Are japanese capable of learning English?

[Taro Toporific]

Most people are still pretty useles at Japanese after 6 months ....

Hey, that's why "x"published this interview with me.

Foreigner in Japan 10 years but refuses to speak Japanese!@ :: hmm :: / http://japan.box.sk
Japan caters for it's English speaking foreign community. Road signs, train and subway stations are in both romanji and Japanese. Menus in restaurants are in English, there are even English translation services for some TV news shows that are only a click of a button away. Indeed Japan has gone out of it's way to make the foreign community feel at ease. ...not all foreigners are so willing to leap into all things Japanese particularly nihongo! Take "Taro" aka Joe Dobbs for example. "I'm a foreigner! I speak English. I just don't see the need to speak Japanese. ...more...

[kamome]

I don't know--you can throw a whole bunch of charts out there, but I haven't heard one solid argument to support the contention that "English is a fucked up language", which put into context, implies that Japanese is a superior language. Each language is incredibly rich and expressive, with its own slang, idiomatic expressions, inconsistencies, and irregularities.

Sounds like somebody is a self-hater.

[Alcazar]

I don't know--you can throw a whole bunch of charts out there, but I haven't heard one solid argument to support the contention that "English is a fucked up language", which put into context, implies that Japanese is a superior language. Each language is incredibly rich and expressive, with its own slang, idiomatic expressions, inconsistencies, and irregularities.

Sounds like somebody is a self-hater.

Very Conservative position from you Kamone , while at the same time expressing Cosmopolitan values-the perfect modern balance.

[kamome]

Very Conservative position from you Kamone , while at the same time expressing Cosmopolitan values-the perfect modern balance.

Didn't you know? I AM the Renaissance Man.

[Caustic Saint]

Didn't you know? I AM the Renaissance Man.

Is that your excuse for all those frilly clothes?

[cstaylor]

I'm still a beginner, but I don't think the tsu is difficult.

The one I have most problems with is saying things like 7 o'clock.

Maybe you don't, but trying saying "tsukareta" and "sumimasen". Japanese people will understand what you're trying to say, but 9 times out of 10 you're saying it wrong.

[cstaylor]

implies that Japanese is a superior language

More like self-justification for years spent on pig-latin.

[devicenull]

I don't know--you can throw a whole bunch of charts out there, but I haven't heard one solid argument to support the contention that "English is a fucked up language", which put into context, implies that Japanese is a superior language. Each language is incredibly rich and expressive, with its own slang, idiomatic expressions, inconsistencies, and irregularities.

Sounds like somebody is a self-hater.

take a historical linguistics class

[cstaylor]

take a historical linguistics class

"Is the paint dry yet?"

[Alcazar]

Very Conservative position from you Kamone , while at the same time expressing Cosmopolitan values-the perfect modern balance.

Didn't you know? I AM the Renaissance Man.

Is that your excuse for all those frilly clothes?

Nuttin' wrong with that in many parts of Tokyo!

[kamome]

take a historical linguistics class

GETS! mental masturbation!

[kamome]

Very Conservative position from you Kamone , while at the same time expressing Cosmopolitan values-the perfect modern balance.

Didn't you know? I AM the Renaissance Man.

Is that your excuse for all those frilly clothes?

Nuttin' wrong with that in many parts of Tokyo!

Yeah, just call me Sissy Kamome.

[Caustic Saint]

Yeah, just call me Sissy Kamome.

My eyes! The goggles do nothing!

[devicenull]

take a historical linguistics class

"Is the paint dry yet?"

not quite... keep watching

[Andocrates]

It's quite a revelation the day you can understand the jokes on J-TV and realize the joke was on you.

[devicenull]

really quick... reasons why english is a fucked up language:

excessive number of vowels (some dialects have over 20... most languages on earth have 4-6)
complex fricatives and affricates
a rather unique /r/ and both a dark and light /l/
spelling is inconsistant with pronunciation. famous example: anyone care to guess how you pronounce "ghoti"?
silent letters due to archaic spellings
heavy borrowing from many languages
due to historical reasons, we get such wonderfull irregular plurals as "geese". it used to be /gosi/
the great vowel shift, which caused "geese" to be pronounced /gis/ and goose as /gus/ just to name a few...
and most of our idioms are used all the time, without any thought to their origins. usually they are leftovers from a completely different era, that had different grammar.


negatives of japanese:
3 fucking writing systems... seriously, what the fuck?
chinese characters taking on multiple readings that are in no way related.
mora timing causes shortened vowels. there is no clue given to this in the writing.
some irregular conjugations
formality levels
ideograms require one to develop a feel for them before they mean anything.
pragmatics - scary

[Socratesabroad]

[devicenull]

[hanasims]

english is a horrible and fucked up language.

WTF??

you have never really looked at it, have you? there are 14+ vowels, as well as sounds that appear in virtually no other language. we have 2 completely different types of /l/ and our spelling in inconsistant. we have interdental fricatives. and dialects often change things that they really shouldnt. idioms are all over the place, and im not even going to get into the pragmatics of english.

japanese has 6 vowels, one of which is high, back, devoiced, unrounded... this is the only odd one. grammar has few exceptions, and apart from mora timing, it is incredibly easy for even a beginner. phonetically, it is very easy, grammatically it is very easy as well. this leaves the lexicon and pragmatics, which are difficult in just about any language one is learning.

hell, Swahili is easier to learn than english.


i enjoy it, and my current plans require me to learn it, and learn it well. im also planning on adding some mandarin this summer in mainland.

Hey Device, you are leaving all of us behind with your lexicon and pragmatics. We speak english in this room and we try to avoid lexicon and pragmatics. By the way, what is mora timing? Thanks.

[devicenull]

Etymology: Latin, delay; akin to Old Irish maraid it lasts
: the minimal unit of measure in quantitative verse equivalent to the time of an average short syllable

in short, it's how the word/sentence flows. reading more about it now actually. much love for Natsuko Tsujimura right now. finished a study by Kasper on the acquisition of ne/na. it is actually rather complicated, and something that most L2 speakers of japanese never really master. remind me to stab my teacher in the neck for saying it was simply for seeking confirmation.

[kamome]

really quick... reasons why english is a fucked up language:

excessive number of vowels (some dialects have over 20... most languages on earth have 4-6)
complex fricatives and affricates
a rather unique /r/ and both a dark and light /l/
spelling is inconsistant with pronunciation. famous example: anyone care to guess how you pronounce "ghoti"?
silent letters due to archaic spellings
heavy borrowing from many languages
due to historical reasons, we get such wonderfull irregular plurals as "geese". it used to be /gosi/
the great vowel shift, which caused "geese" to be pronounced /gis/ and goose as /gus/ just to name a few...
and most of our idioms are used all the time, without any thought to their origins. usually they are leftovers from a completely different era, that had different grammar.


negatives of japanese:
3 fucking writing systems... seriously, what the fuck?
chinese characters taking on multiple readings that are in no way related.
mora timing causes shortened vowels. there is no clue given to this in the writing.
some irregular conjugations
formality levels
ideograms require one to develop a feel for them before they mean anything.
pragmatics - scary

I guess you must hate all languages, then. Every language has its inconsistencies and strangeness. That's why I love English and why I find Japanese an enjoyable intellectual challenge to learn. Language is a manifestation of the complexity of the people who use it to communicate.

[AssKissinger]

Devicenull, If you ever decide to teach English in Japan you had better start off by huffing gas for three weeks with no break to kill those brain cells cause nobody cares or wants to hear about all that Noam Chomsky bullshit.

the minimal unit of measure in quantitative verse equivalent to the time of an average short syllable

That kind of shit just bums people out. It's good for nothing. I mean who gives a fuck? Save it for the soccer moms in suburbia. You guys can practice your dental infricatives and juggle chainsaws and everybody will be like, "Wow! That dude knows about old letters that we don't even use anymore, he can juggle chainsaws and he's getting some sweet soccer mom snatcharoo."

[Socratesabroad]

[devicenull]

Devicenull, If you ever decide to teach English in Japan you had better start off by huffing gas for three weeks with no break to kill those brain cells cause nobody cares or wants to hear about all that Noam Chomsky bullshit.

the minimal unit of measure in quantitative verse equivalent to the time of an average short syllable

That kind of shit just bums people out. It's good for nothing. I mean who gives a fuck? Save it for the soccer moms in suburbia. You guys can practice your dental infricatives and juggle chainsaws and everybody will be like, "Wow! That dude knows about old letters that we don't even use anymore, he can juggle chainsaws and he's getting some sweet soccer mom snatcharoo."

...i hate chomsky... UG is bullshit. phonetics is different, very different from UG

[devicenull]

I guess you must hate all languages, then. Every language has its inconsistencies and strangeness. That's why I love English and why I find Japanese an enjoyable intellectual challenge to learn. Language is a manifestation of the complexity of the people who use it to communicate.

since when does "fucked up" imply "hate"? english is seriously fucked up.. and the level on which i hate it is due to having to study it in the depth that i am. currently doing the same with japanese on my own, the difference being that i can actually apply the theories to myself and see if they help. so far, they are.

[devicenull]

[kamome]

since when does "fucked up" imply "hate"?

english is seriously fucked up.. and the level on which i hate it is due to...blah, blah, blah

[Socratesabroad]

[Kurofune]

Fricatives, glottal stops, and other fun conversation topics aside, ability to learn English depends on their frame of mind. I've had students who in their way wanted to learn, but they were too hindered by fear of mistakes or fear of the foreign teacher. Some students think it's a matter of being spoonfed and don't practice enough outside of class. Some students get upset when you mention a grammar point they learned in school, but they don't realize the difference between knowing of the existence of it and being able to use it reflexively. Then there are the ones who think they can speak English because they went to Waseda or wherever. For these people, attaining intermediate ability will be an accomplishment unless they change their approach.

The system doesn't help either. Between teachers who couldn't order a happy meal in English and test-driven English lessons, it's little wonder that people have accumulated English-lesson baggage.