US to Fingerprint British, Japanese Visitors, Other Allies

[Steve Bildermann]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/nm/20040402/ts_nm/security_usa_visas__dc

I was fingerprinted and photographed on my recent visit to LA. As they say it only took about 10 seconds. I don't think it's such a big deal as many people are making out. I know for a fact that Hi resolution CCTV cameras have been operating at all UK airports for several years now and all incoming passengers must go through several ID checks even though we are part of the EU and travel between EU countries is supposed to be almost transparent these days.

One thing I did notice though is the redesign of LAX airport. Each airline has it's own compartmentalized departure area. Once you have gone through checking and X-Ray (you have to remove everything except bare minimum clothing - shoes have to go through X-ray) you find yourself in one area that services just the Arline you are traveling on. It has one Starbucks, One snack bar, one souvenir shop and one magazine store and that's it. Everyone in the place is traveling on the same airline, ergo 32 airlines - 32 starbucks, 32 snack bars etc.

There are a lot of cameras and visible security walking round. I also suspect there is a system for tracking each passengers whereabouts in this area through their boarding pass as I saw several unmanned xray-infrared devices built into the walls. I suppose with this setup they could also be reading the contents of my notebook HDD and IPOD too!

I arrived early going both ways and just relaxed and followed along like the good sheep I am. I didn't have any problems at all. In fact, all of this made for a much smoother journey.

[Andocrates]

What's wrong with it is what it will do to us in the future. Everything starts like this, the frog in the kettle syndrome. I have voted repulbican all my wife, but this year I'm voting for Kerry. He's an ass to, but at least he isn't Bush.

[Caustic Saint]

I expect before too long they'll start fingerprinting US citizens who leave the country. They'll cook up some feel-good, "can't let the terrorists win" excuse for it, and all the sheeple will follow along "for the good of the country."

Looks like the slope is starting to get awfully slippery....

[DJEB]

I have voted repulbican all my wife...

Saying a Freudian slip is one thing, typing it is a mother... I mean another.

[Socratesabroad]

Oooh, oooh, the US is turning into Big Brother - 1984 is here!!!

Enough of the 'frog in the kettle' and 'slippery slope' analogies. Just looking at a few similar reports, one would find that far more extensive measures than fingerprinting are already planned in such totalitarian states as, say, the Netherlands:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/03/politics/03TRAV.html?pagewanted=2&hp
Ms. de Haan said the Dutch government viewed the new regulations as a temporary measure because the Netherlands and other European countries were working on creating new passports with facial-recognition technology that may eliminate the need for American officials to take the fingerprints of European visitors.

Given the choice between being grilled by Chinese immigration officials over whether my US passport and visa were 'real' and the digital fingerprinting, I'd have chosen fingerprinting in a heartbeat...

[kamome]

I find it strange that fingerprinting in certain cultures is considered an insult. Shouldn't it depend on context? If everyone is being fingerprinted and photographed without regard to your background, race or culture, why should it feel like you're being criminalized?

[Alcazar]

[canman]

I was reading where a Japanese official stated that Japanese people feel a little uncomfortable with the finger printing process the US is now demanding. And I'm thinking then what the hell are YOU doing finger printing every gaijin who wants to stay and work in your country. Talk about a double standard.

[Caustic Saint]

I was reading where a Japanese official stated that Japanese people feel a little uncomfortable with the finger printing process the US is now demanding. And I'm thinking then what the hell are YOU doing finger printing every gaijin who wants to stay and work in your country. Talk about a double standard.

It'd only be a double standard if they fingerprinted everybody coming into the country. I've been to Japan 3 times and never been fingerprinted.

Work visas and longer-term stays are a separate issue.

[Steve Bildermann]

The actions of the INS (which come under the Dept of Justice) are actually rather free from bureaucratic oversight (as are most countries immigration departments) simply because they only deal with non citizens hence complaints of misconduct are never made by citizens of that particular country therefore politicians don't see it as a 'vote-getter' issue. Who cares if a few immigrants get their butts kicked. 'Not my problem'

However I'm not at all worried by this massive 1984-like collection of personal data under the new regulations because I have actually been to the INS head office and seen the so called 'hi-tech' data storage system currently in use.

Trust me you have never seen a more untidy, ill kept jungle of files, boxes, cabinets, out date computer tapes, 8" disks and just plain old notes on the backs of an envelopes.

It's a complete f*** mess. They can't find anything. Each case that comes up means you start a new file rather than try to find earlier documents.

This new US-VISIT program will only just add to the mountain of data.

[ramchop]

It'd only be a double standard if they fingerprinted everybody coming into the country. I've been to Japan 3 times and never been fingerprinted.

Work visas and longer-term stays are a separate issue.

Are they? Maybe I'm special, I didn't get done coming to Japan... last time I was fingerprinted was as a 10year old off to to live in Indonesia for a couple of years.

[kamome]

It'd only be a double standard if they fingerprinted everybody coming into the country. I've been to Japan 3 times and never been fingerprinted.

Work visas and longer-term stays are a separate issue.

Are they? Maybe I'm special, I didn't get done coming to Japan... last time I was fingerprinted was as a 10year old off to to live in Indonesia for a couple of years.

You didn't get fingerprinted to obtain your gaijin card or visa in Japan?

[ramchop]

You didn't get fingerprinted to obtain your gaijin card or visa in Japan?

Nope... maybe they don't do it anymore

1) They are downright insulting. Why must I carry around ID like I'm a suspected criminal? At least they are doing away with the fingerprint.

[GomiGirl]

They stopped fingerprinting in Japan around 2000. I had a choice to have a fingerprint one or not.. I chose to have my fingerprint on the card as I thought it looked cool.

[Socratesabroad]

The Japanese gov't has revised the fingerprinting process a bit.

For details (hey, it's Japan Today, but the facts are there):
http://www.japantoday.com/gidx/news220589.html

Under the revised law (of 1992) , permanent foreign residents, most ethnic Koreans and Chinese, are no longer required to be fingerprinted.

That said, I was fingerprinted to get my first work visa years ago. The print remained on my gaijin card until I renewed it a third or fourth time after moving to Tokyo in the late 90s. By then, they had scrapped the fingerprint in favor of one's signature. I guess my original fingerprint is till on file, though....

[Damn]

[Big Booger]

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand there is the privacy and freedom issue. On the other, there is the fact that a terrorist or other criminal might try to hijack the plane or something like that.

I think when a government goes overboard in the name of security, it's too much. In this case, I think this should be dealt with at the passport level, not at the airport. Criminals and terrorists without access to passports, can't fly anyway..

I wonder how many suspects they have nabbed so far using this scheme?

[Alcazar]

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand there is the privacy and freedom issue. On the other, there is the fact that a terrorist or other criminal might try to hijack the plane or something like that.

I think when a government goes overboard in the name of security, it's too much. In this case, I think this should be dealt with at the passport level, not at the airport. Criminals and terrorists without access to passports, can't fly anyway..

I wonder how many suspects they have nabbed so far using this scheme?

A larger reason why this is being done, and rightly so, is to build a comprehensive database of biometric information. Getting the images and prints of foriegners who travel is a way to do this. Later this system will be extended to Americans travelling overseas too-the authorities already said this. It is a rather painless way to implement this kind of data collection policy-other methods would be politically more difficult.

Later still, once the precedent is set for gathering people's images and fingerprints, people will later have to submit to retina scans-another form of biometric information.

People's biometric information in the database will eventually be used in combination with CCTV security cameras which will eventually employ refined biometric scanning technology-eg facial recognition and identification of people entering key locations such as shopping malls, stadiums, public locations of gathering, government buildings, airports, public transport facilities, schools, universities etc etc etc.

[GomiGirl]

And you think this is a good thing????

[Alcazar]

And you think this is a good thing????

Well yeah. Using this system you can find known terrorists, wanted criminals, track people based on their parole conditions, solve crimes, prevent crimes through deterrence, track the movement of known paedophiles, find lost children, reduce fraud etc etc.

[kamome]

And you think this is a good thing????

Well yeah. Using this system you can find known terrorists, wanted criminals, track people based on their parole conditions, solve crimes, prevent crimes through deterrence, track the movement of known paedophiles, find lost children, reduce fraud etc etc.

Well, those are upsides, but it would be naive to think that there isn't a risk of abuse (Big Brother and all that).

[Alcazar]

Well, those are upsides, but it would be naive to think that there isn't a risk of abuse (Big Brother and all that).

I am aware of that, but I can't imagine what such a Big Brother would be, and why it would be dangerous to the public. Who else would the system be used to track? I don't see anything/anyone else emerging as such as threat to the state that a BB system would have to be used against them.

[AssKissinger]

What if they had my info big brotherized and I wanted to smoke a doober and it still wasn't legal. Could they tell I was stoned. Like, you know, if my eyes were red or whatever?

[Alcazar]

What if they had my info big brotherized and I wanted to smoke a doober and it still wasn't legal. Could they tell I was stoned. Like, you know, if my eyes were red or whatever?

I don't think so, maybe only for a retinal scan (only entering certain enclosed areas), and then probably not-a machine wouldn't be checking for that.

You'll still be able to puff in peace....

[GuyJean]

It's a tough issue; giving up freedom's in the name of security..

Interesting that none of this technology would catch the 'new', or unknown terrorists the US is now creating. Or Bin Laden himself, for that matter..

I also foresee a rise in anti-governmental militias within the United States.. And guess what? They don't wear turbins and aren't named Muhammed. Billy-Bob Smith drives a pick-up truck and hunts rabbits.

If the CIA and FBI would've communicated before 9/11, they could've used existing laws (before Homerland Security) to catch at least 3 of the 19 terrorists.. Hhhhmm?

Canada's lookin' mighty nice right about now.

GJ

[Steve Bildermann]

I also foresee a rise in anti-governmental militias within the United States

That's very true. In the rush to accuse and vilify Muslims it is often forgotten that prior to 9/11 the single most deadly peacetime attack on US soil was the 1995 Oklahoma bombing which killed 168 people, including 19 children, and injured more than 500 others

Timothy McVeigh, a 33-year-old Gulf War veteran and ardent militia follower, was convicted of carrying out the bombing and sentenced to death by lethal injection.

OKLAHOMA BOMBING: TERRORISM, 'MADE IN THE USA'

Oklahoma City Bombing

[Caustic Saint]

A larger reason why this is being done, and rightly so, is to build a comprehensive database of biometric information. Getting the images and prints of foriegners who travel is a way to do this. Later this system will be extended to Americans travelling overseas too-the authorities already said this. It is a rather painless way to implement this kind of data collection policy-other methods would be politically more difficult.

Later still, once the precedent is set for gathering people's images and fingerprints, people will later have to submit to retina scans-another form of biometric information.

The fact that you see nothing wrong with this is just as spooky as the politicians getting bills to allow this passed. How much longer until we have national ID cards? Or until people get fingerprinted while flying within the US?

A precedent should not be set for any such thing. Would you think this was such a great idea if your own country was doing this, and not the US?

[Steve Bildermann]

[gomichild]

Fingerprinting is messy, cards get lost or stolen - it's time for the ID Chip (tm)

Quick and Painless! Never be misindentified again!

[kamome]

Fingerprinting is messy, cards get lost or stolen - it's time for the ID Chip (tm)

Quick and Painless! Never be misindentified again!

GC, I think they stopped using ink-based fingerprinting for biometric identification. It's all electronic-based fingerprinting (how it works, I have no clue).

[GomiGirl]

Fingerprinting is messy, cards get lost or stolen - it's time for the ID Chip (tm)

Quick and Painless! Never be misindentified again!

GC, I think they stopped using ink-based fingerprinting for biometric identification. It's all electronic-based fingerprinting (how it works, I have no clue).

Ask CSTaylor - the master of the fingerprint scanner!!

And to Alcazar.. I know that technology is moving this way and there are upsides.. but please do not be naive and think that this sort of power will be abused. I do not want the control of my life placed in the hands of somebody less intelligent than myself. Checks and balances are required.

I don't have the time to (re)educate you on this matter, but if you read so much, read some political history and see how abolute power has afftected the "so called" benevolent leaders. Read them from a human point of view and not from a left and right point of view.