Shit! Coronavirus may also be transmitted via infected feces

[yanpa]

Scientists say a now-dominant strain of the coronavirus appears to be more contagious than original

Scientists have identified a new strain of the coronavirus that has become dominant worldwide and appears to be more contagious than the versions that spread in the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic, according to a new study led by scientists at Los Alamos National Laboratory.

The new strain appeared in February in Europe, migrated quickly to the East Coast of the United States and has been the dominant strain across the world since mid-March, the scientists wrote.

In addition to spreading faster, it may make people vulnerable to a second infection after a first bout with the disease, the report warned.

[matsuki]

Trump can suck it but whether it's of a lab (I mean accidentally leaked, not man man or intentionally released) or wet market origin, what concerns me most is that the conditions were there and when shit hit the fan, the CCP went into cover up mode. The proceed in locking down Wuhan to travel within China, but allowed people to fly out of the country directly from Wuhan. We don't know that the intent was to infect the rest of the world but regardless of intent, the cover up of the outbreak deprived us valuable information and time.

There does need to be an investigation for all our sakes, but it would be far better if it were conducted by a group of scientists from a range countries. The WHO perhaps with a new leader. I'm really not sure about how bad he was and how much he could tell China to do. The thing is the WHO and UN more widely has no power unless the member nations stand with it and the president is apparently set on doing the opposite.

In my opinion, the WHO lost credibility for being unbiased the second it started to praise the CCP for swift action, transparency, and saving lives. That speaks volumes to undue influence though, without an investigation, we don't know the extent of this corruption or if was bending over backwards to keep China at the table. Any team that goes in there will probably need to be purpose built, international, and fully transparent. China is pushing back against any form of investigation...that pretty much goes against the spirit of the WHO/IHR.

[Wage Slave]

We know very well that keeping China at the table is not easy - Nature of the beast. And we have, for financial gain, been prepared thus far to ignore or at least hold our nose over an awful lot of misdeeds, up to and including massacring students, in order to remain engaged. The WHO is probably guilty of some of that but who isn't? And if China lied to the WHO and the world, who exactly is to blame for that? China or the WHO?

but regardless of intent, the cover up of the outbreak deprived us valuable information and time.

Perhaps, but given the fact that most countries had been more than fully informed by the end of January and then proceeded to do very little about it through February, I have my doubts. It wasn't until the cases and deaths took off in late March that anyone did anything. That is an important lesson and is in danger of being lost in the rush to blame China for everything.

[matsuki]

We know very well that keeping China at the table is not easy - Nature of the beast. And we have, for financial gain, been prepared thus far to ignore or at least hold our nose over an awful lot of misdeeds, up to and including massacring students, in order to remain engaged. The WHO is probably guilty of some of that but who isn't? And if China lied to the WHO and the world, who exactly is to blame for that? China or the WHO?

Most likely both IMO.

What have we gained by keeping China at the table? False info? They sure as hell aren't meeting their obligations as a WHO member...and now they're on the UN human rights board and using it to downplay their own offenses.

Perhaps, but given the fact that most countries had been more than fully informed by the end of January and then proceeded to do very little about it through February, I have my doubts. It wasn't until the cases and deaths took off in late March that anyone did anything. That is an important lesson and is in danger of being lost in the rush to blame China for everything.

I get where you're coming from and definitely agree the reaction was shit....but I think it would have been better had we known what China knew 1-2 months before. (bit more scary than what we knew at the time) Not to mention all the PPE that was given to China as aid, purchased by the Chinese government around the world, before the world woke up to the seriousness.

[Grumpy Gramps]

What have we gained by keeping China at the table?

Rare Earths, cheap goods. The world is currently dependent on China for so many things. If they would close the door on us, we'd be running in circles, screeming and shouting.

[matsuki]

What have we gained by keeping China at the table?

Rare Earths, cheap goods. The world is currently dependent on China for so many things. If they would close the door on us, we'd be running in circles, screeming and shouting.

I meant in regards to the WHO but yeah, in general you're on point. The question now is how much production gets moved back to each country.

[Wage Slave]

What have we gained by keeping China at the table?

Rare Earths, cheap goods. The world is currently dependent on China for so many things. If they would close the door on us, we'd be running in circles, screeming and shouting.

I meant in regards to the WHO but yeah, in general you're on point. The question now is how much production gets moved back to each country.

Business being business, I would guess very little. Some might move to other low wage countries but I'll bet very little moves back to the high wage countries.

[Wage Slave]

We know very well that keeping China at the table is not easy - Nature of the beast. And we have, for financial gain, been prepared thus far to ignore or at least hold our nose over an awful lot of misdeeds, up to and including massacring students, in order to remain engaged. The WHO is probably guilty of some of that but who isn't? And if China lied to the WHO and the world, who exactly is to blame for that? China or the WHO?

Most likely both IMO.

What have we gained by keeping China at the table? False info? They sure as hell aren't meeting their obligations as a WHO member...and now they're on the UN human rights board and using it to downplay their own offenses.

Perhaps, but given the fact that most countries had been more than fully informed by the end of January and then proceeded to do very little about it through February, I have my doubts. It wasn't until the cases and deaths took off in late March that anyone did anything. That is an important lesson and is in danger of being lost in the rush to blame China for everything.

I get where you're coming from and definitely agree the reaction was shit....but I think it would have been better had we known what China knew 1-2 months before. (bit more scary than what we knew at the time) Not to mention all the PPE that was given to China as aid, purchased by the Chinese government around the world, before the world woke up to the seriousness.

So if someone tells you a lie and you believe that lie in good faith having no way at your disposal to unmask the lie that makes you as guilty as the liar? I think you have a bit more to prove in respect of the WHO. And they did a very good job with ebola and many other things.

Do you have a source for all that stuff about PPE? And if our PPE was given to China as aid, then surely we DID know the seriousness of the situation otherwise why did we do it? There is evidence that the intelligence services (which the WHO doesn't have) uncovered and reported the threat back in November. The White House was not interested in it and passed it on to Israel and NATO who also were not interested. https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-alerted-israel-nato-to-disease-outbreak-in-china-in-november-report/

[matsuki]

So if someone tells you a lie and you believe that lie in good faith having no way at your disposal to unmask the lie that makes you as guilty as the liar? I think you have a bit more to prove in respect of the WHO. And they did a very good job with ebola and many other things.

Let me direct you to the 2005 IHR revisions...

3. Why were the IHR revised?
https://www.who.int/ihr/about/faq/en/#faq03
...some countries were reluctant to promptly report outbreaks of these diseases for fear of unwarranted and damaging travel and trade restrictions. A way needed to be found to increase the confidence of countries in reporting significant and/or unusual disease events, by linking early disclosure to prompt support and accurate information dissemination about the nature of the event.

The IHR (2005), which are firmly grounded in practical experience, broaden the scope of the 1969 Regulations to cover existing, new and re-emerging diseases, including emergencies caused by non-infectious disease agents.

Through a new legal framework, the IHR (2005) ensure a rapid gathering of information, a common understanding of what may constitute a public health emergency of international concern and the availability of international assistance to countries.

The new reporting procedures are aimed at expediting the flow of timely and accurate information to WHO about potential public health emergencies of international concern. WHO, as a neutral authority, with critical technical expertise and resources, and an extensive communications network can assess information, recommend actions and facilitate or help coordinate technical assistance, when needed, that is tailored to events as they unfold.

2005 IHR revisions (revisions prompted by the CCP's fuck up of SARS) authorized the WHO to act upon nonstate sources of information (Like maybe Taiwan? The whistleblowers? The reports out of China from citizens) and to question member states on their decision-making. (CCP arresting and censoring doctors?) They empowered the WHO director-general to declare an outbreak a public health emergency of international concern, even over the objections of the state or states most directly affected. (Instead CCP objections were heeded) The authority to name and shame those nations that do not comply with the IHR requirements on outbreak detection, trade and travel bans, and enforcement of human rights. (CCP is in violation of all of these, instead of shame they are being praised)

Not saying the whole WHO is fucked, my take is the CCP has a few key officials of the WHO in their pocket, being willfully ignorant, parroting the propaganda and tilting the narrative from "China fucked up" to "China is a hero." Enough concern for me to investigate the possible corruption.

Do you have a source for all that stuff about PPE? And if our PPE was given to China as aid, then surely we DID know the seriousness of the situation otherwise why did we do it? There is evidence that the intelligence services (which the WHO doesn't have) uncovered and reported the threat back in November. The White House was not interested in it and passed it on to Israel and NATO who also were not interested. https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-alerted-israel-nato-to-disease-outbreak-in-china-in-november-report/

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... e-equipme/

I don't disagree with the shitty response, even with that info, but if the WHO is pointing it out, you have the population to contend with, not just the White House making decisions in a vacuum.

[Wage Slave]

Yes, that's true but you said, "Not to mention all the PPE that was given to China as aid, purchased by the Chinese government around the world, before the world woke up to the seriousness." In other words China lied about the seriousness in order to get all the PPE. This shipment was in February. The world knew how serious the situation in China was in February and the White House had known since November. Because they knew the seriousness, they donated that PPE. There was some self interest in that as well as laudable humanitarianism.

I cannot escape the conclusion that people (especially D Trump) are focussing on China so exclusively because they are desperate for both distraction from their own failings and someone to blame. Oldest trick in the book as is the next stage - ramp it up to a state of near war reckless to the risk it actually becomes a war.

[Mike Oxlong]

Hasn't Trump been consistently hard on China throughout his first term? At least in Western nations there seems to be a broad consensus that China needs to be held accountable in some way.

[matsuki]

Yes, that's true but you said, "Not to mention all the PPE that was given to China as aid, purchased by the Chinese government around the world, before the world woke up to the seriousness." In other words China lied about the seriousness in order to get all the PPE. This shipment was in February. The world knew how serious the situation in China was in February and the White House had known since November. Because they knew the seriousness, they donated that PPE. There was some self interest in that as well as laudable humanitarianism.

I think there may be some evidence that shows that was the intent on the CCP's part but my point was more that the PPE donated wouldn't have been sent (or not as much) had it been known it eventually would be desperately needed in the US and the hoarding that China was doing while most were unaware. (Not just to blame the WHO, the CCP and Trump also fucked us)

I cannot escape the conclusion that people (especially D Trump) are focussing on China so exclusively because they are desperate for both distraction from their own failings and someone to blame. Oldest trick in the book as is the next stage - ramp it up to a state of near war reckless to the risk it actually becomes a war.

Like Long Cock said, it's not exactly a change in stance for Trump...but I'm definitely not motivated here by defending Trump. Needless to say, there was definitely arrogance about it coming to the US and there is no excuse for that. I definitely don't want a war but I see decoupling with China in regards to meds and related industries.

Remember the threats coming out of China's spokesholes threatening to restrict medical supplies/API exports and plunge the US "into a mighty sea of coronavirus."

[Wage Slave]

All I am saying is:

1. Dealing with China's part in creating or making worse this pandemic is not the highest priority. The highest and overwhelming priority is to reduce the number of lives this pandemic takes. Spending over a week talking about little else other than China is not good leadership and will cost lives.

2. When we have got through this there needs to be a thorough investigation into China's part in either creating the pandemic or failing to prevent it. There should also be an investigation into why so many nations failed to control the virus. And an investigation into why some succeeded so well. The basis for this investigation should be a multinational, honest, scientific search for the truth - otherwise we will not benefit fully from it and anyway China (like any country) will refuse to co-operate with it.

Compare and contrast that with what is happening in Washington and to some extent elsewhere at present.

[matsuki]

I'm with you on both those points.

My concern with the CCP influencing the WHO is well beyond the current situation...they have the WHO accepting Traditional Chinese "Medicine" (TCM) and that kind of assery is dangerous.

[Mike Oxlong]

For me, I think the bigger federal screwup in the US was not using highly experienced procurement and logistics professionals to obtain enough PPE for medical facilities and their staff (next to the testing fiasco, which was so bad that Washington State wisely told the CDC to bugger off, they'd handle it themselves).

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/us/j ... virus.html

[Wage Slave]

There is a world of difference between holding the Chinese government to account (let's do it) and accusing them of attacking the United States in a worse fashion than Pearl Harbor and The World Trade Center. Especially when you consider what came next in both cases as well as the fact it is a completely different situation. This president is incompetent, can't handle the challenge, is not doing his job and on the contrary has decided to just try and distract everyone's attention from his own failure to manage the pandemic by creating conflict with China and posing as a war leader. The man is a disaster and it will cost a lot of lives to satisfy his ego.

US President Donald Trump has described the coronavirus pandemic as the "worst attack" ever on the United States, pointing the finger at China.
Mr Trump said the outbreak had hit the US harder than the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor in World War Two, or the 9/11 attacks two decades ago.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52568405

[matsuki]

For me, I think the bigger federal screwup in the US was not using highly experienced procurement and logistics professionals to obtain enough PPE for medical facilities and their staff (next to the testing fiasco, which was so bad that Washington State wisely told the CDC to bugger off, they'd handle it themselves).

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/us/j ... virus.html

That is a fucking mess

There is a world of difference between holding the Chinese government to account (let's do it) and accusing them of attacking the United States in a worse fashion than Pearl Harbor and The World Trade Center. Especially when you consider what came next in both cases as well as the fact it is a completely different situation. This president is incompetent, can't handle the challenge, is not doing his job and on the contrary has decided to just try and distract everyone's attention from his own failure to manage the pandemic by creating conflict with China and posing as a war leader. The man is a disaster and it will cost a lot of lives to satisfy his ego.

US President Donald Trump has described the coronavirus pandemic as the "worst attack" ever on the United States, pointing the finger at China.
Mr Trump said the outbreak had hit the US harder than the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor in World War Two, or the 9/11 attacks two decades ago.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52568405

Trump's proclamations are pretty fucking terrible but that's nothing new. If it is somehow proven the release of infected persons was intentional to spread the virus overseas, I'd agree it could be called "an attack" but at the moment all we can claim is the initial CCP inaction/cover up fucked the rest of the world worse. That doesn't excuse Trump or any other leaders from their initial arrogance regarding the severity of the spread/situation.

We need more testing and data all around as we still don't have a clear understanding of the current situation. On one hand, you have a large group that wants to stay home for years? and the opposite fighting to reopen soon. It seems like Taiwan, Worst Korea, NZ, Australia are all moving back to a state of normalcy with heightened precautions. I just hope that tech and resourcefulness have increased enough to prevent a Spanish Flu second wave-like situation as freedom lovin' 'mericans push lifting lockdowns possibly too soon.

[Grumpy Gramps]

holding the Chinese government to account (let's do it)

Who exactly should do it and how? China is a sovereign state and doesn't need to answer to anyone. No-one has jurisdiction over China except China. That is one of the perks of being a (any) sovereign state.

[Wage Slave]

holding the Chinese government to account (let's do it)

Who exactly should do it and how? China is a sovereign state and doesn't need to answer to anyone. No-one has jurisdiction over China except China. That is one of the perks of being a (any) sovereign state.

I thought that was the whole point of organisations like the UN/International Court of Justice, WTO and EU. They can, to some extent, hold sovereign states to account. Mr Trump backed by the American military can try in his own particular style but there is always the danger he will simply be told to go and do one. He can threaten small countries like the UK or Japan but threatening to bomb and/or invade a country like China is a different proposition. And the Chinese attitude to opposition or criticism is er different to some countries. Mind you on that one he probably understands Winnie the Pooh pretty well.

[Grumpy Gramps]

I thought that was the whole point of organisations like the UN

Depends on how optimistic your point of view is. Not long ago, someone pulled out of the Paris climate agreement, just because he didn't like it, and no-one could do anything about him starting to pollute again, like there's no tomorrow.

A little longer ago, another someone just walked into Crimea and said "I love you, your comeliness charms me, my boy! And if you're not willing, my force I'll employ." Apart from a little whining no-one could do anything about it (little sanctions against the largest country on earth with more resources than they'll ever need, don't count).

A little earlier, another someone walked into Libya and killed its head of state, just for shits and giggles. Yeehaw; of course nothing happened, because he was an asshole, but so are many all other heads of state.

IMHO, the "hold a soverign state to account" thing is just another fairy tale by "the pigs" to keep us sheeple believing in the good of humanity. And "the pigs", to keep it Orwellian, they all have veto rights, because hey, they won a war 75 years ago and still are, therefore, "the good ones".

But maybe - hopefully - you're right and my view of things is just a little too pessimistic.

[Russell]

I thought that was the whole point of organisations like the UN

Depends on how optimistic your point of view is. Not long ago, someone pulled out of the Paris climate agreement, just because he didn't like it, and no-one could do anything about him starting to pollute again, like there's no tomorrow.

A little longer ago, another someone just walked into Crimea and said "I love you, your comeliness charms me, my boy! And if you're not willing, my force I'll employ." Apart from a little whining no-one could do anything about it (little sanctions against the largest country on earth with more resources than they'll ever need, don't count).

A little earlier, another someone walked into Libya and killed its head of state, just for shits and giggles. Yeehaw; of course nothing happened, because he was an asshole, but so are many all other heads of state.

IMHO, the "hold a soverign state to account" thing is just another fairy tale by "the pigs" to keep us sheeple believing in the good of humanity. And "the pigs", to keep it Orwellian, they all have veto rights, because hey, they won a war 75 years ago and still are, therefore, "the good ones".

But maybe - hopefully - you're right and my view of things is just a little too pessimistic.

Our only hope is incompetence...

Detained American claims he plotted Maduro's capture in Venezuela TV statement

A former U.S. soldier captured in Venezuela said on Wednesday that he had been contracted by a Florida security firm to seize control of Caracas' airport and bring in a plane to fly President Nicolas Maduro to the United States.

Venezuelan authorities on Monday arrested the man, Luke Denman, along with fellow U.S. citizen Airan Berry and 11 others, in what Maduro has called a failed plot coordinated with Washington to oust him.

During questioning broadcast on state television, Denman said the firm, Silvercorp USA, had signed a contract with Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaido to seek Maduro's removal. A Guaido advisor told CNN on Wednesday that he had signed an exploratory agreement, but it had never been finalized and the opposition did not support the attempted incursion.

U.S. President Donald Trump has denied involvement. A senior Trump administration official said Maduro's accusations of a U.S. role "are not credible" and the administration remained focused on "achieving a peaceful, democratic transition in Venezuela."

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said on Wednesday that the U.S. government would use "every tool" to secure the Americans' return, if they were being held in Venezuela.

In the video, Denman, 34, answered questions from a person off-camera speaking in English

Denman, who looked calm and wore a gray t-shirt, said his mission was to secure the airport and establish outer security. He did not give details on how his group planned to get Maduro on a plane.

It was unclear when or where the video was made, and where Denman and Berry are being held.

In March, the U.S. Department of Justice charged Maduro and a dozen other current and former Venezuelan officials with"narco-terrorism" and the Trump administration offered a reward of $15 million for information leading to his arrest.

"I was helping Venezuelans take back control of their country," Denman, a former special operations forces member, said in the video.

Denman said he and Berry were contracted by Jordan Goudreau, a U.S. military veteran who leads Silvercorp, to train 50 to 60 Venezuelans in Colombia in January for the operation. Goudreau supplied the group with equipment, Denman said.

Goudreau confirmed his role as organizer of the operation in media interviews on Sunday and told Reuters on Monday that Denman and Berry were "my guys." He could not be immediately reached for comment on Wednesday.

Venezuelan authorities said they arrested the group by the isolated coastal town of Chuao, about 60 kilometers (40 miles) west of Caracas' airport, after locals raised suspicions. Authorities published photos of what they said was the group's boat, loaded with ammunition, weapons and communication equipment.

Eight people involved in the same operation were killed on Sunday in La Guaira state, near Caracas, Maduro's government said.

During a televised virtual press conference on Wednesday, Maduro originally said he would show videos of the two Americans, but did not end up showing a video of Berry. He said Venezuela would seek Goudreau's extradition.

"Donald Trump is the direct chief of this invasion," Maduro added.

Guaido's team, in a statement earlier this week, said they had "no relationship with any company in the security and defense branch," including Silvercorp.

But on Wednesday, Juan Rendon, a Guaido advisor and member of his strategic committee, told CNN that he had signed an"exploratory agreement" with Silvercorp to seek the capture of members of Maduro's government "to deliver them to justice."

Rendon said the preliminary agreement was never executed or completed and Goudreau sent the soldiers on a "botched suicide" mission without Guaido's support.

After Denman's televised statement, a U.S. State Department spokesman said that "due to privacy considerations" it would have no further comment about the two Americans alleged to be in Venezuelan custody.

Link

[Wage Slave]

I thought that was the whole point of organisations like the UN

Depends on how optimistic your point of view is. Not long ago, someone pulled out of the Paris climate agreement, just because he didn't like it, and no-one could do anything about him starting to pollute again, like there's no tomorrow.

A little longer ago, another someone just walked into Crimea and said "I love you, your comeliness charms me, my boy! And if you're not willing, my force I'll employ." Apart from a little whining no-one could do anything about it (little sanctions against the largest country on earth with more resources than they'll ever need, don't count).

A little earlier, another someone walked into Libya and killed its head of state, just for shits and giggles. Yeehaw; of course nothing happened, because he was an asshole, but so are many all other heads of state.

IMHO, the "hold a soverign state to account" thing is just another fairy tale by "the pigs" to keep us sheeple believing in the good of humanity. And "the pigs", to keep it Orwellian, they all have veto rights, because hey, they won a war 75 years ago and still are, therefore, "the good ones".

But maybe - hopefully - you're right and my view of things is just a little too pessimistic.

Brilliantly expressed, as always, and a smorgasbord for thought. The irony is the very people who assume such a pose of moral superiority are busy tearing down all the post WW2 structures and norms that gave any substance to that notion.

[wagyl]

My two yen coins, floating on a glass of water:

Unlike the situation we have within the nation state, where we have a police force and a justice system, there is no real effective enforcement and punishment system in international law. Look at the history of trying to keep Best Korea in line for proof. International law is in truth the law of the school yard: you have bullying and cliques forming and reforming to try to keep some kind of equilibrium, but it really goes no further than that. And there are no guard dogs with any teeth.

I had a friend from school who, to everybody's surprise, ended up in diplomatic service, and was at one time involved with the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, a UN body. I asked her what the point and purpose of the UN is in this day and age, and all she could say is "a hope." She could also say that it performs the function of a clubroom where countries/diplomats can socialise in a more informal manner and float ideas and proposals which might not otherwise have the opportunity to be aired.

Oh, and Russell, I never responded to your comment that the video by New Tang Dynasty Television was more credible than official reports from China. I don't think that there is much credibility in official reports, especially as there have been reports that there have been more funeral urns shipped in to Wuhan than there have been reports of numbers of deaths for any cause let alone virus deaths. I doubt that Wuhan has chosen to stockpile urns. However, it is an editorial choice by New Tang Dynasty Television to use a politically charged name for the disease, one that does not improve their credibility and which calls their other editorial decisions into question. And frankly, I prefer to be able to read a report rather than have to wait over a thirty minute period of information to be delivered to me at the pace the documentary maker chooses. It has to be pretty compelling to make me keep watching, and a distracting feature like the name they choose to use for the disease can be enough for me to switch off. Do they think they will win audience by that choice or lose it? And what kind of audience will they win?

(I note that the tirade against the UN was written by a Swiss, and this after Switzerland has been one of the greatest benefactors of jobs by being home to so much UN bureaucracy)

[matsuki]

I don't know that you even need international bodies to lay the hurt on to the CCP after this debacle. It's going to be painful for them with people avoiding products from China. (Yes, even Chinese abroad will do this) You already have manufacturers leaving China. Factories in India are suddenly looking that much more appealing. You will have governments all over trying all kinds of things to penalize the CCP for the economic damage caused by the pandemic.

The pain can be amplified with an international effort and I'm hopeful we'll see something of the sort...but who knows how effective it will be or if it gets stopped in it's tracks by more promises from the CCP only for them to renege on them, like so many other.....accomplishing nothing more than growing anger against the CCP.

[Wage Slave]

I don't know that you even need international bodies to lay the hurt on to the CCP after this debacle. It's going to be painful for them with people avoiding products from China. (Yes, even Chinese abroad will do this) You already have manufacturers leaving China. Factories in India are suddenly looking that much more appealing. You will have governments all over trying all kinds of things to penalize the CCP for the economic damage caused by the pandemic.

The pain can be amplified with an international effort and I'm hopeful we'll see something of the sort...but who knows how effective it will be or if it gets stopped in it's tracks by more promises from the CCP only for them to renege on them, like so many other.....accomplishing nothing more than growing anger against the CCP.

Yeah, but business is and will be business. Although I can envisage some manufacturing moving to other countries and some even returning to the high wage countries there will likely be a lot more that won't. China offers proven industrial prowess, infrastructure, "disciplined" cheap workforce and a massive and rapidly growing internal market. Unless we all agree to put high long term tariffs/low quotas on China and accept equally long term and high tariffs/low quotoas on our goods in return and by implication agree to accept the economic damage and going without goodies that goes with that, it isn't going to happen because there won't be any business impulse to make it happen. No one, except neocon nutters aka classical liberals, said market capitalism counted in all costs and benefits when setting prices and demand. And market capitalism, as far as making widgets is concerned, is going to continue to rule.

The only hope would be via UN resolutions and sanctions plus the international court of justice plus careful and patient diplomacy to build a sanctions agreement as happened to South Africa. However, the US at the moment is set on destroying the UN and has shown little respect for careful diplomacy. To say the least.

(I note that the tirade against the UN was written by a Swiss, and this after Switzerland has been one of the greatest benefactors of jobs by being home to so much UN
bureaucracy)

Yes, and although I agree that winning WW2 doesn't make anyone the good guys forever and in all things it is noticeable that Switzerland didn't do much or sacrifice much to help destroy what were, let's be clear, very bad hombres.

[Grumpy Gramps]

You already have manufacturers leaving China. Factories in India are suddenly looking that much more appealing.

Oh, no! I have just yesterday been awarded the honourable title of "VIP 3rd class" by banggood.com.

[Wage Slave]

You already have manufacturers leaving China. Factories in India are suddenly looking that much more appealing.

Oh, no! I have just yesterday been awarded the honourable title of "VIP 3rd class" by banggood.com.

Oh dear! You are ahead of me then. But yeah, there go all my points on Ali Express as well.

[Grumpy Gramps]

(I note that the tirade against the UN was written by a Swiss, and this after Switzerland has been one of the greatest benefactors of jobs by being home to so much UN bureaucracy)

Well, even though Switzerland has hosted UN bureaucracy for a long time, it is still a junior member of the UN, they joined only 2002(!), so it's still learning, I guess (and I voted yes to join the UN and I would still vote yes today, just for wagyl's records).

My gripe with any of these institutions are the veto rights, where one single bully can thwart all the good efforts of the whole group. Like now, where Hungary and Poland seem to help one another to get out of democracy and the EU is basically helpless (oh, and I would also vote for Switzerland to join the EU any day, but don't think, it will happen in my life time).

[matsuki]

Yeah, but business is and will be business. Although I can envisage some manufacturing moving to other countries and some even returning to the high wage countries there will likely be a lot more that won't. China offers proven industrial prowess, infrastructure, "disciplined" cheap workforce and a massive and rapidly growing internal market. Unless we all agree to put high long term tariffs/low quotas on China and accept equally long term and high tariffs/low quotoas on our goods in return and by implication agree to accept the economic damage and going without goodies that goes with that, it isn't going to happen because there won't be any business impulse to make it happen. No one, except neocon nutters aka classical liberals, said market capitalism counted in all costs and benefits when setting prices and demand. And market capitalism, as far as making widgets is concerned, is going to continue to rule.

I have and still continue to deal with manufacturing in the middle kingdom. Infrastructure is one thing...but I wouldn't call the workforce disciplined. I think you're underestimating how quickly infrastructure can be built and a workforce put together. Obviously some high end industries will be stuck in China but I'd argue the push to "bring that manufacturing home" is there. The Chinese PPE, medicine, medical supply industries are definitely going to be rocked by this. Then you have the lower skilled, basic stuff...you already had quite a few Chinese entrepreneurs building factories in other countries due to the US/China trade war. Anyhow, my point is, this type of "movement" is going to happen regardless of the world bodies decide. Not saying it alone will topple the CCP but it is going to be painful for the country, threatening their power.

The only hope would be via UN resolutions and sanctions plus the international court of justice plus careful and patient diplomacy to build a sanctions agreement as happened to South Africa. However, the US at the moment is set on destroying the UN and has shown little respect for careful diplomacy. To say the least.

Obviously, this would be the most effective course...but if this pandemic doesn't bring about that stance, what else will?

I would also vote for Switzerland to join the EU any day, but don't think, it will happen in my life time.

Anything to do with the currency? I stopped watching the Swiss Franc after it shot up so high, my Swiss overlords were forced to switch all international transactions to USD.

[Grumpy Gramps]

I would also vote for Switzerland to join the EU any day, but don't think, it will happen in my life time.

Anything to do with the currency?

No, I don't think, something as volatile as a currency should be considered when deciding on something as long-lasting as EU membership. But tourist country Switzerland currently doesn't attract many tourists with their high prices and currency rate (except for the rich that is, but Prince Charles cannot single-handedly keep a whole country's tourist industry alive).

Your Swiss overlords very likely didn't decide doing business in Switzerland because of the outrageous price levels for everything, or the high salaries or, Satan forbid, patriotism; they must have other good reasons to do it there e.g. low tax levels for corporations and the fact that trade unions in Switzerland are toothless tigers at best, so emplyers have basically free reign over hire and fire. and other goodies that are rare in Europe.