Debito makes the NY Times!

[cstaylor]

Foreigners Try to Melt an Inhospitable Japanese City

David Aldwinckle, a bespectacled native of Geneva, New York, braced himself for confrontation when he walked into Joy, a restaurant that, like many establishments here, posted a sign that was a variation on a popular theme here: "Japanese Only."

[Taro Toporific]

Foreigners Try to Melt an Inhospitable Japanese City
...David Aldwinckle ...

Great title ....But it seems to be a rehash of last month's International Herald Tribune story.

[AssKissinger]

I think if you own a business you should be able to turn away whoever you want. I bet the Russians really are total assholes. Don't get me wrong, I like Russians. When I lived in Pusan I enjoyed drinking with those crazy nutters. But that doesn't mean I would want them in my bar.

If the folks in that town don't like gaijin who cares? Why the fuck would anyone fight for the right to give their business to assholes who hate them? They're just going to end up eating big loogies that were secretly hocked into their spaghetti. They want to pretend it's like the civil rights struggle in the States or apartheid or whatever but that's just not reality in Japan.

[cstaylor]

They want to pretend it's like the civil rights struggle in the States or apartheid or whatever but that's just not reality in Japan.

I don't see the difference, except no one has been lynched yet.

I think if you own a business you should be able to turn away whoever you want.

Not if you're in the business of providing the public with basic services like food or renting out a dwelling that's not your primary residence. Next you'll be telling us you don't need to own a license to run a business that provides services to the public.

If you want to become a members-only club, charge a suitable entrance fee, sure, you can turn away non-members.

Here's the real reason:

"Before, when Russians were in here, Japanese customers would look in, and then slam the door," Hiroaki Okamura, the 25-year-old owner of Bar Raum, said to explain why he posted his "Japanese Only" sign last August.

So, how can a Japanese customer tell the difference, just looking through the dimly lit room, that the customer is Russian, and not an English teacher or a Japanese citizen of foreign birth (Debito)? Why not just tell it like it is, "We cater to racists, since they're our largest customers".

[kamome]

Not if you're in the business of providing the public with basic services like food or renting out a dwelling that's not your primary residence. Next you'll be telling us you don't need to own a license to run a business that provides services to the public.

If you want to become a members-only club, charge a suitable entrance fee, sure, you can turn away non-members.

Why not just tell it like it is, "We cater to racists, since they're our largest customers".

Well said. I would put it another way: banning all foreigners is an overbroad response to the problem. Why should all foreigners be banned from Japanese businesses for the actions of a few?

[AssKissinger]

Well said. I would put it another way: banning all foreigners is an overbroad response to the problem. Why should all foreigners be banned from Japanese businesses for the actions of a few?

I agree it's overboard. I just don't think a business owner should be forced to serve people he doesn't like. And he definitely shouldn't be forced to serve people if in the long run it hurts his business. I have a more libertarian (and perhaps racist) attitude about it. When I lived in Aichi there were lots of Brazilians in my neighborhood. I actually lived in a dormitory where everyone was Brazilian except for me. I lived there for about three months and enjoyed learning about Brazilian culture and I especially enjoyed eating Brazilian food. On the other hand, when my wife and I started looking for an apartment we intentionally avoided buildings that housed Brazilians. Our reason was simple. Brazilians are fucking noisy. Is it just a stereotype? I don't think so. From what I've seen Brazilians really do tend to kick up a ruckus. Believe me it's not easy to find a place that discriminates against Brazilians but will let another gaijin in. In that area it seemed that all the apartments that let in foreigners were already stuffed with Brazilians. But how could I fault a Japanese landlord for his bigotry while at the same time looking for exactly what he was providing? I just wanted a quiet apartment. It turns out there are places that will take an American English teacher but won't take a Brazilian family. I don't think discrimination is a good thing and I certainly don't like being on the short end of it but sometimes there are reasons why things are the way they are.

[cstaylor]

You're renting, not lending. You have the right to take your business elsewhere, but the landlord doesn't have the right to refuse you service for being a foreigner, especially since your wife can be your hosho-nin.

[cstaylor]

I just don't think a business owner should be forced to serve people he doesn't like.

Then make the business members-only and be done with it. Landlords and public restaurants are another matter altogether; if the landlord or shop owner doesn't like it, close the shop and do something else.

[Big Booger]

I think it should be a case by case basis.. to say Japanese only is horseshit...

I've been in bars where Japanese are the PROBLEM... and this is not just a lone instance...

If you have a problem customer, you should hire security that are capable enough to remove anyone, regardless of size..

If you find that you rented to a loud tenant, you can issue a warning.. put a "quiet clause" in the contract, and always evict???

In a bar/restaurant/snack etc... if a patron gets loud or disorderly, you can call the police, hire security, or cut them off before they get too disorderly due to alcohol.

Discrimination based on "looks" is horrendous... She looks foreign but we are not letting them in...

and then you got the J-only BJ bars/snacks and the like that employ foreign women but deny entry to gaijin men... That is seriously fucked...

I say if you have the yen, you are willing to pay, and you are not disturbing others, you should be permitted entry....

So I suppose if I open a gaijin bar, I should be allowed to put a sign up saying "Gaijin Only"????

I wonder if that would work?

[AssKissinger]

So I suppose if I open a gaijin bar, I should be allowed to put a sign up saying "Gaijin Only"????

I'll see you there! Why the Hell not if it's your place? To tell the truth I wouldn't mind a bar with absolutely no JPN at all just to chill out in and clear my head from all their J-bullshit sometimes.

BTW, Korea has bars and hotels that only accept foreigners but they're actually owned by Koreans. And in Japan, what about gaijin houses? Can JPN live in those places?

[DJEB]

Don't think I could ad to what Chris said.

"Before, when Russians were in here, Japanese customers would look in, and then slam the door," Hiroaki Okamura, the 25-year-old owner of Bar Raum, said to explain why he posted his "Japanese Only" sign last August.

Maybe the problem is not enough Russians.

[torasan]

Foreigners Try to Melt an Inhospitable Japanese City
...David Aldwinckle ...

Great title ....But it seems to be a rehash of last month's International Herald Tribune story.

Yes, it's very strange. The IHT had almost the same story by the same reporer last month, 99 percent the same, and the IHT is owned by the TImes, too. Why would they release a story in their intl paper before releasing it in their national paper, which via Internet, is also an international paper. The New York Times is crazt these days.

But a good story, none the less.

[Samurai_Jerk]

BTW, Korea has bars and hotels that only accept foreigners but they're actually owned by Koreans.

I've heard about places like that. I've also heard there are bars that won't admit Korean men but will admit foreigners and local girls since it's Korean men than cause most of the trouble.

[Taro Toporific]

Foreigners Try to Melt an Inhospitable Japanese City
...David Aldwinckle ...

Great title ....But it seems to be a rehash of last month's International Herald Tribune story.

Yes, it's very strange. The IHT had almost the same story by the same reporter last month, 99 percent the same, and the IHT is owned by the TImes, too. ...The New York Times is crazy these days.

Yep, here's Steve Bildermann's old FG thread: In Japan, the disdain for foreigners is spelled out

MONBETSU, Japan The bespectacled Western native braced himself for confrontation when he walked into Joy, a restaurant with a reputation here for not serving foreigners. Offering food and drink on an all-you-can-consume system, Joy's managers faced a universal challenge in this port on the Sea of Okhotsk: how to deal with Russian sailors? But rather than translate the restaurant rules into Russian, the manager took a path favored here, posting a large sign in Russian: "no Japanese, no service."

Herald Tribune

In elections last autumn, one prefectural governor only grudgingly apologized after calling foreigners "sneaky thieves."

On a recent weekend, exclusionary signs were targets for a trio of activists for foreigners' rights in Japan: David Aldwinckle, born in America but now a Japanese citizen who goes by the name of Arudou Debito]

The amazing crusading Arudou Debito

[jim katta]

what I don't see ANYONE mentioning here is that if you read the entire New York Times article, you'll see that because of Debito that restaurant REMOVED the sign. I don't care how much of a pompous dick some people seem to think Debito is, I APPLAUD him for his efforts and hope more gaijins in Japan have the courage and skill to pull off such efforts.

[jim katta]

[Mr. Aldwinckle says the only solution is direct action. On this visit, his fourth since 2000, he scored three for three. He persuaded the managers of a karaoke bar, the Joy restaurant and Bar Raum to take down their discriminatory signs. Shinobu Miyajima, manager and hostess at the Holstein bar, said she took down her "Japanese Only" sign five years ago. Between pouring drinks and lighting cigarettes, she said: "Sometimes Japanese companies would come here with Russian clients. The sign got to be embarrassing."]

[devicenull]

reverse discrimination is the weirdest.... when im in china, i will be taking a train from beijing to hangzhou for like 14 hours. its dirt cheap, and great quality... but the funny thing is that it is for foreigners only. there used to be incidents of foreigners getting robbed or whatever when they were asleep... so, they put a ban on chinese from riding the train.

[kidrock12xp]

Indeed devicenull, that is weird.

[Big Booger]

Indeed devicenull, that is weird.

Devicenull and weird in the same sentence.. who would have thunk it?

[AssKissinger]

Yeah, Devicenull. India has that kind of stuff too. Foreigner only lines at train stations and segregated cars on the trains. I didn't mind taking advantage of it when I was there. Everything is so crazy, unless you've traveled through India on third class trains I don't really care what you think about it.

Reverse discrimination! Yeah, that's a good one. Many Japanese folks here always ask 'Where are you from?' and as soon as I say 'USA/California' they've got the red carpet already rolled out, the gold-flake sake poured, the sumptious feast served. Its almost like, well, like becoming a 'PET GAIJIN' because, of course, we're now 'BEST FRIENDS' and its 'anything you want, anytime, you don't have to worry about anything' etc. etc. etc. When I was fresh off the boat I used to buy this hook, line and sinker. Now I just cut it off right away.

I hear you Pongi, but Japan and China are for sure different balls of wax.

I too cut it off right away regarding faux friendships in Japan. I believe that unless you're family or it's very unusual circumstances it's impossible for gaijin and JPN to be real friends. Let me say this to all the gaijin out there: You do not have any Japanese friends. If you think you do you are wrong. It's all a bunch of fake bullshit. If you haven't come to terms with this you should avoid plans for long term residency.

As for Mr. Debito's accomplishment, I too applaud him. And I'm glad it was carried by The New York Times. Perhaps it will start a significant change in the average Japanese mindset towards foreigners who are living and working here. Well, one would certainly hope so, but I'm not going to hold my breath on that one. No way.

Well it's a good thing you're not holding your breath cause he's nowhere near the problem. To all of us who live here it should be obvious. Institutionalized racism is not the problem. Being refused in public businesses is not even a small problem. It absolutely in no way impacts our lives at all. So why applaud Debito? I'm pretty sure this is a guy who thinks he has Japanese friends. He can pretend he's on a civil rights crusade but that approach will never address the problem for foreigners in Japan. The problem is the Japanese are full of shit on a personal level and you can't legislate what's in people's hearts. You can tell them to their faces their a bunch of phoney cunts when they're pretending to be nice to you but that would leave you vulnerable to looking like an asshole. I think that guy who I think was actually banned from here, Shinigami, was more on track as to dealing with the real problems in this fucking place than Debito.

All that said, I still want everyone to know I love Japan.

[Taro Toporific]

[cstaylor]

Let me say this to all the gaijin out there: You do not have any Japanese friends.

The sad thing is, I think it's difficult for Japanese to have friends among themselves as well. Pretty lonely place.

[Big Booger]

http://www.hikikomori-navi.com/

[GomiGirl]

I am curious as to how you define a real friend.

I know lots of people... some I consider friends (whether that be for a fleeting moment or longer) os simply acquaintances but I also have friends who I consider true friends who I really would do anything for and I know they would do the same for me.

I don't think that a true friend is limited by a nationality, rather by intimacy and that is determined by the personalities involved and a certain amount of time and effort of both parties.

That said, it is true that this level of friendship is more difficult to achieve when there are cultural issues, but it is not impossible. To think that is too fatalistic for my pollyanna mentality.

[kamome]

I believe that unless you're family or it's very unusual circumstances it's impossible for gaijin and JPN to be real friends. Let me say this to all the gaijin out there: You do not have any Japanese friends. If you think you do you are wrong. It's all a bunch of fake bullshit. If you haven't come to terms with this you should avoid plans for long term residency.

I was tempted to argue with you on that AK, but sadly, I think there's a lot of truth to what you say. J's and FG's can become friends, but I have always felt that I can be closer and more frank with my Gaijin friends than my Japanese friends.

I'm not sure if that can be blamed on the Japanese, though. This is just how I personally feel towards them. I think some of my Japanese friends would like to be closer and more frank with me, but it's tough for me to let them in. To pu tit another way, I have Japanese acquaintances who fit the definition of a friend, but my closer relationships are usually with my gaijin friends.

[cstaylor]

It's gotta be the cultural divide... I mean, without good humor, how can you be friends?

[GomiGirl]

It's gotta be the cultural divide... I mean, without good humor, how can you be friends?

Isn't that good humour???

Or does that fit in the same category as cobblers, my friend???

BTW You always keep me in stitches Mr Taylor!!

[cstaylor]

Cobblers and piss (inside joke).

[kamome]

Or does that fit in the same category as cobblers, my friend???

BTW You always keep me in stitches Mr Taylor!!

Cobblers and piss (inside joke).

Hey, it was my joke! MINE, damnit!

[AssKissinger]

Does anybody here agree with my opinion that fighting racism on a legal level is not a worthwhile pursuit for westerners in Japan?