Koizumi: 'my condolences to my own country's war dead'

[Taro Toporific]

Koizumi 'puzzled' by Chinese outcry over war shrine visit
Sun Mar 28, 1:45 AM ET
TOKYO, (AFP) - Japan's Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi says he cannot understand why China denounces his annual pilgrimage to a controversial war shrine. "I am still very much puzzled about why people in foreign countries say it is no good that I convey my condolences to my own country's war dead," Koizumi said....

[Big Booger]

Shows really how much Japanese care or even know about how foreign countries feel about Japan.. LOL[/u]

[ahochaude]

I see nothing wrong in that. Koizumi is just doing it out of respect for the dead. He's not trying to rub salt into old wounds or anything. China is the one who can't "let it go". It's over and done with. Jeez. Let it go people!!!

[Marked Trail]

I see nothing wrong in that. Koizumi is just doing it out of respect for the dead.

Only the living need respect.

[Marvin Feltcher]

I agree with the PM. God, if another country so much as whsipers anything about, say, human rights records in China or even South Korea, they're promptly told to "butt out of our internal affairs."
I fail to see ANYTHING wrong with a leader paying homage to those who have made the ultimate sacrifice on behalf of the country.
Koizumi is by no means justifying Japan's military agression, nor is he ushering in a new militarism. He's merely saying, "Gokuro-sama" to people who died for what they believed in, right or wrong.
If I were him, I'd tell China, both Koreas, and the rest of Asia whenever they start moaning about Yasukuni to "go and get f""ked." Using slightly more diplomatic terms, of course.
I dread to think of the uproar if Koizumi issued a protest whenever the leaders of one of these nations paid their respects to the war dead.

[Big Booger]

If I were him, I'd tell China, both Koreas, and the rest of Asia whenever they start moaning about Yasukuni to "go and get f""ked." Using slightly more diplomatic terms, of course.
I dread to think of the uproar if Koizumi issued a protest whenever the leaders of one of these nations paid their respects to the war dead.

There goes 1 billion+ in lost trade It's one thing to pay respects to war dead, but certainly there are other places to do such activities that don't house the remains of war criminals... Hate to bring Hitler into this, but it would be like Schroder visiting Hitler's grave to pay respects

Of course that is over the top, but the principle is related...

I think the war criminals should be removed from the shrine and that would clear this up.. do they need to be there? Remove them hurts Japan how? Removing them would improve relations and shut China and Korea up at least for the time being.

In a way I see your point, he is just respecting the war dead and those who lost their lives fighting.. but the criminals shouldn't have even been buried there in the first place..

[Taro Toporific]

If I were him, I'd tell China, both Koreas, and the rest of Asia whenever they start moaning about Yasukuni to "go and get f""ked."

In a way I see your point, he is just respecting the war dead and those who lost their lives fighting.. but the criminals shouldn't have even been buried there in the first place..

Gee, this "problem" doesn't happen in Germany, just Japan. It's an intentional way for Japan to say, "go and get f""ked."

[ahochaude]

Only the living need respect.

With that kind of comment I can only assume that you don't visit the graves of your ancestors? (ie greatgrandfather, greatgrandmother, etc.)
But your opinion is respected.

[AssKissinger]

I agree with Marvin. A country should pay respect for their war dead no matter what the circumstances. Just because they fought for the motherland they deserve an annual remembrance. We should remember at other times our countries' mistakes but we shouldn't have a litmus test for who we honor. My wife went and bowed at Yasukuni and it didn't bother me. I didn't join her, lol. But I think she has a right and a duty to honor the veterans of her country just as I'm thankful to the crew of the Enola Gay no matter how offensive that may be to the people here in Hiroshima. If the Germans want to pay respects to the SS they can go ahead. It doesn't mean that they agree with what they did. It just means that in principal we honor those who fought for our country without judging them by our present values, for just one day a year. It's part of having a national identity and in a way owning up to your nation's past. To seperate them may suggest that you think they are so different it would be impossible for you to make the same mistake. We must accept that to be human means to be capable of great evil.

[Marvin Feltcher]

the criminals shouldn't have even been buried there in the first place..

I agree that's probably the problem that peeves these moaning countries, but I think there are legitimate reasons for allowing the "war criminals" to be ensrhined at Yasukuni, too.
I'm no legal expert, but the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal would have to be on very shaky ground and the crimes many of these men were convicted for had to be made up as they didn't exist prior to the end of World War II.
I'm not defending what the convicted did, but I think they were victims of victor's justice, especially as the person in who's name the entire war was fought was not even charged, let alone brought to trial.
The principle of Schroeder visiting a shrine to Hitler is indeed similar, but not the same. Koizumi is paying homage to ALL Japanese war dead, including those held responsible for a country where responsibility was deliberately shifted around as many areas as possible to make sure nobody could be held to blame.
There was, of course, one person in Japan who held ultimate responsibility, just as Hitler did, so perhaps a better analogy would be to say if Koizumi paid his respects to a certain Emperor whose grave I am staring at right now as I write here in Takao and who at least rubber-stamped if not actively participated in every decision that led Japan to war starting back as early as the 1920s and really gathering force after 1931.
Still, it really is nobody else's goddamn business who the Japanese prime minister pays respects to, nor where he does it, provided, of course, that it's not done at taxpayer's expense or in an official capacity, which would violate the Constitutional guarantee to freedom of religion by favoring one particular belief. Not that upholding the Constituion seems of vital importance to most Japanese politicians.
Shit, got on my high horse a bit here, but it annoys the hell out of me when these "bastions of purity" whose history is full of bloodshed, suppression, repression and racism come out with their "houlier-than-thou" condemnations.

[Marvin Feltcher]

Gee, this "problem" doesn't happen in Germany, just Japan. It's an intentional way for Japan to say, "go and get f""ked."

Just because they were allies, doesn't mean Japan and Germany had to be treated the same way after the war.
In addition, Hitler has always been a great excuse for the Germans. Germans have always been able get away with blaming the war on Hitler (with a fair amount of justification, I might add). Thanks to an American (as opposed to Allied) decision not to hold the only person in Japan who had ultimate responsibility for the country's actions, Japanese don't have that luxury.
Germany's apparent war guilt is overplayed and Japan's supposed lack of it is underplayed. Postwar Japan has done an enormous amount to help raise most of the countries it hurt by copying what it saw the other colonial powers it associated with doing in the prewar period. Most of those Asian countries would be bigger basket cases than they are without Japan's help, albeit with Japan serving its best interests at the same time.

[Marvin Feltcher]

A country should pay respect for their war dead no matter what the circumstances.

AssKissinger, I kiss your ass

[GomiGirl]

Isn't the shrine in question dedicated to citizens who have put their life on the life to defend the Emperor? The controversy is just that there were a few tried and convicted war criminals* during the war crimes investigations who "took the blame" and so left the Emperor uncharged.. thus these guys were, in effect, defending the emperor. I don't see what all the fuss is about.. I agree that it is always Victor's justice and the Victor's version of events that are without sin.

* I am thinking of the WWII Prime Minister here - his name was Toto, Toyo something like that??? CSTaylor please correct me.

[Caustic Saint]

Tojo.

[GomiGirl]

Tojo.

Thank you - I couldn't be arsed googling it..

I knew he were not in Kansas anymore, Toto..

[Socratesabroad]

'Victor's justice'
'the Victor's version of events'

Ahh, the added benefits of two words - 'Unconditional Surrender.'

[jez]

If the Germans want to pay respects to the SS they can go ahead. It doesn't mean that they agree with what they did..

The Germans wouldn't do that because they take the view that people have a duty to disobey immoral orders,so no-one has the excuse that they 'were just obeying orders' or 'fulfilling a patriotoic duty'.Obviously,the Japanese aren't the Germans,and what should be respected is cultural difference.Respect,however,does not mean acceptance.France was split, during the war, between occupied France and collaborationist France.I don't think any french person(non-nazi of course)would even think of paying tribute to collaborationists.Perhaps the difference is that Western culture believes in 'free will'.For the Japanese,it is understandable to abandon one's self to a leader,even if it means being immoral. That said, even during the war, there were Japanese who resisted.Just like in Germany(despite those who claimed to be following orders).
It's not a simple topic. However,I think we are intelligent enough to see things in colour,rather than black and white.The Chinese and Korean governments maybe a wee bit hypocritical when they slam Japanese leaders, but that does not automatically mean the Japanese leaders are right. It's a bit like saying if you're against the 'war on terror',you must be pro-Bin Laden...

[blackcat]

It amazes me people could support a PM visiting a war museum(thats what it is) only 60 years after many of the "people" enshrined there did some of the most evil acts in human history.

Japan does nothing to remind this generation of what they! did just honour them
For WHAT mass murder, rape?? not all that die in war should be honoured, in fact many nations punish those that act in these ways during war.

Honour all regardless of actions!! OK lets see what people say when germans Honour Nazis, when the american post office used a stamp during the anniversary of Hiroshima enpicting the Enola Gay, the japanese Gov. protested and were outraged
Fuck the hypocrits, they aways complain when they feel the slightest wronged, but couldnt give a shit or are too lazy and up themselves to consider anothers feelings at all.

many of the victims of years of rape and slavery are still alive....as are the criminals thanks to japan never prosecuting one single war criminal...as opposed to germanys 6000!!!(the trials finished last year )

in the meantime plane loads of salary-scum tour of to china/korea etc. on sex tours.

truly the japanese are in a league of their own when it comes to arrogance.

defending your family/country from an arrogant cruel invasion, there may be honour in that, but there is none for the aggressors

[devicenull]

it's not like they are specifically honoring units that carried out the bad shit... they are honoring all their war dead. im sure there are some assholes who torched villages who ended up on the nam wall in dc too.

[jingai]

No it's Toto who led Japan to war. Toto was a prewar Zaibatsu specializing in heavy industry and military toilets with two flush settings. It was determined to spread throughout Asia, replacing primitive squat toilets everywhere with its superior Japanese technology. After the war it was disbanded by MacArthur, but then came back as a civilian toilet maker.

Yasukuni isn't like Arlington Cemetery or Pearl Harbor- neutral places to honor those who fell in war. The symbolic importance of a prime minister going there is a clear sop to Japan's right-wing and is understood as such by pretty much everyone in Japan, China, and Korea, if not to FG who think it's fine.
There is a reason uyoku sound trucks circle Yasukuni, and it's because they've appropriated the shrine as a symbol of what Japan should be- a country ruled by a divine emperor where the men who created the Greater Japanese Empire are remembered as heroes rather than devils. When Koizumi goes to Yasukuni and writes "Prime Minister" in the registry it sends a clear message to the uyoku that they have support in the highest levels of government. Banzai.

[cstaylor]

war crimes investigations who "took the blame" and so left the Emperor uncharged.. thus these guys were, in effect, defending the emperor

Allow me to correct you. SCAP never planned to prosecute the Emperor. These men did not take the fall for Hirohito: his fate was already guaranteed as long as MacArthur was running the show.

These men also never defended Hirohito personally: they were defending the idea of the Imperial line and Japan as a special place. Where were they when midlevel troops stormed the Imperial palace to "protect" the Emperor from his own decision for peace?

Emperor worship for right-wing zealots was and is more about elevating themselves than anything else.

Question: why are the spirits of the war dead interred at Yasukuni instead of a Buddhist temple?

[Dynamic Jointmeister]

One Way:PEACE!

[GomiGirl]

war crimes investigations who "took the blame" and so left the Emperor uncharged.. thus these guys were, in effect, defending the emperor

Allow me to correct you. SCAP never planned to prosecute the Emperor. These men did not take the fall for Hirohito: his fate was already guaranteed as long as MacArthur was running the show.

Now I am no expert here, just read a few things but haven't yet covered all the bases to get an overall view.

But in one of the things I read, allowing Tojo and others to take the fall by telling everybody that they were acting without the permission or knowledge of Hirohito, allowed MacArthur to leave the emperor alone. If the prime minister had even hinted that even some of the atrocities were sanctioned or even condoned from on high, then MacArthur would have had no choice but to prosecute the Emperor. But this would not have been popular and would have completely changed the face of the Japan we know today.

But these things are in the past..

I don't really have a problem with the shrine as such but I do think that such public visits to the shrine by Koizumi are less for commemorating the dead but for current political tactics. Smoke and mirrors.

[ramchop]

But these things are in the past..

But it's still quite recent history... unlike:

BBC

Descendants of black American slaves are to sue Lloyd's of London for insuring ships used in the trade.

...

One plaintiff, Deadria Farmer-Paellman said the slave trade denied her identity.

"Today I suffer from the injury of not knowing who I am, having no nationality or ethnic group as a result of acts committed by these parties," she said.

I'm sure a big wad of cash would help no end.

[cstaylor]

If the prime minister had even hinted that even some of the atrocities were sanctioned or even condoned from on high, then MacArthur would have had no choice but to prosecute the Emperor. But this would not have been popular and would have completely changed the face of the Japan we know today.

I believe MacArthur would have discounted any testimony that conflicted with what he wanted to happen with that trial. There were factions at home that wanted Hirohito hanged like Mussolini, but those people weren't at the scene.

I guess I'm saying that it's Japanese revisionist history to say, "Tojo et all gave up their lives so the Emperor wouldn't be prosecuted". They had no choice in the matter: if SCAP wanted the Emperor to hang, they would have done it. There was enough evidence on either side, so it was up to the Americans which way they wanted to go.

[GomiGirl]

If the prime minister had even hinted that even some of the atrocities were sanctioned or even condoned from on high, then MacArthur would have had no choice but to prosecute the Emperor. But this would not have been popular and would have completely changed the face of the Japan we know today.

I believe MacArthur would have discounted any testimony that conflicted with what he wanted to happen with that trial. There were factions at home that wanted Hirohito hanged like Mussolini, but those people weren't at the scene.

I guess I'm saying that it's Japanese revisionist history to say, "Tojo et all gave up their lives so the Emperor wouldn't be prosecuted". They had no choice in the matter: if SCAP wanted the Emperor to hang, they would have done it. There was enough evidence on either side, so it was up to the Americans which way they wanted to go.

Well FWIW, I do think that MacArthur did the right thing in this case. To remove the Emperor would have led to an uprising against the occupation forces..

I was just musing on some stuff I read lately..

[cstaylor]

Well FWIW, I do think that MacArthur did the right thing in this case. To remove the Emperor would have led to an uprising against the occupation forces..

I think that's overstated.
Once the guns had been pried from the hands of the rightwingers, that was probably the only chance Japan will ever have to rid themselves of the royal family. For their part, they have done a very good job of ingratiating themselves with the general public, with two generations marrying well-to-do commoners instead of other members of the elite (Akihito did it over the protests of his mother).