Veganism in Japan: "Let them eat sashimi."

[Taro Toporific]

Veganism/VegetarianismNetAlive.org / Food Forum / Aug 11----I encountered a most interesting perspective on being a vegan/vegetarian today.
In a Tokyo help forum, a girl who is vegan posted a request for assistance in finding a store that sells non-animal-product art supplies (most specifically glue), because she is a vegan.....
Anyway, a guy who lives in the Dominican Republic posted a surprising response. (Why he was posting on a Tokyo forum, I have no idea). But basically, he told her that she infuriated him, and that he envied the richness of her life, that she could so casually and fussily pick and choose what food she wanted to eat.......more...-

[Charles]

Oh jeez, I have heard this one before. I've heard it over and over. I know exactly what the problem is here. Ms. Veg-head is taking an oil painting class, and does not want to do the lesson about priming canvases with "rabbit skin glue." She thinks the glue is made from the skin of fluffy little bunnies. It is actually made from cattle hooves.

Ms. Veg-Head would be better advised to worry about the part of the lesson that comes AFTER she primes her canvas with Rabbit Skin Glue, when you are taught how to gesso the canvas with highly toxic White Lead paint. Be sure to use LOTS of water when you clean your brushes and rinse that lead down the sink, remember, it all ends up in the ocean eventually.

[khusam]

Charles, you`re partly correct. Cheaper hide glues are usually from cattle. The good stuff IS rabbit, though. In Tokyo, we can buy the best quality materials easily. Including real rabbitskin glue in sheet form. (The best way to check its quality is in sheets.)

Most of the cracking problems seen on older works stem directly from the animal hide glues used, though. I`d switch to PVA.

If you`re animal/environmental conscious, sealing the surface with PVA then using an acrylic gesso MAY provide a stable surface. There isn`t enough history to the newer, high-quality acrylics to tell.

If I`m working on something that I have to guarantee for longevity, I use PVA with lead-based gesso, but I don`t clean the brush. I keep it in a bag in the freezer until the job is done, then throw it away with other hazardous waste. I don`t use pigments such as cadmiums on paintings as I can`t afford to throw my good brushes away...

For more information, people should contact Gamblin Artist Colors in Portland.

[devicenull]

i really fucking despise vegans

[xUmex]

This link can maybe be useful:
http://www.happycow.net/asia/japan/tokyo/


Vegans kicks ass!

[devicenull]

incorrect, vegans must fucking die and be fed to the animals they refused to eat... then we eat the animals... completing the circle of life

[Cubed]

incorrect, vegans must fucking die

Isn't that being racialist? Coz I saw vegans on startrek which I don't watch much but me flatmate terry likes it and keeps the remote so anyway theyz nice enough green people.

[Charles]

If I`m working on something that I have to guarantee for longevity, I use PVA with lead-based gesso, but I don`t clean the brush. I keep it in a bag in the freezer until the job is done, then throw it away with other hazardous waste. I don`t use pigments such as cadmiums on paintings as I can`t afford to throw my good brushes away...

I just saw your followup, sorry for the late response.

I'm not a big fan of the traditional glue/white lead/oil ground for oil painting. I don't like working with tons of toxic lead, and it takes forever to dry before you can ever paint on it.

But I don't see why you should be similarly worried about the small amounts of cadmium, or why you'd want to toss brushes that even touched it. Cadmium colors are vital. I remember when the US proposed a ban on cadmium paints, I stocked up on a few favorite oil paints for fear I'd never be able to purchase them again. Fortunately the rules were reinterpreted to exempt artist's oil paints, they weren't considered a huge environmental threat. They just wanted to eliminate cadmium from bulk applications like house paint.

[Thanatos' embalmed botfly]

This link can maybe be useful:
http://www.happycow.net/asia/japan/tokyo/
Vegans kicks ass!

Umex. Jane Doe. CONVERGE. My life has been reduced to an interval until I get my smeggy hands on the new "You fail me" lp.

Carry on.

[String]

What's the reason for hating someone because they have a different diet than you do?

I was vegan for a few years, and am still vegetarian. In my hometown in the craptastic Midwestern United States, people would get a look of fear in their eyes upon finding out I was vegan (after I explained to them what "vegan" meant). Mind you I wasn't advertising the fact, but after asking if the breading on the fried mushrooms has egg in it, people start asking questions. They all felt they had to justify their meat consumption to me for some reason. Didn't happen while living in Seattle though. In Japan people were surprised but not so much, probably because that's the sort of thing to be expected of a gaijin. But I could never figure out why some people got upset, beyond that maybe it threatened their value systems. So what's the deal? Why do you give a shit?

[kotatsuneko]

isnt veganism a cult founded by the late great Douglas Adams?

[Socratesabroad]

What's the reason for hating someone because they have a different diet than you do?

Because unfortunately some people and organizations have attached moral or philosophical value to their diet while lambasting the diets of others.



Now if you'll forgive me, I have to get back to my steak...

[devicenull]

why am i against vegans... well, things like PETA and ALF seem to hold some sway in this view of mine. that, and most of them are hippocrates that I have ever met. Hellbent on trying to convince others that they are evil and wrong for eating meat. The vegan group on campus deemed that Tyson chicken was evil and through misinformation got a petition to stop the campus from using tyson products in the cafeteria... then they submitted an "alternative" vendor of chicken products that they claimed would be better... some no name thing that no one had ever heard of. Guess what? the result was the chicken tasted horrible and doubled the prices of the formerly good and cheap chicken-based foods. Their campaign for this year is apparently to force the school to have a "healthy restaurant" in the cafeteria, oddly, it is vegan.. this is a group of approximately 50 students forcing their values on a student population of about 15,000. To top it off, animal products are in EVERYTHING. everything from chewing gum to building materials to that nice little coating on ALL pills (taking a calcium supplement to counter not eating animals? the coating and binding agent is animal-based). some people are just so out of it in terms of reality and have lived perfect little sheltered lives that they see stupid things like this as evil.

it's really simple as far as im concerned, you want to avoid eating animals? that's your perogative, i just dont want to hear about it or have you dictate the way i eat. same mentality on the gay issue.

this is not directed at the poster of the thread or anyone in it... just in general. :P

[kotatsuneko]

I have a habit of looking at the ingredients of any new product I buy, on seeing that pop tarts contained cow fat or something they definately went back on the shelf..

thing about meat is, its so hard to get really good clean fresh meat, the meat in Tokyo *smelt* whereas up in Sapporo the meat (and all the other food) was a LOT fresher..

[Caustic Saint]

I have a habit of looking at the ingredients of any new product I buy, on seeing that pop tarts contained cow fat or something they definately went back on the shelf..

And now you know why they taste so damned good!

[Faded]

I didn't claw my way up the food chain to eat vegetables.

[String]

Okay, I see the problem then. There are a lot of vegans who are outspoken and trying to convince other people to be just like them, but there are many more who just do their own thing and keep a low profile, like I did. That's why I was surprised at DN's posts. Maybe only peta vegans should die? Come to think of it, maybe those bastages are the reason why people get scared when they find out I'm vegetarian.

P.S. DN, just to correct a couple things from your post, most chewing gum has no animal ingredients, and there are pill capsules not made from gelatin. It's entirely impossible to cut out all animal products unless you leave society altogether, but you can do away with a lot.

[same]

I think it's fair enough to have a go at the militant "how dare you eat meat" brigade. As String says, not all vegetarians/vegans are like that. And there are different reasons people become vegetarian. I know some people really don't care what happened to the original owner of their steak, but surely it's not unreasonable to ask for animals to be treated with less cruelty?

Whales are Nazis!

[Charles]

I've had more than my share of runins with vegans. I remember once I was out in back of my workplace smoking, when a rusty old diesel delivery truck rolls past, the driver stops and starts giving me shit. He said, "nice leather shoes, how many cows died for those shoes?" I replied "oh, not even one, I should think. And nice DIESEL truck, asshole, how many people die from breathing diesel exhaust?"

Anyway, as a buddhist, I like to freak out vegans with buddhist doctrine. Life feeds on death. Even a vegan has to live off dead plants. I don't see much difference between raising and harvesting rice plants or raising and slaughtering cattle, in either case you are living off other creatures. That's just how the human animal works.
But my favorite buddhist doctrine for vegans:: animals can't attain buddhahood in their animal form. They have to be reborn in a higher life state, as a human, before they are able to attain enlightenment. Poor insentient plants and animals have no intelligence capable of making decisions that gain good karma and a better reincarnation. A plant or animal's only hope of advancement in the next life is to give their lives to sustain a buddha, a human being who can attain enlightenment. A plant or animal's highest spiritual calling is to be eaten... by ME.

[same]

You're both as bad as each other!

Whales are Nazis!

[String]

I've had more than my share of runins with vegans. I remember once I was out in back of my workplace smoking, when a rusty old diesel delivery truck rolls past, the driver stops and starts giving me shit. He said, "nice leather shoes, how many cows died for those shoes?" I replied "oh, not even one, I should think. And nice DIESEL truck, asshole, how many people die from breathing diesel exhaust?"

Anyway, as a buddhist, I like to freak out vegans with buddhist doctrine. Life feeds on death. Even a vegan has to live off dead plants. I don't see much difference between raising and harvesting rice plants or raising and slaughtering cattle, in either case you are living off other creatures. That's just how the human animal works.
But my favorite buddhist doctrine for vegans:: animals can't attain buddhahood in their animal form. They have to be reborn in a higher life state, as a human, before they are able to attain enlightenment. Poor insentient plants and animals have no intelligence capable of making decisions that gain good karma and a better reincarnation. A plant or animal's only hope of advancement in the next life is to give their lives to sustain a buddha, a human being who can attain enlightenment. A plant or animal's highest spiritual calling is to be eaten... by ME.

That guy's an idiot on so many levels. Sounds like he was having a shitty day.

The argument you've presented highlights the difficulty involved with debating this issue. Your argument is fine for a simple person who just thinks killing animals is wrong, but most of the time it's not so simple. For example I think it's fine for people to eat meat and would enjoy doing so once again myself, but because of the current state of the industry, I pass on it.

Oh, and great job using your religion as an instrument of your anger and frustration. You're on the path to enlightenment.

[kamome]

I think one valid objection to eating meat stems from the inhumane treatment of livestock and poultry at slaughterhouses. For example, the cruel methods of slaughtering animals has been well documented. I don't think vegans or vegetarians are being sanctimonious when they protest against these practices or refuse to eat meat because of such practices.

I think DN is engaging in massive stereotyping here without acknowledging the full breadth of views within the animal rights community.

[Socratesabroad]

inhumane treatment of livestock and poultry
cruel methods of slaughtering animals
animal rights community

See, phrasing like that above is what immediately puts the middle-of-the-roaders like myself staunchly on the defense against the vegan/vegetarian camp.

Morally tinged statements bother me in any form, whether they emanate from the left (in this instance) or the right (vis-a-vis abortion or homosexuality). As someone who values privacy and freedom of action within reason, I both despise and fear the emergence of any minority with morally-based beliefs attempting to force those values onto me. A hallmark of any such attempts, be they progressive or reactionary, is re-labelling of the terms of debate. Using doublespeak to redefine a pet as an 'animal companion' is just such an example.

If a person wishes to consume a vegetarian diet, so be it. But when he or she begins to make moral pronouncements on those who do not do the same, then I begin to object.

Perhaps I'm more in the classical school, but I ascribe no rights whatsoever to animals. Does this mean I advocate torturing small critters or wantonly exterminating species? Of course not. From a biological and ecological perspective, I realize that ensuring animal welfare is vital. Arbitrarily ascribing rights to those animals, though, is a whole other kettle of fish, if you will...

[devicenull]

I think one valid objection to eating meat stems from the inhumane treatment of livestock and poultry at slaughterhouses. For example, the cruel methods of slaughtering animals has been well documented. I don't think vegans or vegetarians are being sanctimonious when they protest against these practices or refuse to eat meat because of such practices.

I think DN is engaging in massive stereotyping here without acknowledging the full breadth of views within the animal rights community.

someone needs to watch a certain Penn and Teller episode....

chickens are dumb and are food. flesh is food. PETA is so full of shit and so are most of the organizations like it. if you have gotten to a point where the only evil in the world you can identiify with is food being processed, you really are sheltered. just because you cannot come to truth with how meat goes from running around to a nice t-bone, doesnt mean that the majority cant can to terms with it and eat it anyways.

[cstaylor]

if you have gotten to a point where the only evil in the world you can identiify with is food being processed, you really are sheltered.

Exactly. I mean, what is a hamburger compared to atrocities like the Cultural Revolution?

[same]

If some vegetarian hassles you while you're eating meat it's fair enough to tell them to fuck off. Just as it's fair enough to tell door knocking JWs to fuck off. If someone at your table happens to be vegetarian, there's no need to make a big deal out of it. If someone in your group happens to be Christian, chanting "God is Dead!" would just be childish. Going as far as bumper stickers even sounds defensive. Sounds like a lot of people had a lot of run ins with a lot of militants, and are still reacting. As I said, tell 'em to fuck off!

It's great that we don't have to accept the received wisdom of our society and campaign against things like vivisection, factory farming etc. Changing things for the better should be seen as a sign of progress. Denying all animals any kind of rights would go against most people's moral grain. Just about everyone in the world has some affection for some animal though it varies from country to country. Hard for some people to imagine beating a dog to death so it tastes better. If there are ways to improve conditions for animals in our care, it's not outrageous to suggest them. Of course there are more pressing issues, as cst pointed out, but there always are more pressing issues. Don't just give aid to the most desperate country in the world, spread the love around a little. We animals need all the help we can get.

Socs I'm interested as to why animal rights is from the "left". Is that a Peter Singer thing?

Whales are Nazis!

[Socratesabroad]

Socs I'm interested as to why animal rights is from the "left". Is that a Peter Singer thing?

I've tried to avoid framing the issue as simply conservative vs. liberal or left vs. right, but in answer to your question, the argument for extending human rights to animals is, by definition, a more liberal interpretation of the concept of rights. Because rights are a de facto human concept, even animal rights' proponents agree with the root logic by arguing that such rights should be broadened to include animals.

A second more liberal interpretation of rights in animal rights philosophy stems from identifying the human species as simply another species in nature, one which according to proponents does not nor should not have the right to use or control other species (i.e., animals).

His book, Animal Liberation, argues that humans grant moral consideration to other humans not on the basis of intelligence (in the instance of children, or the mentally disabled), on ability to moralize (criminals and the insane), or on any other attribute that is inherently human, but rather on their ability to experience suffering. As animals also experience suffering, he argues, excluding animals from such consideration is a form of discrimination known as 'speciesism'...

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Animal_rights

At least in the US, animals rights groups fall on the left of the political spectrum (details from an animal activist http://www.all-creatures.org/aip/nl-20040615-paw.html).

A final reason for identifying animal rights proponents as liberal would be their support of 'direct action' (http://www.vegsandiego.com/rod-coronado-flyer.php) which to the classical liberal like in me sounds like doublespeak for 'morally prompted vigilanteeism'

PETA is a wolf fighting to protect a lamb. Alex Pacheco, the founder and former chairman of PETA, has told the press that ""arson, property destruction, burglary and theft are 'acceptable crimes' when used for the animal cause.""

http://www.nyunews.com/opinion/columnists/3166.html

[AssKissinger]

This whole thread is based on a big mistake. Sashimi if for vagetarians.

[devicenull]

if you have gotten to a point where the only evil in the world you can identiify with is food being processed, you really are sheltered.

Exactly. I mean, what is a hamburger compared to atrocities like the Cultural Revolution?

PETA = Red Guard

[String]

if you have gotten to a point where the only evil in the world you can identiify with is food being processed, you really are sheltered.

Exactly. I mean, what is a hamburger compared to atrocities like the Cultural Revolution?

I don't know. What is a hubcap compared to a baseball?