Kamikaze Japanese Study: HELP!

[jim katta]

[kurohinge1]

... Do I:

1)forget Pimsleur and take the live one month class (can't afford both)
2)pick up the Pimsleur Comprehensive set, and forget the class.
3)forget 1 & 2, and just look for better text books to improve my grammar and sentence structure.

... I'm looking for speaking ability right now.

Here's my current thoughts:

I have a few nice text books gathering dust at home but, as I have a life sentence (being married to a Japanese lady), I have kept up the weekly language class. It is now just a conversation class for two hours a week with up to 8 students and a very good Japanese teacher. We have guest Japanese people now and then and head to the pub afterwards with the teacher and some Japanese students (who are learning English). I learn more from these weekly experiences than I think I could from an inanimate text book. So, I'd forget the texts and go to the classes.

Hope this helps.

[FG Lurker]

I agree -- forget the text and go to class. If self-study was going to work for you then you'd be fluent already.

What work are you doing in Japan now? If you're teaching then I suggest looking for other work where you are forced to speak Japanese. That doesn't mean you have to quit the teaching gig, just try to get something part time (restaurant help etc) where you must speak Japanese to get by. The work will suck, the pay will be worse, BUT you WILL learn natural conversational Japanese.

[Pencilslave]

[oyajikun]

Interact with Japanese people. Books will help but you really need to fnid some Japanese friends to practice with.

[gamma-ro]

I've been living in Japan since 2002, and haven't been teaching English... officially. I work in advertising with Japanese clients and Japanese staff. And while I desperately want my Japanese speaking / reading / writing skills to improve, I end up being too busy with projects to ever go to class, and my co-workers always want me to teach them English - since I am one of the only gaijin to which they have constant exposure, and they just assume someone else will help me with my Japanese. Sigh.

Fortunately I start a new job next month, and said that I need to take lessons at least once a week. Sure, I have learned a lot just from exposure, and having Japanese in-laws around quite often, but I can say that the text books don't help all that much if you have a hectic schedule already, so go to class if you can. After all, if you get something wrong or misunderstand something during self-study, a text book can't correct you.

[oyajikun]

I've been living in Japan since 2002, and haven't been teaching English... officially. I work in advertising with Japanese clients and Japanese staff. And while I desperately want my Japanese speaking / reading / writing skills to improve, I end up being too busy with projects to ever go to class, and my co-workers always want me to teach them English - since I am one of the only gaijin to which they have constant exposure, and they just assume someone else will help me with my Japanese. Sigh.

I found that by frequently speaking my bad Japanese at a level that is audible to everyone in the room, my Japanese friends quickly started correcting me and giving me lessons. Don't be shy. Embarrass them into teaching you!

[Pencilslave]

Interact with Japanese people. Books will help but you really need to fnid some Japanese friends to practice with.

There's an idea! It'll be a little bit tough since I live in Pinson Alabama right outside Birmingham, but there's one Japanese grocery store I know of. There are also classes at University of Alabama in Birmingham, and they have general public Japanese classes down at University of Alabama's main campus in Tuscaloosa.

That aside, can anyone suggest any ways to learn the Kanji, and Kana faster? The main reason I want to memorize all the characters as fast as can is because I love manga as much as anime and get tired of waiting for translations. That, and so when I visit Japan, I won't be illiterate and won't have to ask a native to tell me what the signs mean.(Please excuse my geekiness.)

[oyajikun]

Interact with Japanese people. Books will help but you really need to fnid some Japanese friends to practice with.

There's an idea! It'll be a little bit tough since I live in Pinson Alabama right outside Birmingham, but there's one Japanese grocery store I know of. There are also classes at University of Alabama in Birmingham, and they have general public Japanese classes down at University of Alabama's main campus in Tuscaloosa.

That aside, can anyone suggest any ways to learn the Kanji, and Kana faster? The main reason I want to memorize all the characters as fast as can is because I love manga as much as anime and get tired of waiting for translations. That, and so when I visit Japan, I won't be illiterate and won't have to ask a native to tell me what the signs mean.(Please excuse my geekiness.)

Get a PT job at the grocery store!

[tetsujin gaijin]

Kana is relatively easy to learn. You can memorize the characters inside of a month easy. Kanji will take a lot longer and more dillegence. Don't worry about kanji right now, just learn the kana and find yourself textbox that only have kana. The key is to get rid of relying on romaji as quickly as possible. The next thing you need to do is find a Japanese person you can practice with. You can read all the books you want, but unless you practice hearing/speaking the language you'll never be fluent.

[Pencilslave]

Kana is relatively easy to learn. You can memorize the characters inside of a month easy. Kanji will take a lot longer and more dillegence. Don't worry about kanji right now, just learn the kana and find yourself textbox that only have kana. The key is to get rid of relying on romaji as quickly as possible. The next thing you need to do is find a Japanese person you can practice with. You can read all the books you want, but unless you practice hearing/speaking the language you'll never be fluent.

Thanks for the advice Tetsu and Oyaji. I had the Kana tables memorized but I've forgotten them. Time to make up some flash cards and reload the ol' Hiragana and Katakana again. Thanks again guys.

[gamma-ro]

I found that by frequently speaking my bad Japanese at a level that is audible to everyone in the room, my Japanese friends quickly started correcting me and giving me lessons. Don't be shy. Embarrass them into teaching you!

Actually, since I am often of one of the more "senior" people within the staff pool with whom I work daily they have a tendency to not correct me. I have even intentionally said a few things incorrectly from time to time to see if they would correct me, and they usually won't do it unless I specifically ask if I said something improperly. Of course there are some exceptions, and my wife falls within that group, but most of my Japanese friends won't correct me unless they have no idea what I was trying to say.

So as far as being embarrassed is concerned, I have no problems there. I guess it's just a matter of me being more aggressive with the requests for correction. And I suppose once I am taking classes (finally) that it won't be an issue. ^___^

[Charles]

If you have access to a Mac, the fastest way to learn Kana is to use the program Kanalab. It's a MacOS 9 app, but it runs fine in Classic. I know of no equivalent app for windows. Flashcards are good too, there aren't so many kana that you will have trouble with a deck of flashcards. Kana should only take you a week or two to memorize thoroughly. If you use KanaLab, it should take mere days.

If you're going to learn Japanese, casual study is going to lead you nowhere. Pimsleur isn't going to cut it either. You need to get serious and spend continuous, persistent effort in a structured study method, spending significant study time EVERY DAY during the early stages. IMHO the best way to do this is in a classroom with a teacher who is a native speaker of Japanese. Tapes lack feedback, a teacher can listen and interact with you and correct your errors. With tapes, all you do is listen and repeat, you're not really producing Japanese, just copying it. The current philosophy is "four skills," you must learn to read, write, listen, and speak Japanese, all in balance. For example, if you learn to read but not write Japanese, you will be deficient in reading too. You cannot learn Japanese for passive comprehension, you must be able to actively produce Japanese in speaking and writing to develop literacy.

To return to the kana example, I always tell people who use flashcards to speak the kana out loud while reading the cards. That way you are activating more mental channels, you're not just passively viewing the kana, you're speaking them aloud and getting your brain used to producing a sound in association with the visual image. This gets all of your brain working, both passive and active channels.

[kamome]

It's all in the usage of Japanese. Classtime is good, and better than home study, but the more you apply your Japanese in actual situations--with friends, coworkers, teachers--the better you will get. Best is to get into a circle of Japanese friends and socialize with them as much as possible.

To mix it up, I would also buy manga that are printed with the furigana readings. You'll pick up good kanji and spoken Japanese that way. However, you have to ask your close friends if the phrases you learn are appropriate for use in polite company. Some of the manga language is too off-the-wall for normal conversation.

[GomiGirl]

Just a quick question - what are your goals for Japanese? ie why are you wanting to learn it - business, hobby, understanding anime, picking up J-chicks?

Your motivation really will depend on your method of study. You are not based in Japan so your daily access to Japanese can be quite limited so you really need to choose your study method carefully. Those of us who live here can just put our noses out our front doors or turn on the TV for exposure to the language. You have to be a bit more savvy to really get maximum benefit from the resources available to you.

[jim katta]

Thanks for alll the great responses!

Pencilslave,
not to be selfish, but dude please don't hijack the thread. I'm looking for some really specific answers to the questions I posed (that have nothing to do with kana/kanji) that involve how I'm going to spend this money on learning. That said, I think you got some really good advice from the people who already posted. In particular, CHARLES gave some Damn good advice, and even though I know the kana, I still downloaded kanalab from his link and it rocks!

GomiGirl,
I learned a long time ago that I don't need nihongo to pick up Japanese chicks. The reason I want to learn is because I find myself doing more and more business in Tokyo, and I'm seeing that if I could speak at least rudimentary Japanese (not high polite business japanese) for those outings at bars and clubs, I could network better and get more things going. I also plan to set up a home in Tokyo in the near future and I would like to be able to talk to my neighbors (even if I sound like a baby while doing so).

GomiGirl said,

You are not based in Japan so your daily access to Japanese can be quite limited so you really need to choose your study method carefully.

Exactly! That's why I came to ask the FG veterans for some strong advice. I've been slacking so long, but a recent trip to Japan this year gave me the reason I needed to truly commit to learning more than just survival japanese.

BTW, so based on the responses, does this mean most here think that Pimleur is crap? Don't touch it?

[jim katta]

BTW, to the person who PM'd me, BIG THANK YOU, your advice was really really good on both points, THANKS!

[jim katta]

Anecdote: Yesterday I was on the train and a group of Japanese tourists got on the packed subway train. They were talking loud and laughing,and at one point even said to each other, "don't worry, we're speaking japanese, they can't understand." So I totally felt like I was eavesdropping. I only understood about half of what they said, but nevertheless, it was encouraging for me.

[Charles]

Anecdote: Yesterday I was on the train and a group of Japanese tourists got on the packed subway train. They were talking loud and laughing,and at one point even said to each other, "don't worry, we're speaking japanese, they can't understand." So I totally felt like I was eavesdropping. I only understood about half of what they said, but nevertheless, it was encouraging for me.

Well there's when your Japanese studies pay off. On your way past them as you exit the subway, you say to them, "omoshiroi hanashi da yo!" and continue walking away..

[dimwit]

Anecdote: Yesterday I was on the train and a group of Japanese tourists got on the packed subway train. They were talking loud and laughing,and at one point even said to each other, "don't worry, we're speaking japanese, they can't understand." So I totally felt like I was eavesdropping. I only understood about half of what they said, but nevertheless, it was encouraging for me.

Not a hugely convincing arguement in my books. Whenever I hear the statement "don't worry, we're speaking Japanese, they can't understand" what follows usually is enought to make my skin crawl.