Selfish bastards

[gomichild]

It's actually snowing down in Shonen and I just got off the train and waited in line for a taxi because I was out debriefing (read drinking) with a cool Japanese lady...what astounds me is that none of the bastards in front of me in the taxi line offered me the chance to get a taxi first - I was the last one left at a deserted station in the pelting snow waiting!

Chivalry is dead.

[GomiGirl]

Bastards.. I hope their wives peed in the bathwater that is waiting for them.

snowing here too.

[Charles]

Chivalry is dead.

Equal Rights is a two-edged sword.

[aquamarine]

This is the first, and possibly last time I'll agree with charles. Someone mind quoting me so it doesn't appen again?

[Mels]

J men are notorious for expecting the woman to open doors or offering a cab. My aunts, for many years, would tell me that J men have no concept (not all) of being polite....that leads me into the equal rights comment.

Being polite to open someones door isnt chivary...I do it all the time and people do it for me. It is being polite. To me, it is only an excuse to say 'equal rights' about a situation like this. Lame excuse to throw being polite out the fucking window.

If I was waiting for a cab and it was raining..but I saw a woman with small children, I would offer the cab to her...and I have. Why? because for me it isnt about being a hero, it is about thinking about that other person, regardless if they are strangers.

Maybe men do not understand this, but there are differences. Equal rights is about being treated fairly. It doesnt only pretain to women, but all minorities.

When a woman is alone (even strong confident women) on the street, most times the first thing she will be thinking is her saftey.....remember women are more prone to rape then men. Sure men might get their ass kicked, but we as women typically have a certain instinct to be more aware of our surroundings because there are creeps who do prey on women and children.

Most men, if they do see there is a woman alone, would offer the cab...
There are men, who do open the door for a woman...I open the door for a man. That to me is equal rights.

It does grate on me when a jerk says...oh well equal rights is a double edged sword.....when it pretains to these types of scenerios......maybe in a different scenerio it may fit. Such as....if a woman went for a mans job that is physically chanllenging. She is expected to do her job, but if she cant. well she shouldnt get any special treatment.

*can of worms opened*

[Charles]

There are men, who do open the door for a woman...I open the door for a man. That to me is equal rights.

It does grate on me when a jerk says...oh well equal rights is a double edged sword.....when it pretains to these types of scenerios......

Apparently you didn't read the scenario. This isn't about holding doors open. I hold doors open for everyone. This is about someone who expects to cut in line at the taxi stand because they are a woman.

[Mels]

It does grate on me when a jerk says...oh well equal rights is a double edged sword.....when it pretains to these types of scenerios......

You apparently didn't read the scenario. This isn't about holding doors open. I hold doors open for everyone. This is about someone who expects to cut in line at the taxi stand because they are a woman.

I read it...but my percetion is different. It was late at night. Most men would offer the cab.
I can understand this topic came up because the word cilvary was used.

I did not think she was wanting to cut in line.

[GomiGirl]

There are men, who do open the door for a woman...I open the door for a man. That to me is equal rights.

It does grate on me when a jerk says...oh well equal rights is a double edged sword.....when it pretains to these types of scenerios......

Apparently you didn't read the scenario. This isn't about holding doors open. I hold doors open for everyone. This is about someone who expects to cut in line at the taxi stand because they are a woman.

At a deserted station in the middle of nowhere after 1am in the morning after the last train had departed, in the snow......

Sorry - fair call IMHO.

[Charles]

..At a deserted station in the middle of nowhere after 1am in the morning after the last train had departed, in the snow......

It doesn't sound to me like she was unable to get a taxi at all, she was just irritated to have to wait in line like everyone else instead of cutting in to the front of the line. But we will have to await clarification.

[EKen9]

I agree, sounds like equal opportunity to me. Maybe if she had kids it would have been a different story but expecting to get ahead of the line just because it is snowing at a deserted station and you are a woman, how is it any different for the men?

[FG Lurker]

My thoughts...

At work I treat everyone the same.

People who can do their jobs are respected. I do my job, they do theirs, things get done, company does well. No problem.

People who can't do their jobs are avoided when possible and closely monitored when they can't be avoided. I wish everyone was competent but unfortunately some are not.

Outside of work in a "normal" situation I also generally treat everyone the same: I hold doors for people when I can, try not to cut into lines... Normal human behavior in my book. (I'm a bit of an asshole when driving sometimes though... I don't cut people off, but I don't always let people in either! )

But in a situation like Gomichild described, if I had been standing in front of her in line I would have given her the last cab, not left her standing in a deserted taxi stand at night. (If I'd been 4 or 5 people in front of her though I probably wouldn't have had the mental capacity while drunk at 1am to figure out there weren't enough taxis to go around! )

It's not about equality. It's common sense about safety and the reality of the world.

[Caustic Saint]

Chivalry is dead.

Yes, it is.

Just remember - women killed it.

[Oradea]

I gotta go with charles.
It seems pretty clear she expected to be offered a cab and cut the line on the simple basis that she is a woman.

If she was waiting in the ATM queue and it was raining, would you let her ahead because she was a woman?(Theoretically, before you start telling me the ATM's are indoors)

It's not about equal rights, it's about positive discrimination, wanting, even expecting to be able to skip others because of your sex.

Chivalry is dead yes, but so are the dinosaurs, we will get by just fine.

[FG Lurker]

When the world (especially at night) is as safe for women and children as it is for men then I will agree.

I don't think anyone can yet claim that is the case. It doesn't seem likely anytime soon either. [Edit: And after all, who is making it less safe for women? It sure as hell ain't women who are...]

Common sense guys. Sadly not always so common.

[kuri]

It seems pretty clear she expected to be offered a cab and cut the line on the simple basis that she is a woman.

Yes, she probably did. But I doubt it was because she felt uncomfortable with the weather, but because it's just a little bit scary to be a woman alone late at night--even for tough, fearless chicks like GC in a relatively safe country like Japan.

I'm not afraid of the dark nor of being out late alone. I carry myself confidently through city streets and seedy districts (in Japan and elsewhere) and rarely have problems. But even so, I heave a small sigh of relief when entering a cab after last train. Maybe it's just "shadows on the wall" but night feels more sinister than day.

So although it may be selfish of GC to want one of the men ahead of her in the queue to surrender his cab, I can understand where she is coming from. I would wish the same thing...just because I am a woman.

[NeoNecroNomiCron]

Gomi, Mels, would you offer the cab to just any other guy waiting in line? Who knows what their circumstance are. Everybody knows I am a pretty tall guy, but standing in a queue is excruciating for me, sometimes I would kill for a chair. Especialy in Japan because there are no public chairs. Maybe starbucks paid off the local governments so the only place to sit is in a coffee shop.

Remember too that this is Japan. There are no issues really regarding rape. If you were so afraid of it then you should think about going home earlier. THe ammount of school girls you will see wondering around all hours in Japan is astonishing.

Beside too, you also have the situation with old people in japan and if you should offer a seat for them. Some get offended that you think they are old. Orther just refuse, even others will accept out of embarrasment and change cars in the next stop.

Dont apply western moral to the east.

[jjaappaa]

Tough topic. If I as a man were there it would depend on the case as to whether or not I let a woman have the last cab. But GC seems quite pissed off at the snow and the cold. What if the 5 in front of her were all women, and they were all younger then her. Would she expect them to allow her to take a cab because she was older or whatever? Or what if no one else was there and she still had to wait by herself in the snow? She wouldn't have started a thread "Selfish Bastards". Maybe it would have been called "Fucking Snow". I know this is just hyperthetical but saying chivalry is dead seems a little strong to me. Just read some of the posts by some of the posters on FG and you will see that it is not.IMHO

[gomichild]

It wasn't so much the snow. It was being left in a deserted station in the middle of nowhere by myself late at night.

Had there been a young woman in line either in front or back of the line I would have offered to share a cab with her.

Because there was nothing at this station. Not even a conbini. Not near a main road either but set back in a back street almost.

And I'm not naive enough to believe that rubbish about Japan being completely safe - you still have to be careful.

The man in front of me wished me luck when he got in his cab - gee thanks mate yes lets hope no freaky people kidnap me while I'm waiting all alone here.

I now know in the future when I work late in Tokyo to not get off at that station but the one before (I live in between them).

And perhaps it's not so much the man/woman issue that's upsetting - it's more that loss of community - even here in Shonan. People being considerate and helping others out. Do you watch as a mother struggles up a flight of stairs with a pram and all her baggage? Do you stand up for the old man on the train? Do you just step over the person who has fallen in the street?

Which is nothing to do with western morals - my Japanese mother-in-law comments on this a lot - hell they have whole segments dedicated to these issues on Japanese telly.

It's the lack of consideration and support for others in your community that upsets me. How would these men have felt if it were their wives or daughters that had been left alone at this station?

[NeoNecroNomiCron]

And perhaps it's not so much the man/woman issue that's upsetting - it's more that loss of community - even here in Shonan.

Well you will find that in all major cities. I know shonan isnt one of them but Japan is like one big city. Even in the country side you can at least see other houses.

Do you watch as a mother struggles up a flight of stairs with a pram and all her baggage?

No, but what I wont do is let at 5yo child sit instead of me. That is when I apply western morals to Japan. Where adults sit and chlidren stand. But Japanese do prioritize things differently. Men are given more respect like this because it is a salary man driven culture.

Do you stand up for the old man on the train?

Not always, a few times this has happened]Do you just step over the person who has fallen in the street?[/quote]Yes! I just cant handle thoes situations, I get in a big internal panic. Warning never ask me for taht kind of help. If there is any blood I will faint. Before I was minding my cousins, one of them aobut 6 got a nose bleed. I knew if i looked at it I would faint. So i had to hold a tissue to his nose with out looking at his face and carry him home in the most awkward way. I am compleatly happles in any kind of need help situation.

How would these men have felt if it were their wives or daughters that had been left alone at this station?

They probably would expect to be offered the taxi as they are the breadwinners.

[kamome]

Could it be that this isn't an equal rights issue at all? The Japanese are notorious about not helping people who aren't part of their "in group". It's like if they don't know a person, then that person is not part of their consciousness. And on top of that, if you're a gaijin, you're definitely not part of the "in group" and will just be ignored because they don't feel comfortable being around you. So good luck hoping for chivalry from a Japanese person you don't know...

[Mels]

When the world (especially at night) is as safe for women and children as it is for men then I will agree.

I don't think anyone can yet claim that is the case. It doesn't seem likely anytime soon either. [Edit: And after all, who is making it less safe for women? It sure as hell ain't women who are...]

Common sense guys. Sadly not always so common.

Thank you. That is what I believe. I am a self confident, strong woman....but there are times when I work late, even in Japan, that I feel a bit uncomfortable. There is always some part of my mind thinking of my saftey...in one way or another. I have had Japanese guys aggressively approach me many times, one even stalking me....so even though I know I should try to get home at a decent hour, it doesnt always go my way.

[Maths Dude]

I'll just say this. I would have given you the last cab no problem. But who are we to comment on how the Japanese go about their lives. I'm getting sick of people complaining about this or that in Japan. If you don't like it, go home! I doubt if the Japanese will miss you, and you will probably get the last cab. Sounds like a win win to me haha!

[vir-jin]

I'll just say this. I would have given you the last cab no problem. But who are we to comment on how the Japanese go about their lives. I'm getting sick of people complaining about this or that in Japan. If you don't like it, go home! I doubt if the Japanese will miss you, and you will probably get the last cab. Sounds like a win win to me haha!

why? I'd complain about it in my country, I'd complain about it anywhere. adapting to a country doesn't mean that I have to think everything is just GORGEOUS! I met many Japanese that are actually happy to hear about other ways. Japanese are open for everything new. They'd never blame me for my opinion.

[FG Lurker]

I'll just say this. I would have given you the last cab no problem. But who are we to comment on how the Japanese go about their lives. I'm getting sick of people complaining about this or that in Japan. If you don't like it, go home! I doubt if the Japanese will miss you, and you will probably get the last cab. Sounds like a win win to me haha!

Come back and talk to me after you've lived here 10 years or more.

I enjoy my life in Japan and do not have desire to leave at this time. However like any country Japan is not perfect.

To use your own words, I'm getting sick of you bitching about this when you have so little time in-country.

[Maths Dude]

I think 5 years straight in Japan and having J-in-laws more than qualifies me to make comments. Get your facts straight before you accuse others of lacking experince.

[Charles]

...I met many Japanese that are actually happy to hear about other ways. Japanese are open for everything new...

Oh, they're always glad to hear about other ways, as long as it has nothing to do with them, which means they don't have to do anything about it.

[vir-jin]

[FG Lurker]

I think 5 years straight in Japan and having J-in-laws more than qualifies me to make comments. Get your facts straight before you accuse others of lacking experince.

You are obviously lacking experience though. Give it time and you'll see.

[Caustic Saint]

Do you watch as a mother struggles up a flight of stairs with a pram and all her baggage?

Yes. Having children was her choice. Don't wanna do the work? Don't have kids.

Do you stand up for the old man on the train?

No. I'm not sitting in the senior seats, so he can go bug the people who are.

Do you just step over the person who has fallen in the street?

Depends - did they fall in a really funny way?

[FG Lurker]

Do you watch as a mother struggles up a flight of stairs with a pram and all her baggage?

Yes. Having children was her choice. Don't wanna do the work? Don't have kids.

Do you stand up for the old man on the train?

No. I'm not sitting in the senior seats, so he can go bug the people who are.

Do you just step over the person who has fallen in the street?

Depends - did they fall in a really funny way?