"Bowling for Columbine" on WOWOW

[cstaylor]

Just saw it for the first time tonight. Overall, pretty good. I thought verbally beating a man with Alzheimer's was a little lame, and some of the leaps he made over American post-WW2 history conveniently skipped certain parts (for example, weapons were sold to Iran so that the hostages would be freed).

Moore can't have it both ways: either the media (including Marilyn Manson) are to blame, or they aren't.

His review of welfare-to-work was very good; probably the best part of the movie.

[groovewonder]

I thought it was excellent. Especially the comparrison between violence in Canada and Detroit. Crazy stuff.

[AssKissinger]

Yeah yesterday I watched the whole Michael Moore marathon. What I noticed is that his films are getting much better. I thought Roger and Me was really good when I first saw it when it first came out but now I was more critical of it. In the beginning he states that GM was making huge profits when they closed the plant. And I don't doubt that that's true but he never challenges any of the GM representatives with those figures so I thought it weakened the most important point of the movie. In The Big One he rectifies that and really tears those companies apart. I love when he puts Phil Knight on the spot about Indonesia and offers him a plane ticket to check it out himself. Also, his sense of humour really skyrockets. Some of that stuff is hilarious. Plus, Moore is so calm and cool all that time. He never gets excited or worked up or loses his composure at all. His 'wa' is really full on but at the same time he really shreds on people. And again he improves on it so much from Roger and Me. In Roger and Me where he approaches Miss Michigan it feels like he's trying to make her seem stupid but I think he only makes himself look like an asshole. But by the time he gets to Bowling for Columbine all is perfected. Charlton Heston totally deserved what he got going to those towns right after those gun tragedies with his NRA bullshit. I don't care if he is sick what he did was fucking sick. And the footage of Columbine's library with those kids running for cover is just totally fucking disturbing. I think he's a much better documentary filmmaker than a writer. BTW, his idea to make 'We Will Rock You' America's national anthem is full on brilliant!

[cstaylor]

I thought it was excellent. Especially the comparrison between violence in Canada and Detroit. Crazy stuff.

Oops, I left that off. Yes, that was my second-favorite part. The hunting dog was pretty funny too, "Do you think the dog knew what he was doing?"

[Big Booger]

The Kmart bit was proper and totally spot on. The same kids that were shot were able to go to Kmart and buy all of their ammo.. Kmart should really do something about that.. which I'd say after BFC, they did.. but who knows for sure.

His movies are always a bit of a stretch but they do provoke thought and that is healthy for society. I can't wait for his next film.

[kamome]

Bowling for Columbine has been out for quite a while (and so has Moore's books), so I'm surprised you FGs are just talking about this movie now. I've mentioned his stuff on several threads before. Anyway, I think the heston interview was the best part of the movie--it really brought the whole hypocrisy of the NRA to light. And Moore didn't browbeat the man either. He only asked him some questions and Heston painted himself into a corner with his own lame responses. And the way he just gave up and walked out of the room in the middle of the interview was a great moment.

[Taro Toporific]

... buy all of their ammo.. Kmart should really do something about that.. which I'd say after BFC, they did.. but who knows for sure....

Kmart sold me a box of 500 rounds last year: no ID, no questions.

As I've mentioned to FGs in the F-2-F world, my home in Columbine's school district (Jefferson County). I was substitute teacher there. I know Klebold's father --- a perfectly normal guy, almost too normal--he sits next to my box at Rockies baseball games. The killers "claimed" they hated the jocks and they were looking to shoot the jocks. The Coach Sanders who was killed was NOT a stereotypical "jock": he taught computers, showed uses of zen to his B-ball team, and let me use the weight room and pool (totally against school regs) in the predawn before school opened.

Bottom Line: The wacko kids would used the propane bombs they prepared if they did not get a hold of guns.... Sheee-it happens: Move on.

[cstaylor]

Anyway, I think the heston interview was the best part of the movie--it really brought the whole hypocrisy of the NRA to light. And Moore didn't browbeat the man either.

Watch it again. Watch Heston's hands and how he walks: classic Alzheimer's. If you think outwitting a man whose wits have left him is an accomplishment, well, that's your opinion.

Heston make a couple of verbal slips, and Moore pounces on him (Germany and their historic level of hate under the Nazis versus present-day gun-related homicide in Germany).

The answer to Moore's question concerning the level of gun-related deaths can be simplified:

- American culture is focused on two things: speed (not efficiency) and lower price
- Guns are the quickest (not the right solution, I'm only discussing speed), easiest, cleanest, and lowest-cost way of removing an obstacle to your perceived well-being
- Add those two together, you get a high gun-related homicide rate. This simple equation also works for "why are inane reality shows popular with television networks? they are cheaper to make" and "why is American food, by and large, nasty, unfulfilling, and served in ludicrious portions? Because it's cheaper to pile old, diseased meat higher on a plate than it would be to serve high quality food"

Moore got the entertainment bit right, but I think it applies to everything, not just the news. If news can put fear into adults, why can't violent games, movies, and music put violent thoughts into children's minds? Or maybe Moore is saying that, by not coming out and saying it directly. His critical look at the media was very good IMHO.

[kamome]

Anyway, I think the heston interview was the best part of the movie--it really brought the whole hypocrisy of the NRA to light. And Moore didn't browbeat the man either.

Watch it again. Watch Heston's hands and how he walks: classic Alzheimer's. If you think outwitting a man whose wits have left him is an accomplishment, well, that's your opinion.

Hey, I'm only saying there was no browbeating (or pouncing) going on. Moore basically used a socratic method of questioning: "Do you believe in 'A'?"]
Moore got the entertainment bit right, but I think it applies to everything, not just the news. If news can put fear into adults, why can't violent games, movies, and music put violent thoughts into children's minds? Or maybe Moore is saying that, by not coming out and saying it directly. His critical look at the media was very good IMHO.[/quote]

The point of BFC was that the media foments irrational fear in people, which makes them want to purchase guns and defend themselves from some vague threat to their life. It's the sensationalist media and the focus on the negative--car crashes, fires, burglaries, etc., that magnifies the so-called threat.

[NeoNecroNomiCron]

Funny I also watched it over the weekend. I also lent it to a japanese person. Their reply: I am never going to america again, it just looks to violent. Quite the opisite of what moore wanted, but the fact of the gun crimes and how america is driven by fear put them off.

It was very good though, I have seen a few tv programs by moore and always liked him. He does have an irratating side. But probably only in my view. I think he is a lot cleverer than even he protrays himself. Just to manipulate people perseption as the large media companies do.

Heston, alzhiemers unlikley, even in the speaches he gave he was not even looking at the teleprompter. His life has been devoted to the gun image. The little that it has backfired people are sorry for him.

[cstaylor]

He has enough of his wits to be a spokesperson for the NRA, traveling the country and making speeches. He certainly had enough wits to engage in a rational conversation with Moore.

No, it looked like he was losing his place in the conversation. If Moore had interviewed him immediately after his NRA speach appearance, I'd agree he'd having it coming, but it looked like someone getting in a last few licks before the lights went out for good. Not one of Moore's finest moments.

[cstaylor]

Heston, alzhiemers unlikley, even in the speaches he gave he was not even looking at the teleprompter.

No, I wasn't saying Alzheimer's explains his affiliation with the NRA, just his responses to Moore's line of questioning. Can you honestly say that Heston would have made the Nazi mistake if he wasn't coming apart?

[NeoNecroNomiCron]

Heston, alzhiemers unlikley, even in the speaches he gave he was not even looking at the teleprompter.

No, I wasn't saying Alzheimer's explains his affiliation with the NRA, just his responses to Moore's line of questioning. Can you honestly say that Heston would have made the Nazi mistake if he wasn't coming apart?

I can for all we know he could be a white supremist for the last 60 years. Who knows what his motivations were even 50 years ago. In his formative years, say from childhood to his 20ties he could of been in the midst of extreem black hatered.

Also if pot on the spot even i say something stupid. Can we take it as a slip of the thounge? Sometimes, but his background shows otherwise.

[kamome]

He has enough of his wits to be a spokesperson for the NRA, traveling the country and making speeches. He certainly had enough wits to engage in a rational conversation with Moore.

No, it looked like he was losing his place in the conversation. If Moore had interviewed him immediately after his NRA speach appearance, I'd agree he'd having it coming, but it looked like someone getting in a last few licks before the lights went out for good. Not one of Moore's finest moments.

I think your perception that Heston lost his place in the conversation comes from the fact that he could muster no good response to Moore's inquiries. When confronted with the total lack of logic in his own arguments, Heston wasn't able to keep up in the conversation. Anyone would look like they had Alzheimers if they had put as little thought into their comments as Heston did.

[kamome]

Actually, I guess you could say that the issue in that scene is whether Heston's ridiculous appearance in the interview can be attributed to Alzheimer's or to a lack of logic and forethought in his comments. My feeling is that the latter is true.

[NeoNecroNomiCron]

I think he probably thought he was speaking to a pro gun nut, and trying to figure out when he can say 'out of my cold dead hands' and make a holding gun gesture to the side.

[AssKissinger]

I recently read an interview with Michael Moore in the British music mag Uncut and he mentions that there was a bigger school massacre back in the day. 1927 to be exact. Hit It Girs

This is not from the interview

With all due respect and sympathy to the victims and their families of the Columbine and McDonald's shootings, the Oklahoma bombing, and other mass murders, they were not the worst mass murders of children in the US.

On May 18, 1927, 45 people, mostly children, were killed and 58 were injured when disgruntled and demented school board member Andrew Kehoe dynamited the new school building in Bath, Michigan out of revenge over his foreclosed farm due in part to the taxes required to pay for the new school

Maybe we should be glad our problems are nothing new.

Another thing, it seems a little strange that Moore ignored this copycat crime that occured in Canada

Hit It Girls

MONTREAL -- In a school gun assault with eerie parallels to last week's killings in Colorado, a 14-year-old student yesterday shot two older boys in the hallway of an Alberta high school, killing one and critically wounding the other.

Also did any of yall ever read this zine: Murder Can Be Fun?

Hit It Girls

John Marr
Murder Can Be Fun
Murder Can Be Fun is the zine project of John Marr, a twisted San Franciscan whose sole joy in life is chronicling the stupid, funny, interesting and usually violent ways in which many of our fellow human beings die. Unlike many punker-than-thou publications, Marr's macabre little mags are simple, well-written and content-packed. They're also thorough. In #16, Zoo Deaths, Marr not only lists famous animal maulings (an inordinate number of polar bears seem to be involved, as do a disproportionate number of New Yorkers), but also goes on to describe procedures in dealing with zoo attacks, what's done with the animal afterwards, typical public reaction, and so on. Similarly, the Naughty Children issue contains many complete case studies and condensed monographs on kids who kill other kids, or derail trains, or become inspired by dynamite. Marr doesn't limit himself by dwelling on the theme of each issue, either; he loves recommending other things to read, too. Murder Can Be Fun is a fine, darkly funny, literate little zine. —John Krewson

This is some great reading if you can get your hands on it. It goes into all kinds of crazy shit kids were up to back in the day. Times ain't really changed a bit.

[Molokidan]

I like Bowling for Columbine, but it's true that times haven't really changed. This sounds kind of laughable, but in the less law-enforced sections of the country, back in the 19th century, people did go on shootings in horse-drawn wagons.

I still thought BfC was hilarious, I love the beginning especially, and the dog part. Good stuff.

[AssKissinger]

[color="Red"]NSFW[/color]

http://kaktuz.com/jkk/Columbine_Massacre_footage.html

I'm not sure what to make of this link

[GuyJean]

[color="Red"]NSFW[/color]

http://kaktuz.com/jkk/Columbine_Massacre_footage.html

I'm not sure what to make of this link

Damn! Can't get to it at work..

Have you seen the movie Elephant? Wonderful/disturbing flick..

GJ

[AssKissinger]

No, I haven't, but I like that director.