born conceded Korea may have similar issues. I guess taking both sides of the argument to fit you needs must be an example of unique Japanese case by case theory?


Compared to the mainlanders the okinawans are lazy as fuck... but usually have a different set of health issues... like failing liver and diabetus... domestic violence. 8-O


DV is just a bizarre topic here...waaaaay tooo common and yet most of the locals are under the impression it's not an issue and DV is more of a gaijin thing. :roll: (Pssst, the passive aggressive bomb has to explode somewhere)
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby J.A.F.O » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:29 pm

matsuki wrote:DV is just a bizarre topic here...waaaaay tooo common and yet most of the locals are under the impression it's not an issue and DV is more of a gaijin thing. :roll: (Pssst, the passive aggressive bomb has to explode somewhere)


It's funny everytime I go back to the states or listen to the AFN radio station. Huge campaigns against domestic violence, almost as if you can't stop Murican's from beatin they wives at the grocery store... I've been to the middle east and a lot in asia... I'm just sitting back thinking "Thank your lucky stars you weren't born in one of those places" Never hear american feminist wanting to go somewhere else to combat sexism. lol
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby matsuki » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:06 pm

J.A.F.O wrote:
matsuki wrote:DV is just a bizarre topic here...waaaaay tooo common and yet most of the locals are under the impression it's not an issue and DV is more of a gaijin thing. :roll: (Pssst, the passive aggressive bomb has to explode somewhere)


It's funny everytime I go back to the states or listen to the AFN radio station. Huge campaigns against domestic violence, almost as if you can't stop Murican's from beatin they wives at the grocery store... I've been to the middle east and a lot in asia... I'm just sitting back thinking "Thank your lucky stars you weren't born in one of those places" Never hear american feminist wanting to go somewhere else to combat sexism. lol


I've caused more than a few drunk arguments between Persian/African drinking buddies and annoying woman who can't stop themselves from saying empowering and feminism with every breath. "Tell my buddy Tunde over here what your thoughts are on charging a husband with the crime of raping his wife...." :wink: At least they aren't shy about it?
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby J.A.F.O » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:27 pm

No spousal rape in jap land last I heard right?
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby matsuki » Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:39 pm

J.A.F.O wrote:No spousal rape in jap land last I heard right?


If there is, it sure as hell isn't enforced.
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby Coligny » Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:55 am

J.A.F.O wrote:No spousal rape in jap land last I heard right?


It's called "theft of service" ya f00kin n00b...
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby J.A.F.O » Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:33 pm

Coligny wrote:
J.A.F.O wrote:No spousal rape in jap land last I heard right?


It's called "theft of service" ya f00kin n00b...


Well maybe if I was putting her on a corner.
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Re: Karoshi's not just for salarymen anymore!

Postby Buraku » Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:45 am

Panasonic to pay redress to family in ‘karoshi’ case
https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/14497149
Kamala Harris staffer is ripped online for tweet about 'loving' working for the VP despite her being branded a 'bully', four staffers quitting in space of two weeks
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ng-VP.html
'Rhetoric Not Enough for Japan’s Working Women'
https://thediplomat.com/2013/10/rhetori ... ing-women/
Beate Sirota Gordon, the daughter of Russian Jewish parents who at 22 almost single-handedly wrote women’s rights into the Constitution of modern Japan, and then kept silent about it for decades, only to become a feminist heroine there in recent years
http://japanbizz.com/2021/01/06/jewish- ... n-forever/

She also collected another of those babylon masonic type Order of the Sacred Treasure medals.
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