shafted by NEC

[Hana_Mizu]

At the weekend my wife purchased a NEC LaVie LL350 against my advice and wishes. I noticed that it only has 30Gb of HD space instead of 40Gb and Windows XP CD is not included!! Is this normal for laptops/notebooks purchased in Japan?
BTW, as BIOS sees the HD as a 40Gb drive, I installed Partition Magic and found a hidden partition of 8.5Gb called NEC_RESTORE. This hidden partition holds the OS install files, hence, no Windows CD. I guess no one is supposed to know about this!
I was thinking about writing to NEC to complain about the lack of Windows CD and HD space before my "discovery", but should I tell them of my "discovery" too?

[Charles]

I think I see the source of the problem. You should return your wife and exchange her for a different model.

[Hana_Mizu]

I think you may be on to something there

[Socratesabroad]

I noticed that it only has 30Gb of HD space instead of 40Gb and Windows XP CD is not included!! Is this normal for laptops/notebooks purchased in Japan?

No, this appears to be the 'way of the industry' worldwide (or at least here in Asia). Over the last year here in China, I have purchased two IBM Thinkpads, one as a gift for a friend and the other for my programming tutor to use. Both are exactly as you mentioned - semi-hidden partition (I used Partition Expert instead of Magic but I know what you mean) with Restore files and no XP CD.

One of the first things I did after buying one was try to swap the hard drive for a bigger 60 GB one - no dice. Despite copying the drive contents exactly I couldn't get XP to work without Activation. Problem is, the laptop would recognize my router to activate over the net and both the domestic and int'l phone numbers listed for Microsoft didn't work thus negating activation by phone.

The funny thing is....CDs to reinstall the hidden stuff do exist. When I bought my own IBM Thinkpad in Japan a couple of years ago, I ordered the same model as the one I gave as a gift - but with Windows 2000 pre-installed - and for 4000-5000 yen extra I bought the system restore CDs (3 of 'em) from IBM Japan.

So I'm left to conclude
1) XP is a royal pain in the arse (even if it's a legit version)
2) rule 1) applies doubly so in China where tech and customer support is still in its infancy

I had to special order my Win 2K Thinkpad - and now I'm very glad I did.

[Hana_Mizu]

The wife seems fine with it all, but I feel more than a little cheated... almost 10Gb less disk. Having OS/recovery files on the HD is fine in the case that Windows fails, but if the HD becomes corrupt there's no CD to install the OS on a new HD

[mr. sparkle]

Man, I outgrew my 40GB drive. I just installed a Seagate Momentus 100GB 5400rpm in my TiBook. So far, so good. I assume that this would be a good one for a PC as well. 1 GB or RAM and I'm sailin' now.

[Crambo]

Should I be able to fit one of those 100GB Seagate drives in this iBook (G4, 12")?

[Hana_Mizu]

well 40Gb (30Gb) and 512Mb of RAM (I added an extra stick of 256Mb) should be more than enough for what she'll be using it for.... M$ Office apps and Sim City.

[FG Lurker]

At the weekend my wife purchased a NEC LaVie LL350 against my advice and wishes. I noticed that it only has 30Gb of HD space instead of 40Gb and Windows XP CD is not included!! Is this normal for laptops/notebooks purchased in Japan?

At Microsoft's insistence this is normal now for basically all large hardware venders -- be it NEC, IBM, Toshiba, or Dell. If you *do* get an XP CD it will only work on the brand of machine you got it with. Dell does this sometimes.

Some companies (IBM, Toshiba, NEC, others too I am sure) don't give recovery CDs with many/most of their systems anymore. Instead as you found out they include the recovery data on the hard drive. I think this is because 95% of reinstall-required problems are user-caused. Spyware/malware or just general fuckups. If the drive dies inside warranty then you have to send it back to get it fixed anyway and they will restore the machine at that time. If it fixed outside of warranty....then you're fucked. You either need to buy the OS, get a copy, or send it to NEC to get it reinstalled. None of these options is very appealing to anyone with computer knowledge, but to non-geeks it doesn't really matter that much -- if it breaks most people (read 90%+) would just send it back to the manufacturer and pay for service anyway, or buy a new one if it is too old.

If you have Partition Magic around then there's a good chance you have GHOST too. Use Ghost to back up the hard drive and make your own recovery CD or DVD. That way you're covered if the machine croaks.

BTW, as BIOS sees the HD as a 40Gb drive, I installed Partition Magic and found a hidden partition of 8.5Gb called NEC_RESTORE. This hidden partition holds the OS install files, hence, no Windows CD. I guess no one is supposed to know about this!
I was thinking about writing to NEC to complain about the lack of Windows CD and HD space before my "discovery", but should I tell them of my "discovery" too?

You don't need to install PM to see it. The Disk Management applet within windows will show it just fine. You can try assigning it a drive letter and maybe you can read the files off it.

I guess the big venders see it as a way to save a few bucks on CDs, and they likely get better licensing terms from MS if they agree to not include any CDs with the machine... But it does suck from the perspective of someone with technical knowledge.

Oh, about the machine... It could have been worse -- she could have bought a Sony. Man their service SUCKS.

[Neo-Rio]

Yeah, that spare partition is used to "restore" Windows when (not if) it dies from viruses, spyware, and the like.
Your wife may think that Windows XP may look cute, it may look cuddly, it also might look like a FischerPrice toy or a slot machine. But under the surface it is very murky indeed.

I'd second the advice to use norton ghost and backup that Hard drive - that way you are OK when (and not if) Win XP dies a death (of many) after you connect it to the net.

Ever since WindowsXP, Microsoft have been real nazis about protecting Windows from piracy, and this annoys even legal users (including me. My PC is stickered and I have a legal copy), because of that stupid activation nonsense and the fact that Windows connected to the net WILL DIE eventually (and not if) and you WILL have to reinstall the thing even when you change hardware (which they are counting on as well).

Your machine will die because internet security on Windows is terribly (deliberately?) poor, even with SP2 and even if you protect it with firewall software and anti virus, nasties such as spyware and Java-based viruses can still slip in (even through Firefox). I've had it happen. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen EVENTUALLY. Then you require a reinstall.
If not that, then you may accidently install some free software which seems legit, but would rather turn your PC into a advertising billboard. Reinstall.
If you are a DIY PC builder, there is the chance that some driver will go bad and destabilize your machine as well, requiring a reinstall.
Then there are hard disk failures, which in your situation, is the one you ought to be worried about the most, because then it's reinstall city.

Want to reinstall your legit copy of XP? Reactivation will tell you that your copy of Windows is dead, then you need to call Microsoft and convince them you're not pirating XP, OR you have to spend more money on software to buy backup tools.
You're "lucky" with the reinstall partition (just don't accidently format it!)

To an expert computer user this is a major pain in the neck, so I cannot imagine how terrible it is for ordinary users.

Microsoft is quite happy to squeeze you for all the money you have to buy extra copies of Windows, and even new computers, to keep their economic wheels oiled, and that of NEC in this case (who Microsoft has threatened to install Windows on their PCs,..... or else).

...and that is why you have no recovery CD.

Now where are FG's Apple Mac zealots?
At least Apple won't royally screw you.

[Hana_Mizu]

I've backed the data on the recovery partition and ghosted the whole HD (all partitions) as is, just in case the drive craps out.

[Neo-Rio]

Wisely done. At the very least you can get a new hard drive of the same size as the original one, restore your ghost, and use it.

I wonder if you can restore this partition onto a larger hard drive and still have the notepad recognize it. I'm not so sure it will work though.

I've never backed up one of these hidden recovery partitions before, but I have experimented with these a little bit.

I once took an old Windows 98 IBM thinkpad laptop before and wiped out the main Windows partition and left the recovery partition alone. Then I installed FreeBSD UNIX onto the place on the drive where the Windows partition once was.
The problem then was that now this laptop wouldn't offer to restore from the recovery partition anymore, despite it still being there, in the correct place.

I'm not sure what caused it to stop offering to recover it. The good news is that I'm not missing Windows 98 one bit.
Maybe the MBR was special, maybe it expected the first partition to be in Windows format. This was an IBM anyway. I don't know how the NEC ones work.

Maybe somebody knows.... Maybe I should hack it some more and force it to boot the hidden partition. Time to break out the Emergency Boot CD. I mean, if these partitions are actually bootable, there should be nothing to stop you burning it to CD and booting it from there.....

[Socratesabroad]

Ever since WindowsXP, Microsoft have been real nazis about protecting Windows from piracy, and this annoys even legal users (including me. My PC is stickered and I have a legal copy), because of that stupid activation nonsense

I couldn't agree more. Having bought 2 laptops now with XP but no disk I can say confidently that I wouldn't buy another. Sure everything works fine - unless you try to install a larger HD, add a component, etc.

If you are a DIY PC builder, there is the chance that some driver will go bad and destabilize your machine as well, requiring a reinstall.

Funny you should mention this. All of my own personal PCs are DIY models I cobbled together. I just upgraded the MB on one but the drivers didn't jibe with Windows on one of my HDs on a RAID card. I ended up having to reinstall Windows completely on the partition in question. Even with Win2K it was a hassle, but I couldn't imagine the anger I'd feel at having to call up Microsoft each time I deleted and then reinstalled Windows until it worked properly (3, maybe 4 times in total).

XP =
No thanks.

[Grumblebum]

XP =
No thanks.

Couldn't agree more - I still use Windows 2000 on my main PC at home, and am quite content with it - does everything I need.

I ran into the restore partition thing back when I bought my IBM s30 some years back. Promptly wiped the entire thing and reinstalled the OS the way I like it - never did like having the OS and data etc sharing one big partition on the hard disk..

Later I did end up ordering the restore CD from IBM though - not having anything to show for the OS which came with the machine bugged me.

[Socratesabroad]

Wisely done. At the very least you can get a new hard drive of the same size as the original one, restore your ghost, and use it.

I wonder if you can restore this partition onto a larger hard drive and still have the notepad recognize it. I'm not so sure it will work though.

Actually, I tried several approaches to mix/match the XP and Restore partitions on HDs from both Thinkpads and that failed. Also copying the entire drive contents of one HD to a larger HD failed as well - I'm not too familiar with XP, but I gather that it's based on the particular HD (perhaps the particular make/model, but I'm just guessing). In all cases, activation was required and, as I've said, activation didn't work over the net or by phone.

If there is a way to avoid activation on a completely legal version of XP on a laptop, I'm all ears...

[FG Lurker]

Windows NT 4.0
Windows 2000 = Windows NT 5.0
Windows XP = Windows NT 5.1

XP has the much hated activation of course, but has better ACPI support along with better multimedia/gaming support. It also has some features that make it better suited for office environments -- built in remote desktop for example. Plus things like bluetooth support and the software firewall.

However XP does not work as well on older hardware as 2K, and the extra eye candy needs to be turned off unless you want your machine needlessly slowed down.

Other than that though XP and 2000 don't differ that much. The base OS was a point revision, not a version jump like 2K was over NT4.

[Andocrates]

On that note BUY XP-PRO it's like an extra $80.00 but it's worth it.

[Neo-Rio]

To be honest though, I really only use Windows for playing games and watching TV from the TV card in the PC (NHK was told that I have no TV, and I didn't lie to them).

If I could get away with ditching Windows altogether I would.

Other than that, I can completely get away with never having to use Windows for anything else. Some of the Linux distributions these days are pretty mature and do all that I'd want as far as work is concerned.