J-women who won't work

[Kurofune]

Many FG's explain a J-woman's refusal to work as societal standards that she saw modeled by her mother and other women around her. Then there's the pessimistic view that they're just lazy and want to do nothing but go shopping with someone else's money. Both situations happen, but another situation that I don't hear people talking about is escape from the sado-masochistic crap that happens in so many Japanese places of work. Most of the working J-women I've known were highly stressed over mountain-ized anthills. What do you think?

[cstaylor]

Both situations happen, but another situation that I don't hear people talking about is escape from the sado-masochistic crap that happens in so many Japanese places of work. Most of the working J-women I've known were highly stressed over mountain-ized anthills. What do you think?

No, because that exists outside of the workplace too. Japanese seem to thrive on that uchi/soto bullshit: for example, local PTA, local community association, various clubs, groups within apartments, etc...

My vote: lazy. If they want to play their mother's game, then they should expect to be treated like their mother.

[devicenull]

[kamome]

My vote: lazy. If they want to play their mother's game, then they should expect to be treated like their mother.

It's laziness, plus two things: a complete lack of focus in their lives, and a false sense of security.

Many women just have no clue what they want to do. They've led sheltered lives and haven't had the need to fight and scrap for something they want. That leads to lack of focus, since they haven't been forced to decide what their goals in life are.

Then there's the false sense of security. I've seen the same phenomenon with children of wealthy people I knew in the States--they have no drive, because they know they'll have a cushion. J-women feel they can go from the cushion their homes provide to the cushion provided by a marriage to a guy who will provide for them.

[AssKissinger]

Maybe they don't want to work because work sucks. It sucks having to wake up in the morning. It sucks seeing the same people everyday. It sucks having a boss. It sucks having to do things you don't feel like doing. Only an idiot would choose to work if there was some way around it. I'm sure most of you like to pretend your jobs are fulfilling and you there's a sense of satisfaction and achievement associated with a hard day's work or some other similar crap. And go on telling yourselves that bullshit if it makes you feel better about your enslavement. But spare me this work provides a sense a purpose crap. These women have no purpose because they don't want to work? Ha! It's people who spend most of their time doing and thinking about their jobs that have no purpose. These women have a very sane purpose; to enjoy life. That's a million times more meaningful than living to make a profit for the big corporate cock.

[GomiGirl]

Many women just have no clue what they want to do. They've led sheltered lives and haven't had the need to fight and scrap for something they want. That leads to lack of focus, since they haven't been forced to decide what their goals in life are.

Agree totally. This is not necessarily the fault of the individual, rather the environment in which they have been brought up.

Plus I think that most are completely bored and spend time on their nails and hair for something to do and talk about with their friends. This no doubt contributes to the vacuous nature of these conversations. The traditional cultural arts are difficult to learn and not "in vogue" and rarely are their sports for girls to get involved with.

If you are told from birth that your only value is realised when you snag a good husband, this is what you honestly believe. Also, when there is nothing to aim for - ie there are limited career opportunities and you know that you will be paid less than your colleagues because of your gender, you are likely to feel a bit despondant and have no incentive to move forward.

But shyness is also a factor. If people are talking about something that is not understood, girls will not ask questions to try to understand and so learn and grow.

I feel sorry for some of these women though, as they don't seem to marry for anything other than long term security and it makes for some unhappy people, resigned to what they see as their lot in life.

Sure the feminist movement in the west gets alot of criticism (some quite deservedly I must admit) but if there is one outcome that is positive, it is that girls really feel able to achieve and be independant if they so choose and are prepared to put in the effort themselves. Japanese girls, are not really shown independance and self reliance as a life choice.

There are no role models and no icons other than pop-stars who are admired more for their looks than for their talents.

China is completely different however. The gender roles and glass ceiling - especially in the workplace - are almost non-existant. The women work side by side with the guys and are just as ambitious. However, respect is gained and measured on performance and ability which is the ideal working situation.

[GomiGirl]

[quote="AssKissinger"]Maybe they don't want to work because work sucks. It sucks having to wake up in the morning. It sucks seeing the same people everyday. It sucks having a boss. It sucks having to do things you don't feel like doing. Only an idiot would choose to work if there was some way around it. I'm sure most of you like to pretend your jobs are fulfilling and you there's a sense of satisfaction and achievement associated with a hard day's work or some other similar crap. And go on telling yourselves that bullshit if it makes you feel better about your enslavement. But spare me this work provides a sense a purpose crap. These women have no purpose because they don't want to work? Ha! It's people who spend most of their time doing and thinking about their jobs that have no purpose. These women have a very sane purpose]

You are obviously in the wrong job. Everybody has bad days, but if you don't feel that what you do is enhancing the quality of your life and the lives of the people around you, then you need to do something else.

BTW I am at work today. By choice.

[AssKissinger]

BTW I am at work today. By choice.

You're such a good little robotron.

[Alcazar]

It's On! (again),...and the beat goes on......

[cstaylor]

[quote="AssKissinger"]These women have a very sane purpose]Well, they can't do it on their own: they're slaves to their husbands, who are slaves to the "big corporate cock". I don't have a problem with people who enjoy life, but at the expense of their husbands? That's true laziness... no, it's actually prostitution of the worst sort. What do you think the husband expects in return for his paycheck?

However, if there are children involved, then it's a different story.

[AssKissinger]

That's true laziness... no, it's actually prostitution of the worst sort

Well, we're all exploited so it you might as well try to minimize the pain.

[cstaylor]

That's true laziness... no, it's actually prostitution of the worst sort

Well, we're all exploited so it you might as well try to minimize the pain.

Hey, more power to you. Hopefully you'll look good as a new-half.

[Frost]

"That's true laziness... no, it's actually prostitution of the worst sort. What do you think the husband expects in return for his paycheck?"

I wish I could find a nice girl and let her work and let me be lazy...lucky girls, why cant I be the prostitute?

[Cubed]

Just curious Mr Frost, where did you find the avatar.

My wife says you made it yourself with a digicam.

I think it's an ad for those impotence drinks on the top rack in the chemists.

[tidbits]

It is the whole system and cultural thing. If a girl treat marriage as a long term meal ticket then that is wrong. Just as wrong as a female staff is expected to hand in her resignation letter after she is married or pregnant.

Not all J-girls are lazy. The sadder part is there are those who still wants to work after married or having children but the cultural or system doesn't support her (or even penalise her). Most important thing is women are given options and are supported by the society on their decision. A woman who performs household duties, including caring for the children should be thought as contributing to the society too, regardless of whether she produces a cash income.

I think the Japanese girls must fight harder if they want to reach equal status in profesional world. A simple example, there are many hotels in Japan don't put female staffs on night shift due to high rates of sexual harrasment and I think this is just not the solution to the problem. Japan is so fast and advance in technology but just so slow in the rights for women.

[Caustic Saint]

I think it's an ad for those impotence drinks on the top rack in the chemists.

It's from some TV commercial. I used to have the file around somewhere.

[kamome]

spare me this work provides a sense a purpose crap. These women have no purpose because they don't want to work? Ha! It's people who spend most of their time doing and thinking about their jobs that have no purpose.

I agree that the monotony of work sucks--getting up early every day, sitting in the same office everyday, etc. But work does provide a sense of purpose for those who feel they are doing something they are successful at.

Whenever I hear someone totally scoffing, as you do, at the notion that working folk are just sucking on the "big corporate cock", I wonder if that springs from the sense of insecurity that accompanies lower purchasing power.

[Kurofune]

Well, they can't do it on their own: they're slaves to their husbands, who are slaves to the "big corporate cock".

A Japanese priest told me that Japanese are slaves. I asked why they didn't take advantage of this relatively open era to liberate themselves, and he said that they found a sense of freedom in their slavery -- freedom from responsibility, decision-making, etc. So it sounds like slavery as a form of laziness. Interesting point.

I don't have a problem with people who enjoy life, but at the expense of their husbands?

Thank you. I think AssKissinger pegged it when he said that it was a matter of who exploits and who gets exploited. I don't like that either, but I think that's what it often comes down to here.

If you are told from birth that your only value is realised when you snag a good husband, this is what you honestly believe. Also, when there is nothing to aim for - ie there are limited career opportunities and you know that you will be paid less than your colleagues because of your gender, you are likely to feel a bit despondant and have no incentive to move forward.

That's true. Also, Japan hasn't had a major feminist movement like we had in the West. I had a student who was considered a Japanese feminist and wrote a few books on it. I tried to discuss feminism with her and was disappointed by how little she had to say. There would need to be drastic cultural changes before such a movement would even be possible here.

I asked a few groups of female students whether they wanted their son to be intelligent, athletic, or attractive; then the same question about their daughter. They almost unanimously said that the son should be athletic because he'd be a good team player and would do well at work, and that the daughter should be attractive so she can find a good husband and have "an easy life." I'm all for success at work and marrying into a good situation, but I was surprised at how one-tracked their response was. I asked about intelligence, and they balked. Being too intelligent will make other people resentful. Better to stay properly hammered down.

[Alcazar]

[quote="Kurofune"] A Japanese priest told me that Japanese are slaves. I asked why they didn't take advantage of this relatively open era to liberate themselves, and he said that they found a sense of freedom in their slavery -- freedom from responsibility, decision-making, etc. So it sounds like slavery as a form of laziness. Interesting point.

I asked a few groups of female students whether they wanted their son to be intelligent, athletic, or attractive]

That stuff is especially interesting. The priest you met had a good insight into how the Japanese think-thanks for sharing that. The whole freedom through slavery is Orwellian ala '1984' isn't it? S'pose it isn't that bad.....

[Alcazar]

OK, 'grande' post ahead. I broke it up so it is more easily readable.

I thought I might contribute my thoughts to the topic. The whole issue was about J-women not working, and in today's world we tend to look down on women who don't want to work as 'not pulling their weight' etc, especially in the West. But we are looking at this issue from our point of reference-our lives lived in West during the late 20th Century and early 21st Century where the majority of women work.

Work provides women the ability to live by themselves, hence the explosion in single parent families and an average length of contemporary marriages of just 7 years in places like the US-I'm sure it is similar elsewhere in the West too. Women work out of economic necessity out of marriage. They also largely work out of economic necessity within marriage too-it usually takes both parents working to support a high standard of living in today's world. Not too many guys earn enough to be able to support a woman and family just by themselves-at least I don't know too many in a situation like this.

(maybe some wealthier FG here have families in two or more countries )

My point is that women used to value men more highly in the past when men had a role to play within the most important institution to any civilisation-the family unit. Men had a defined role. They earned money/resources for themselves, their wife and their children. Men also provided physical protection in a violent world (it's still violent) where we didn't have the systems we have in place now. For example, in the past where the nearest policeman might be several days ride away. Or in Medieval European cities and towns where no-one dared leave the light of the cooking fire to go out into the pitch-black, narrow and labyrinthine streets outside where thieves (and much worse) ruled the streets after dark.

Today, men no longer have an exclusive role to play in this equation. Men are superfluous to needs. Women don't need us to provide for them or their children, because women work. They can also get welfare and/or court enforced child-support. Women no longer need us for physical protection-the laws and institutions of the State have taken over this role. We are maybe needed to have children. But maybe not. How depressing.

Granted, the overwhelming majority of women want men in their lives-especially young women who are decades away from getting jaded with men. Yes, the absolute man-hating biatches of tomorrow are but perky high school and college girls today .

My point is, it would probably be really great to be in a situation where you are wealthy enough that your wife doesn't have to work, and as a result, loves you for that-being a provider. Men want to provide for women. I think a lot of the social pathology happening now in regard to men disrespecting women (myself included), is because as men we now no longer have a distinct role in society, or life in general. So now we are just out for ourselves.

(Take this social context, and consider what happens when you throw millions of unemployed young men in the West into it who have been heavily and continously exposed to a popular culture that embraces violence and a growing misogyny against women.
Everyone loses. Society and politics reacts accordingly. You want politics to move to the Right? Well there is an in-built internal formula for change right there. That's not even including any wider economics or projections for the war on terror. With these factors combined, I believe we live a pre-fascist political environment. I believed this before 9/11).

And no, I don't think things will or necessarily should 'go back' all the way. I just think our civilisation has dire problems, and that the J-system probably has benefits we don't recognise or appreciate.

[AssKissinger]

Whenever I hear someone totally scoffing, as you do, at the notion that working folk are just sucking on the "big corporate cock", I wonder if that springs from the sense of insecurity that accompanies lower purchasing power.

I wouldn't deny it! That's an astute post and funny. If I could only buy that submarine I always wanted I'm sure my attitude would turn right around. But if was working that hard would I ever get the chance to enjoy it? My purchasing power is plenty low you're right about that but besides the sub I got the things I need. What I intensely resent is demands on my time. This last year, I've managed to keep most work weeks under 30 hours. To me, someone who works over 50 hours is a sucker, no matter what the pay because I know they're too tired to enjoy what they earn.

By the way, we've discussed this before.

Hit It Girls

Music to my ears.. I knew guys like you were out there..

GG, don't be fooled. Guys who sing this tune are just on a cover-up and usually they have the most to hide.

P.S. Work really does suck.

AssKissinger,

Well. Again, as always....you are wrong.

I wrote what I feel and I am not hiding anything! You do not know me and so how can you say that I am hiding what I really feel?

You try to dis credit me by saying that, but you are very much wrong. :P

Just becasue a women can have babies, does not mean they have to stay home and clean up after guys like you.

Put a lable on this line of thought. I think you AssKissinger fear a strong women!

A women with brains! :P

A women who may be smarter than you! :P

A women who can do something you can not!

No AssKissinger......I value women. I love to make love a women who has a great personality, body, mind, and soul. :P

Am I different than you Ass-K?

I think I am.

A women is more than a baby factory and maid service.

Or maybe ASS-K merely thinks women are good for only one thing?

Sorry Ass-K....I mean no disrepect for calling you Ass-K...but your name is too long. Your brain...short.

Short on thinking with more than your Mr. Happy!

P.S. Work sucks if what you are doing is low level work. But hey...maybe that is why you think work sucks.....?

I love to work! Work is what we are here on Earth to do! Help each other thru work....right?

Lazy Ass-K....I hope you can find work that you like. Work that does not suck. Then you will understand that in work do you find yourself.

Did you know in Heaven even God has a job for you?!

Well. Again, as always....you are wrong

You're right.

Just becasue a women can have babies, does not mean they have to stay home and clean up after guys like you.

My wife and I don't want kids and she works. I told her if she doesn't want the stress it's ok by me if we live on my income alone but if she wants to work that's cool too. We use her income for going out to eat and to buy her new outfits and stuff. To her it's worth it but she takes a lot of time off as well. If you saw our apartment you'd know she doesn't clean much. She is a good cook and for that I'm grateful but I cook about half my meals for myself. She declines my cooking with good reason except for tacos a couple times every month.

Put a lable on this line of thought. I think you AssKissinger fear a strong women!

A women with brains!

A women who may be smarter than you!

A women who can do something you can not!

My wife has brains, she's smarter than me and she could do many things I can't.

Short on thinking with more than your Mr. Happy!

I don't call him Mr. Happy. I call him Luckie Chuckie. He used to be the boss but since I got married he has a new rule. He only dips into my wife. He loves porn, however.

Work is what we are here on Earth to do!

Well, different strokes for different folks. Untill I find a job I can do butt naked while drinking bourbon in a Lazy-Boy I doubt I'll change my mind.

Did you know in Heaven even God has a job for you?!

No, I didn't know that.

By the way, sorry for attacking your post. I'm just jealous cause GG ignores me. How 'bout a truce my brother?

Work is what we are here on Earth to do!

Well, different strokes for different folks. Until I find a job I can do butt naked while drinking bourbon in a Lazy-Boy.

Dang, that sounds like my job. Ahhhhh, the joys of being a pre-Bubble hire in braindead Japan Inc.

Ahhh, the good old days.

[magickow]

My girlfriend is Japanese and she wants to work. In fact she says she's worried about having kids because she'll have to quit her job. And she does have a pretty good job too.
I wouldn't say all Japanese girls are lazy and want to live the life of a housewife.

[cstaylor]

Men want to provide for women.

Not me. I'm nobody's sugar daddy.

I think a lot of the social pathology happening now in regard to men disrespecting women (myself included), is because as men we now no longer have a distinct role in society, or life in general.

I'd say the breakdown of religion as a feared force in society, plus the abundant supply of violent and degrading pornography, plays a much larger role in that regard. It wasn't so long ago that divorce carried a pretty serious stigma in the West.

that the J-system probably has benefits we don't recognise or appreciate.

If you're a woman, yes, it has tremendous benefits, if you can tolerate your position as wallflower.

[cstaylor]

My girlfriend is Japanese and she wants to work. In fact she says she's worried about having kids because she'll have to quit her job. And she does have a pretty good job too.
I wouldn't say all Japanese girls are lazy and want to live the life of a housewife.

Nobody was saying that... we're just talking about those who do want to stay home (sans children) and live the easy life.

[kamome]

Whenever I hear someone totally scoffing, as you do, at the notion that working folk are just sucking on the "big corporate cock", I wonder if that springs from the sense of insecurity that accompanies lower purchasing power.

I wouldn't deny it! That's an astute post and funny. If I could only buy that submarine I always wanted I'm sure my attitude would turn right around. But if was working that hard would I ever get the chance to enjoy it? My purchasing power is plenty low you're right about that but besides the sub I got the things I need. What I intensely resent is demands on my time. This last year, I've managed to keep most work weeks under 30 hours. To me, someone who works over 50 hours is a sucker, no matter what the pay because I know they're too tired to enjoy what they earn.

By the way, we've discussed this before.

Hit It Girls
Ahhh, the good old days.

Wow, I don't remember this discussion at all. Must have missed it. Whatever happened to Shibuya Me?

Anyway, I'm glad you liked my earlier post. To put what we've said in perspective, I think it's a matter of priorities and tradeoffs: if you prefer working less, you have to be comfortable with earning less. It sounds like you're comfortable with that, and that's cool. But just because some of us work a little harder doesn't necessarily make us suckers. (Although I admit I constantly reassess my own thinking on that).

[GomiGirl]

My girlfriend is Japanese and she wants to work. In fact she says she's worried about having kids because she'll have to quit her job. And she does have a pretty good job too.
I wouldn't say all Japanese girls are lazy and want to live the life of a housewife.

Nobody was saying that... we're just talking about those who do want to stay home (sans children) and live the easy life.

CS do you really think it is the "easy life"? I beg to differ.

Sorry but staying at home taking care of a house and a brood of screaming kids sounds a heap more difficult, lonely and monotonous than working 100 hours a week where I can see the results of my labour and am appreciated for the effort that is put in.

I would absolutely HATE to know that my lot in life was to wash the same floor week in and week out only for it to get dirty again. How demoralising!!

I really admire women who do this and stay sane.

Perhaps my perspective is a bit skewed.. But then I was brought up in a household where both parents always worked and we had cleaning ladies who came in once or twice a week to wash the floor etc. It is not that expensive to factor in and the opportunity cost for your lifestyle is much greater than spending half the weekend cleaning the toilet.

before you say - ah that is too expensive.. a cleaner in Japan costs around Y1,500 per hour. (That is 1.5 beers in a Roppongi bar) There is a group of fillipino ladies that work the foreigner circuit and have a nice little business going. My place takes 2 hours to clean and my time is much better spent and I am a heap happier and I don't have to live in a dirty home.

Kids are a different matter. They need a parent who is attentive and available whether that is the mother or the father, it doesn't really matter, but certainly not hired help. I think this can be done in a two parent working family as long as the roles are clearly defined within the unit and not by some archaic external system.

There are studies that even when both parents are working, it is still the females who end up doing more work around the house. I think the value of housework is completely unappreciated by most people. As I mentioned, I couldn't do it... I hate housework and don't feel that it should be expected. Sure it needs to be done, but not by me.

How good at you blokes at keeping your houses clean?

Ok I am rambling a bit. But I just wanted to put in my two cents worth..

[Caustic Saint]

How good at you blokes at keeping your houses clean?

Pretty good, I suppose. And that's using general standards of cleanliness, not "guy standards."

I do all the basics (floors, bathroom, dishes, laundry) regularly. The only problem area in my place is dust. I've got a construction supply company right outside my window with forklifts driving around on dirt all day. Even with my windows closed I get a lot of dust. Can't stand it, really.

[GomiGirl]

Today, men no longer have an exclusive role to play in this equation. Men are superfluous to needs. Women don't need us to provide for them or their children, because women work. They can also get welfare and/or court enforced child-support. Women no longer need us for physical protection-the laws and institutions of the State have taken over this role. We are maybe needed to have children. But maybe not. How depressing. :

I don't think men are superfluous at all. Just because an ancient gender role is no longer relevent, it doesn't mean that half the population have no value. Far from it..

Personally I think it is time for men to redefine their own roles in this ever changing society. Women have done it - or at least have given themselves more options that suit the individual..

I feel sorry for some guys, trying to hold onto an identity that is no longer relevent. Wanting things to go back to the Ozzie and Harriet culture or even the "protecter and the homemaker" doesn't make it so and will only make you frustrated and bitter if yuo try to recapture something that is no longer there. Perhaps this is the source of misogyny.

Granted, the overwhelming majority of women want men in their lives-especially young women who are decades away from getting jaded with men. Yes, the absolute man-hating biatches of tomorrow are but perky high school and college girls today .:

Perhaps the perky school girls (who have been told they have choices, independance and can control their destinies) become jaded man haters because the guys they date keep trying to force them back into the 1960's..

[hanasims]

[quote="AssKissinger"]Maybe they don't want to work because work sucks. It sucks having to wake up in the morning. It sucks seeing the same people everyday. It sucks having a boss. It sucks having to do things you don't feel like doing. Only an idiot would choose to work if there was some way around it. I'm sure most of you like to pretend your jobs are fulfilling and you there's a sense of satisfaction and achievement associated with a hard day's work or some other similar crap. And go on telling yourselves that bullshit if it makes you feel better about your enslavement. But spare me this work provides a sense a purpose crap. These women have no purpose because they don't want to work? Ha! It's people who spend most of their time doing and thinking about their jobs that have no purpose. These women have a very sane purpose]

You should be my spokesman Kissenger. I am a big fan. A career is only a job someone likes to brag about desho? I worked at a company right out of college and there was a girl there who was always talking about her "career" and her "goals". She told me she did not want to have kids because they would only get in the way of her career. I never felt so sorry for someone in my whole life. She thought she was so smart, but she let the boss tear into her about the littlest things. He did that to me one time and I got to work early the next morning and I walked into his office and slammed the door and said, don't ever talk to me like that again. He did not take my advice, so I soon left that place. You may gain money from whoring for a company, but often you have to give up what makes you happy. In this case it was pride and self respect.
My girlfriend and her friend (who are both Japanese) went to a job fair in Boston. When they got back I asked them how it went. They said they were very depressed and they did not have the education and knowledge of alot of the other people who were applying for the jobs there. (They are both very bright, one has an MBA and they other has a Master in Molecular Biology). Well anyway, I told them listen, those people are no smarter then you. If you want to be like them you would have to give up seeing your friends as often as you do, going on trips like you do and relaxing like you do. Would it be worth it? I wish less people were interested in serving the corporate machine.

[Alcazar]

Men want to provide for women.

Not me. I'm nobody's sugar daddy.

But maybe you would be if we were having this conversation in 1940, rather than now. I also have the opinion now that I wouldn't let a woman sponge off me, at least at my station in life. If I turned out really wealthy (unlikely), maybe I would feel like just supporting a woman.

I think a lot of the social pathology happening now in regard to men disrespecting women (myself included), is because as men we now no longer have a distinct role in society, or life in general.

I'd say the breakdown of religion as a feared force in society, plus the abundant supply of violent and degrading pornography, plays a much larger role in that regard. It wasn't so long ago that divorce carried a pretty serious stigma in the West.

I totally agree.

And that's using general standards of cleanliness, not "guy standards."

Wot's wrong with that? All I'm saying is that scavenger insects have a role to play in our eco-system........

I don't think men are superfluous at all. Just because an ancient gender role is no longer relevent, it doesn't mean that half the population have no value. Far from it..

Personally I think it is time for men to redefine their own roles in this ever changing society. Women have done it - or at least have given themselves more options that suit the individual..

Well thank you for the kind words GG. But could you suggest what exclusive 'new role' men are supposed to perform?

I worked at a company right out of college and there was a girl there who was always talking about her "career" and her "goals". She told me she did not want to have kids because they would only get in the way of her career. I never felt so sorry for someone in my whole life.

Ah, the 'I'm so smart I forgot to breed' syndrome-I've seen it many times myself, and it's sad.