Bathhouse Discrimination Case in Hokkaido

[Andocrates]

Well I don't want to get in a pissing contest with you since it's pretty obvious you are not interested in any sort of meaningful debate.

But if a russian appeared at my establishment, who wasn't drunk and looked like he had a job and was generally trying to get by in life like the rest of us I would be a pretty petty person to refuse him service based on my experiences with his drunk countryman.

Because one drunk russian showed up at my place I ban the entire people group? How does that reasoning work?

You're a biggot, but at least you don't try to hide it. What worse then that, though, is if you're American you're more of an Uncle Tom then an everyday Mississippi biggot.

[devicenull]

The hubbub is that in 2002 they should not bar you from entering an establishment because of your race. No way the settlement even paid half his lawyer bills. Some people act out of (fairly) pure motives.

It would be the same if McDonalds hung a sign in their store "no blacks allowed. "

so what? I believe that businesses have a right to choose who they will and will not do business with. simple as that.

[GomiGirl]

I have thought that the millitant way Debito goes about things does give other foreigners a bad name - however, I am pleased that someone is doing it as this is an issue which has been festering away and needs to be addressed. I was refused apartments as I was not Japanese. The fact that I could speak Japanese wasn't even an issue..

Debito is not doing it just for himself.. (but I am sure that he likes the attention) what he is concerned about in this case is that he has one child who looks more caucasian than the other who looks more Japanese and that his children will not get equal opportunities as they grow up based on their looks. This in itself is a valid motive for action.

If you read the full case, it started when they were allowing only some people of a large combined family group into the onsen and rejecting others. This was done in front of children who hadn't really seen racism in action before. They had let a Chinese lady into the sento, but when she informed the owners of her ethnicity, they kicked her out too. They let one child in but not her sibling... wives but not husbands.

Then when Debito showed up with his Japanese Passport, they still refused him based on his looks. This then started off the whole court case and coverage in the media. (The media were invited to witness the second attempt with the passport... )

So he is a bit of a whinger and a show pony but forcing towns to stop local business' racist policies is a good thing.

[American Oyaji]

1. My life in Japan was more off the base than on. (Get your facts straight)
2. Sometimes, non-violent protest works more than a court order.
3. This isnt about some whiny gaijin. It's about equality for those who consider Japan their home. My children are Japanese citizens by birth and because they have brown skin they should be excluded entry to places other Japanese citizens can go into? God forbid.

The point is about equality and fairness. It's a basic human tenet. If there are some Russians causing problems. You address THAT issue. To bar entry to a whole group of people because they "look different" is idiotic.

I have seen signs in places that say no foreigners. I ignore these signs. I walk right in, sit down and I have never had a problem.
1. I speak Japanese.
2. My manner is Japanese.
3. I am non-threatening, even though I am 6'10" 270lbs.

If this had just happened to him, I doubt it would have caused a stir. But it separated his 2 children because one looked "more Japanese" than the other.

And Gai, for someone who is obviously educated and intelligent, you need not be an ass. I believe you could make your point in a much less abrasive manner. And if you are going to post as much as you do, why don't you become a member. If you disagree so strongly, help us understand why you think the way you do. Don't just take the piss.

[American Oyaji]

The fight isnt over though. The local government did nothing to act on any complaints. Until the government itself is held accountable, then it is a hollow victory.

Basically the judge said, individuals may not discriminate, but the government reserves the right to.

[GuyJean]

..So everybody lets get lawyers on contingencies and become litigious. heheh

I think Gaisa.. might want a word with you.. No, make that 1,000 words:

I don't think he'll like the word 'litigious'.

GJ

[kamome]

Good news for all of us looking for a little extra cash! The doors are open to a flood of related suits using the precedent set out in this case.
Just imagine the potential. Arrive with a three year visa spend the first year clocking the racial abuses of little shops out and about, two years to bring them to trial, cash the cheques and return home. hmm better than teaching english eh?

SHOCKINGLY the japanese text of the constitution does not explicity refute discrimination based on race. THIS MUST CHANGE if Japan has any thoughts about actually joining this century. So everybody lets get lawyers on contingencies and become litigious. heheh

Actually, the paltry sum awarded to Debito wouldn't pay for his legal fees, so there is no "payday" when it comes to suing in Japan. The concept of punitive damages doesn't seem to exist here.

Better stick to your English teaching job, dude.

[robberjak]

You might like to know that the email campaign that got underway when this whole situation started got pretty nasty. Some of them were really vicious and personal and attacked people in the city office and other related organisations who weren't in any kind of situation to do anything about it. FYI, a lot of the emails came from outside of Japan.

Oh, and by the way, you might also like to know that for the three or so years I have been living here, me and my non-Japanese looking (but koseki registered) family have had no problem with any of the other onsens and sentos admitting us or our non-Japanese friends. Most of them do it with a smile as well. Yunohana has a problem - well, it's just as easy not to go there and choose somewhere else.

Dunno about you guys, but the more someone is in my face and belligerently telling me I am wrong, the more likely I am to dig my toes in and give it straight back. Yunohana was wrong, no question about it, but I also believe that Aldwinckle and his buddies didn't handle the situation in the best way either.

Quite frankly, I am happy to fight my own battles. I don't want or need an outsider coming into my city, stirring up shit and putting a lot of locals off-side with the non-Japanese community. (Actually, I'm not even sure if the local non-Japanese were even approached by Aldwinckle et al, regarding the 'No Gaikokujin policy'). I wouldn't want to use an onsen or sento that had drunk, noisy and disruptive customers, no matter who the hell they are. It was bad bloody luck for *us* that it happened to be drunk Russian seamen. Unfortunately the shit had already hit the fan when we arrived and we weren't in a position to be able to do much about it - the damage from both sides had already been done.

Yes I agree there is a lot of misinformation and ignorance about non-Japanese in this country (and those of us who are technically Japanese, but just don't happen to look or sound it), and its regularly stirred up by an appalling Fourth Estate, but my own experience tells me that you get the long term desired results by education and patience, not fist-waving and table thumping, and *ugh*lawsuits.

[robberjak]

SHOCKINGLY the japanese text of the constitution does not explicity refute discrimination based on race. THIS MUST CHANGE if Japan has any thoughts about actually joining this century.

A quick question: who (or what country) wrote the Japanese constitution?

[GuyJean]

who (or what country) wrote the Japanese constitution?

Let's not forget WHEN it was written..

GJ

[Crispy]

Hm, I didn't consider this to be any kind of issue. This is Japan, and if you aren't Japanese, you should just accept discrimination, while at the same time knowing that your foreign language ability and a few other properties are in great demand. Trying to change Japan in that way is just futile, I have only been here three months and I already know that.

[cstaylor]

::cough:: Let's make a few choice changes to Crispy's statement:

Hm, I didn't consider this to be any kind of issue. This is Arkansas, and if you aren't White, you should just accept discrimination, while at the same time knowing that your dancing and singing skills are in great demand. Trying to change Arkansas in that way is just futile, I have only been here three months and I already know that.

Culture isn't an inviolable law of physics, it's something you learn. I don't want to put too many words into your mouth, but consider the undercurrent to what you're saying: Japanese are incapable of changing how they interact with others, like a child who refuses to admit their mistakes. I don't believe that, and I think that these changes will happen sometime in the future.

[kamome]

::cough:: Let's make a few choice changes to Crispy's statement:

Hm, I didn't consider this to be any kind of issue. This is Arkansas, and if you aren't White, you should just accept discrimination, while at the same time knowing that your dancing and singing skills are in great demand. Trying to change Arkansas in that way is just futile, I have only been here three months and I already know that.

Culture isn't an inviolable law of physics, it's something you learn. I don't want to put too many words into your mouth, but consider the undercurrent to what you're saying: Japanese are incapable of changing how they interact with others, like a child who refuses to admit their mistakes. I don't believe that, and I think that these changes will happen sometime in the future.

Well put, CS.

[cstaylor]

I was referring to Crispy's post, not the Debito case in Hokkaido. Of course the situations are different: most foreigners in Japan aren't slaves, or have laws that forbid their association with Japanese-looking people.

You didn't refute my point about the attitude some foreigners take on Japan's racism: that's it's immutable. If the same attitude was applied to the racism of their own country (like America), it would be silly to say, "hey, that's Arkansas, what did you expect?"

[Crispy]

I see what you are saying, and I do believe that Japan will change, but I don't expect it to happen anytime soon, I am not going to waste my energy trying to get it to change, and I sure as hell am not going to figure it changing into my life and career plans.

Oh, and all those things I said apply to non-whites in Arkansas as well. Hey, it's Arkansas, what do you expect? My parents grew up in Oklahoma, most of my extended family lives in Tennessee and I know how it really is down there.

EDIT: I do plan to stay here for at least a little while longer, I just sent out my JET application yesterday, though most likely I will be working for someone else.

On the scale with fanatical idealist on one side and bitter realist on the other, I am pretty damned close to the realist side.