waiguoren no likey pinyin

by **devicenull** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:31 pm

needs moar IPA... that is all

by **Taro Toporific** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:53 pm

devicenull wrote:needs moar IPA... that is all

Ok, to translate for the rest-of-the-folks out there...

Null-kun doesn't like pinyin, the standard Roman-letters-with-accents method of transcribing Chinese, and he prefers the International Phonetic Alphabet which captures all the subtle sounds like glottal-n-nasals in Chinese. It's the snobby battle implicit vs explicit phonetic description. Pinyin renders perhaps 25% slightly wrong" as opposed to Katakana in Japan making 99% of English pronunciation wrong.

*TinaTeoh? What's your opinion on pinyin?

by **devicenull** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 12:59 pm

my gripe is that it is utterly confusing to try and learn any pronunciation based on pinyin alone. it cuts out vowels for economy, and is really really crude. the books dont cover IPA because the authors feel it is too hard to have to learn IPA, pinyin, and hanzi. pain in head

by **Taro Toporific** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:01 pm

devicenull wrote:my gripe is that it is utterly confusing to try and learn any pronunciation based on pinyin alone. it cuts out vowels for economy, and is really really crude... pain in head

Vwls wh nds thm? Jst try stdyng 'ld Hbrw.

by **mercutio** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:18 pm

devicenull wrote:my gripe is that it is utterly confusing to try and learn any pronunciation based on pinyin alone. it cuts out vowels for economy, and is really really crude. the books dont cover IPA because the authors feel it is too hard to have to learn IPA, pinyin, and hanzi. pain in head

Well as far as I know pinyin doesnt actually leave out any vowels. The biggest difficulty is that even though they all look like english letters their pinyin pronunciation is completely different. Think of it like the cyrillic alphabet for eastern european languages, just because it looks like an english "c" (or any other letter) it is not necessarily pronouced the way you would pronounce it in english.

IPA probably isnt covered for much the same reason that esparanto isnt taught in schools...

by **Socratesabroad** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:11 pm

Well, since I'm currently studying Chinese in China, I can say that pinyin is a pain, but the locals (who are literate) use it.

Besides, pinyin is convenient for IME/keyboard entry with a good IME program (the Chinese version of ATOK). Can IPA be used for IME entry?

by **mercutio** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:42 pm

Socratesabroad wrote:Well, since I'm currently studying Chinese in China, I can say that pinyin is a pain, but the locals (who are literate) use it.

Besides, pinyin is convenient for IME/keyboard entry with a good IME program (the Chinese version of ATOK). Can IPA be used for IME entry?

Yeah thats kinda my point...I think I can agree Pinyin is a pain (Im currently studying Chinse at a Japanese University - masochistic or insane? probably both) but its the best alternative we have based on portability and recognizability. No system is perfect but with Pinyin there are at least other people who will recognize it

damn, Ive gotta learn how to type in pinyin for IME! hell i should learn to type in english first

by **devicenull** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:27 pm

Socratesabroad wrote:Well, since I'm currently studying Chinese in China, I can say that pinyin is a pain, but the locals (who are literate) use it.

Besides, pinyin is convenient for IME/keyboard entry with a good IME program (the Chinese version of ATOK). Can IPA be used for IME entry?

heh, where you at?

by **Socratesabroad** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 6:42 pm

Tianjin.

While living in Japan for a number of years, I too studied Chinese at language schools in Japan, although the difference when one must use it daily is striking.

One of my teachers was a grad student from Dalian, so I visited Dalian a few times and studied at a local uni for a couple of weeks.

To make a long story short, I quit my job, moved to Tianjin Feb. this year, and I'm working on regular admittance to Tianjin U.

Yeah, I thought about Japanese uni. and took the foreign students' exam with decent marks in everything except math - I knew blowing off calculus would come back to haunt me. Well, prices in Tokyo are too high to endure while jobless in a juku, so China is much more in line with my budget...

by **tidbits** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:10 pm

*TinaTeoh? What's your opinion on pinyin?

I learnt (Zhu Yin Fu Hao)Bo Po Mo Fo (system of phonetic symbols-looked very much like Katakana) in primary school, but then out of the sudden the education ministry burnt all the Bo Po Mo Fo books and switch to Han Yu Pin Yin. (Same thing happen to me in learning Kanji-I was learning the original Kanji for years and have to switch to the simplified Kanji) It was hard for me to adapt at that time (I felt Bo Po Mo Fo way was easier and more accurate.) I was having problem that Mercutio poited out: it looks like an english "c" (or any other letter) but it is not necessarily pronouced the way you would pronounce it in english. I am still not very good at Han Yu Pin Yin although I know well which tone to use, and worst is, I forgot all the Bo Po Mo Fo phonetic symbols since I haven't seen them for ages.

by **devicenull** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:39 pm

tinateoh wrote:
*TinaTeoh? What's your opinion on pinyin?

I learnt (Zhu Yin Fu Hao)Bo Po Mo Fo (system of phonetic symbols-looked very much like Katakana) in primary school, but then out of the sudden the education ministry burnt all the Bo Po Mo Fo books and switch to Han Yu Pin Yin. (Same thing happen to me in learning Kanji-I was learning the original Kanji for years and have to switch to the simplified Kanji) It was hard for me to adapt at that time (I felt Bo Po Mo Fo way was easier and more accurate.) I was having problem that Mercutio poited out: it looks like an english "c" (or any other letter) but it is not necessarily pronouced the way you would pronounce it in english. I am still not very good at Han Yu Pin Yin although I know well which tone to use, and worst is, I forgot all the Bo Po Mo Fo phonetic symbols since I haven't seen them for ages.

taiwan seems to like to use them for some reason

by **tidbits** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:50 pm

taiwan seems to like to use them for some reason

Yes, I think so, I read on the internet that Taiwan is still using Bo Po Mo Fo. We followed Taiwan's way, after that decided to switch to China's way (In Pin Yin and Kanji).

by **kamome** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:06 pm

Errr...so did anybody take the JETRO exam that was just administered? Was it difficult? I believe Mercutio did it.

by **GomiGirl** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:32 pm

tinateoh wrote:
taiwan seems to like to use them for some reason

Yes, I think so, I read on the internet that Taiwan is still using Bo Po Mo Fo. We followed Taiwan's way, after that decided to switch to China's way (In Pin Yin and Kanji).

Now to all you clever chinese speakers/typists out there, correct me if I am wrong...

Isn't it possible to choose which input method you use???

We made a traditional chinese mobile device a few years ago and we included many many many input methods as there were preferences in the different markets.. Taiwanese users prefered the Zhu Yin (which I cannot pronounce after being taught a zillion times), there was also WuBi and Quick for the HK users and so on. The user was able to choose the prefered one from the control panel.

Isn't it best just to find the one you like and stick with it? For example, I cannot type on a kana keyboard and prefer only one ATOK for my japanese...

by **tidbits** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:46 pm

by **mercutio** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:51 pm

kamome wrote:Errr...so did anybody take the JETRO exam that was just administered? Was it difficult? I believe Mercutio did it.

Yeah, Im taking it but it hasnt happened yet. Its on the 27th

Ill let you know how it goes

by **Socratesabroad** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:50 pm

devicenull wrote:heh, where you at?

DN, are you still at beida? Just saw one of the other posts. So how long have you been been at beida?

Curious is all....

by **Socratesabroad** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:05 pm

GomiGirl wrote:
Now to all you clever chinese speakers/typists out there, correct me if I am wrong...

Isn't it possible to choose which input method you use???

Isn't it best just to find the one you like and stick with it? For example, I cannot type on a kana keyboard and prefer only one ATOK for my japanese...

Yep, which is why I use pinyin because it's convenient for typing and computer work - and I can't be bothered with the tones. I use a Chinese equivalent of ATOK ('Crazy Input' or something like that), and it has the same anticipatory and word completion functions. It saves time just like ATOK and works better than the standard IME.

A different problem is that my keyboard died a few days ago, so now I'm stuck using a Chinese one for the time being (I did buy a Japanese one here for emergencies, but it's too small for my, uh, robust fingers). Decent size but I seem to be missing some keys...

by **devicenull** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:32 am

Socratesabroad wrote:
devicenull wrote:heh, where you at?

DN, are you still at beida? Just saw one of the other posts. So how long have you been been at beida?

Curious is all....

yep... been here since monday :P

i am so FOB

by **Socratesabroad** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:53 am

Apologies to everyone else...

So, DN, how long will you be in China?

by **devicenull** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:27 pm

Socratesabroad wrote:Apologies to everyone else...

So, DN, how long will you be in China?

till sept 13th about.

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waiguoren no likey pinyin

waiguoren no likey pinyin

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