Anything good to say about Japan?

[FG Lurker]

I should add a bit to that too: Certainly there are a lot of beautiful western women, and many take very good care of themselves.

But there are also a lot of 150kg++ ones who feel that they should be considered beautiful none-the-less. This pulls the average down!! Also, even "not-so-attractive" Japanese women still generally do their best to look good, IMHO.

(Please excuse the weird formatting of this message if someone quotes it. The board rejected it due to a character combination and that is how I "fixed" it.)

[GomiGirl]

7. Unabashed femininity, though this applies to the guys as well

What is your definition of this feminity? I am just curious..

For me it is a combination of many of your reasons GG. I find that in general Japanese women dress better, take better care of themselves, and generally are more concerned about apperances than the women I see in Canada or the US. There is also no attitude of "Everyone should accept me just the way I am." here.

Well I think that the taking care of themselves is kinda equal - from my observations anyway. Look at the per capita spending on beauty products etc.

I do agree that the word "scruffy" comes to mind when I am in a western country - but this is really weekend and casual wear for both men and women. I was appalled by the lack of footware worn in Australia by men during summer.

But for work etc people wear suits etc. in the same proportion. So dressing better may come down to fashion which is certainly different. Women want to be taken seriously in Western countries - especially at work - so they do not want to appear weak and doll-like.

That said, I was recently at Niijima Island for Golden Week and was camping. There were some girls there who were completely innappropriate and wearing high heeled shoes and had full faces of makeup in the campsite and on the beach. That is just ridiculous!!!

Kind of a double edged sword really.

[GomiGirl]

I should add a bit to that too: Certainly there are a lot of beautiful western women, and many take very good care of themselves.

But there are also a lot of 150kg++ ones who feel that they should be considered beautiful none-the-less. This pulls the average down!! Also, even "not-so-attractive" Japanese women still generally do their best to look good, IMHO.

(Please excuse the weird formatting of this message if someone quotes it. The board rejected it due to a character combination and that is how I "fixed" it.)

150kg +++ c'mon. You are taking the extreme here. There are as many fat guys as girls in western countries. Plus I suggested ignoring the body size thing for a discussion of feminity as it is too distracting.

[FG Lurker]

7. Unabashed femininity, though this applies to the guys as well

What is your definition of this feminity? I am just curious..

For me it is a combination of many of your reasons GG. I find that in general Japanese women dress better, take better care of themselves, and generally are more concerned about apperances than the women I see in Canada or the US. There is also no attitude of "Everyone should accept me just the way I am." here.

Well I think that the taking care of themselves is kinda equal - from my observations anyway. Look at the per capita spending on beauty products etc.

I'd say that the western women who *do* take care of themselves do as good or better a job than most Japanese women. Especially in the area of physical fitness! Just that the percentage of women who don't care is much higher at home...

I do agree that the word "scruffy" comes to mind when I am in a western country - but this is really weekend and casual wear for both men and women. I was appalled by the lack of footware worn in Australia by men during summer.

Yes, I would agree that a lot of western men also don't take care of themselves.

But for work etc people wear suits etc. in the same proportion. So dressing better may come down to fashion which is certainly different. Women want to be taken seriously in Western countries - especially at work - so they do not want to appear weak and doll-like.

Yes, I agree with this too. But I think a lot of western women lose a certain amount of their feminine identity (??) by trying to emulate men and thus be "taken seriously". From a business perspective this is not necessarily a bad thing... Western women have it very hard that way -- if they look too feminine they might not be taken seriously, if they don't look feminine at all they are accused of trying to look like men... Lose-lose.

That said, I was recently at Niijima Island for Golden Week and was camping. There were some girls there who were completely inappropriate and wearing high heeled shoes and had full faces of makeup in the campsite and on the beach. That is just ridiculous!!!

Yes!! I have seen some totally inappropriate stuff like that too.

Kind of a double edged sword really.

Most definitely.

[FG Lurker]

150kg +++ c'mon. You are taking the extreme here. There are as many fat guys as girls in western countries. Plus I suggested ignoring the body size thing for a discussion of feminity as it is too distracting.

Even 90 to 100kg on a 5'5" frame is extreme enough, and this is not uncommon.

I know you suggested ignoring body size, but you have to admit it has a big effect on things. I appreciate that an extremely overweight woman takes care of herself, but they're still not attractive or feminine to many guys.

And you're right about the guys -- it is just as disgusting.

[GomiGirl]

But for work etc people wear suits etc. in the same proportion. So dressing better may come down to fashion which is certainly different. Women want to be taken seriously in Western countries - especially at work - so they do not want to appear weak and doll-like.

Yes, I agree with this too. But I think a lot of western women lose a certain amount of their feminine identity (??) by trying to emulate men and thus be "taken seriously". From a business perspective this is not necessarily a bad thing... Western women have it very hard that way -- if they look too feminine they might not be taken seriously, if they don't look feminine at all they are accused of trying to look like men... Lose-lose.

I guess this is kind of my point. I spend a huge amount of time and money on personal grooming and hygiene (just ask my friends) and I wear skirts and dresses more than pants or jeans but I wouldn't think that these would be defined as uber-feminine in the traditional sense. At the same time I would say that I was very feminine...

Western chicks like me have different fashion tastes to our Japanese sisters. All the criticisms of "not being feminine enough" sort of wash over us as we have adopted a new style that suits our needs at work and also personal tastes.

What you may call feminine, I would probably call prissy but the tastes of guys still fall into the traditional categories. But then, the clothes I think look good on guys you may not feel comfortable in. So it works both ways.

Just look at the different tastes that men and women have in the category of sexy underwear.....

I don't really have a solution or an argument to make.. I was just musing on the differences in tastes and thinking that it is an interesting subject of discussion.

[Buraku]

During my last trip to Amsterdamm and Dublin I saw far more Dutch and Irish women that looked the example on the right than the example on the left.

oh yes the dimwit fetish

[FG Lurker]

But for work etc people wear suits etc. in the same proportion. So dressing better may come down to fashion which is certainly different. Women want to be taken seriously in Western countries - especially at work - so they do not want to appear weak and doll-like.

Yes, I agree with this too. But I think a lot of western women lose a certain amount of their feminine identity (??) by trying to emulate men and thus be "taken seriously". From a business perspective this is not necessarily a bad thing... Western women have it very hard that way -- if they look too feminine they might not be taken seriously, if they don't look feminine at all they are accused of trying to look like men... Lose-lose.

I guess this is kind of my point. I spend a huge amount of time and money on personal grooming and hygiene (just ask my friends) and I wear skirts and dresses more than pants or jeans but I wouldn't think that these would be defined as uber-feminine in the traditional sense. At the same time I would say that I was very feminine...

Hmm, I am not sure how to express what I want to say. Certainly there are many beautiful western women though.

Western chicks like me have different fashion tastes to our Japanese sisters. All the criticisms of "not being feminine enough" sort of wash over us as we have adopted a new style that suits our needs at work and also personal tastes.

I find that a lot of western women in Japan look very feminine. It's when I go home that I have problems...

What you may call feminine, I would probably call prissy but the tastes of guys still fall into the traditional categories.

I think people's tastes are affected by their surroundings... When I first came to Japan I had zero interest in Asian women at all... Absolutely none. Things are different now though. ]But then, the clothes I think look good on guys you may not feel comfortable in. So it works both ways.[/quote]
Indeed.

Just look at the different tastes that men and women have in the category of sexy underwear.....

Personally I prefer "none". But that's a whole different topic.

I don't really have a solution or an argument to make.. I was just musing on the differences in tastes and thinking that it is an interesting subject of discussion.

I agree here too. I don't think that everyone should become the same, either. Variety makes things interesting.

[GomiGirl]

Hmm, I am not sure how to express what I want to say. Certainly there are many beautiful western women though.

I was not meaning outward beauty as this is a different topic and has been covered before.. but was just curious to know what defines femininity to different people.

[FG Lurker]

Hmm, I am not sure how to express what I want to say. Certainly there are many beautiful western women though.

I was not meaning outward beauty as this is a different topic and has been covered before.. but was just curious to know what defines femininity to different people.

I think the two are linked, to a certain extent anyway. In my (likely shitty) opinion it would be hard to be feminine while looking like Attila The Hun. Dunno, maybe I haven't given this enough thought.

[Socratesabroad]

7. Unabashed femininity, though this applies to the guys as well

What is your definition of this feminity? I am just curious..

In all fairness, if we're going to ignore 'the body size thing' for a discussion of feminity then we should also eliminate attitude

d) Attitude
(eg seen and not heard, foregoing any personal career expectations in favour of wifedom, motherhood etc)

After all we're talking about femininity, not feminism.

Japanese women display more femininity than their Western counterparts in all three points:
a) Overall Aesthetic
b) Personal grooming/hygiene
c) Fashion

In terms of grooming, Japanese women seem to care more about looking good and are less likely to leave the house as-is. While Japanese fashion may seem "pretty in pink," it highlights the femininity of the wearer, leaving no question as to the sex of the individual. And overall, I find this appealing as a guy (moreover as a single guy).

'Scruffy' aptly describes the fashion style of many Western women when they're not dressing to impress though many Japanese women dress well regardless of the occasion. Of course, this attention to appearance gets labeled 'prissy' by some.

The work environment also differs - contrast the business suit many Western women wear with the more feminine uniform worn at many Japanese companies. Another example would be the uniform of a police officer - female cops in the States wear basically the same uniform as men while female cops in Japan wear sensible heels and a skirt. As a straight man, which am I more likely to be attracted to? Obviously the style highlighting sexual differences, not uniformity.

As a man in the modern age, I'm torn. While I want to champion equal treatment and opportunity for women, I'm also a stone-age throwback because I like for women to look like women, i.e. not the same as men.

And as a man I relish those visual cues to sexuality - there's a reason why guys check out porn
It is a fact that the male brain is particularly responsive to and stimulated by visual imagery. Males frequently use visual images as an aid to masturbation.
on their computers
[I]t seems men and women use the Internet in different ways. Delmonico says, "for the most part, men tend to focus on the pornographic exchange and women tend to focus on wanting that relationship exchange." In other words, log onto a chatroom and you may be surrounded by women. Log onto a site with explicit images, and your co-surfers are likely to be predominantly male.

[cstaylor]

I was not meaning outward beauty as this is a different topic and has been covered before.. but was just curious to know what defines femininity to different people.

Long hair, tan legs, freckles.

[FG Lurker]

As a man in the modern age, I'm torn. While I want to champion equal treatment and opportunity for women, I'm also a stone-age throwback because I like for women to look like women, i.e. not the same as men.

Exactly!! This is one of the things I wanted to say but couldn't get out.

[GomiGirl]

As a man in the modern age, I'm torn. While I want to champion equal treatment and opportunity for women, I'm also a stone-age throwback because I like for women to look like women, i.e. not the same as men.

Exactly!! This is one of the things I wanted to say but couldn't get out.

All of this is great... you have answered my questions honestly and this is what I was hoping for. I really am interested in hearing what you thought just to compare it with my own opinions.

[GomiGirl]

In all fairness, if we're going to ignore 'the body size thing' for a discussion of feminity then we should also eliminate attitude

d) Attitude
(eg seen and not heard, foregoing any personal career expectations in favour of wifedom, motherhood etc)

After all we're talking about femininity, not feminism.

Fair comment... but is demeanour related to this discussion?

Japanese women display more femininity than their Western counterparts in all three points:
a) Overall Aesthetic
b) Personal grooming/hygiene
c) Fashion

But what did you think about my comment that I would suggest that the grooming/hygiene is about the same.. ie time/money spent on grooming, haircare, beauty regime and general cleanliness? But perhaps it is a fashion of say nails and clothes that give an overall appearance of what you define as feminine?

I think that diamontes on fingernails makes a girl look a bit frivolous but a french manicure shows elegance and as much care about personal grooming as the diamontes and nail art.

All of this discussion has prompted me to look at people on the trains etc to see what was the same/different to what I would consider good grooming.

I don't have a problem with prissy or pretty in pink fashion.. just that it is not my style nor that of many of my girlfriends but at the same time, I wouldn't say we were not feminine.

People would look at me funny if I dressed prissily.

So might I suggest that fashion is high on the agenda if hygiene and attitude are not factors?

[cstaylor]

I think that diamontes on fingernails makes a girl look a bit frivolous but a french manicure shows elegance and as much care about personal grooming as the diamontes and nail art.

I think it looks horrible. Simple elegance is best.

[Socratesabroad]

Fair comment... but is demeanour related to this discussion?

Not particularly, but it can be if you'd like. I'm curious about your observations of Japanese womanhood - does it only conjure up images of deference to men, being seen and not heard, foregoing career expectations, etc.?

I think you might be selling Japanese women short - the high level of sexual activity among Japanese women shows they're far from being passive: in that sense, they're quite aware and in control of their sexuality.

But what did you think about my comment that I would suggest that the grooming/hygiene is about the same.. ie time/money spent on grooming, haircare, beauty regime and general cleanliness?

At first glance, Western women do spend a decent amount of time/money on grooming, haircare, beauty, general cleanliness etc. when they're planning to make an impression on others. The problem lies in that they don't do those things as a matter of general habit. Japanese women, however, tend to dress well even for routine outings (like a camping trip). The easiest example would be a trip to the grocery store on a lazy Sunday. The Western woman would probably be content to put on some sweats, put her hair in a band, and head to the supermarket. Her Japanese counterpart is more likely to 'dress up' - complete with makeup and hairdo - for even such a non-event as grocery shopping.

I don't have a problem with prissy or pretty in pink fashion.. just that it is not my style nor that of many of my girlfriends but at the same time, I wouldn't say we were not feminine.

I think you've hit on a major point about deciding what - or who - is feminine. While you and your friends may consider yourselves quite feminine, you seem to have overlooked (perhaps consciously) part of the equation: what do men think?

An easy example would be dress. While women in the West want to cloak the female form - the very point of loose-fitting and asexual clothing - Japanese women highlight it. And as a straight guy I'm much more inclined to go for the highlights.

[Samurai_Jerk]

I've always been underimpressed with the way Japanese women groom themselves. Yes, the spend a lot of time and money on it but they don't really do a good job upon close inspection. Shaving and trimming will never beat waxing and plucking. Especially when it comes to eyebrows. You can often see stubble or shadow around their eyebrows. I also don't think that many of them do a good job with their make up or hair. Poor coloring in both cases and I've never seen so many women with heads full of what looks like dead grass. I don't think they do such a good job with manicures and pedicures either.

I guess on average they might be better groomed than American women but I don't think that you get as many girls that display the really clean, waxed, perfectly manicured look that you see in the US. There is a certain area of hygene that they definitely have Western women beat in though. I don't know if it's because of diet or bathing habits, but I have yet to come across a J girl that is funky down there.

I guess I'm more into a classy, sexy look and I don't think Japanese girls in general pull that off. I do think you see it more in Korean, (upper class) Chinese, and certain typesof American girls. Japanese girls are definitely very girlie and cute, but I don't think they generally exude the kind of sexual feminity that women in other countries do.

[FG Lurker]

I've always been underimpressed with the way Japanese women groom themselves. Yes, the spend a lot of time and money on it but they don't really do a good job upon close inspection. Shaving and trimming will never beat waxing and plucking. Especially when it comes to eyebrows. You can often see stubble or shadow around their eyebrows. I also don't think that many of them do a good job with their make up or hair. Poor coloring in both cases and I've never seen so many women with heads full of what looks like dead grass. I don't think they do such a good job with manicures and pedicures either.

I'd say it's a bit worrying that you are so concerned and knowledgeable in this area SJ!

[soulkraka]

Yes, I agree with this too. But I think a lot of western women lose a certain amount of their feminine identity (??) by trying to emulate men and thus be "taken seriously". From a business perspective this is not necessarily a bad thing... Western women have it very hard that way -- if they look too feminine they might not be taken seriously, if they don't look feminine at all they are accused of trying to look like men... Lose-lose.

I agree 100%. Actually, I agree with most of what youve said the last 2 pages, believe it or not

This is a very touchy subject and while it seems to be cool on here I recently got flamed to hell and back when I brought this up on another board (non japan related, myspace)

[FG Lurker]

Yes, I agree with this too. But I think a lot of western women lose a certain amount of their feminine identity (??) by trying to emulate men and thus be "taken seriously". From a business perspective this is not necessarily a bad thing... Western women have it very hard that way -- if they look too feminine they might not be taken seriously, if they don't look feminine at all they are accused of trying to look like men... Lose-lose.

I agree 100%. Actually, I agree with most of what youve said the last 2 pages, believe it or not

Glad we can find a bit of common ground. I'm not always an asshole. ]This is a very touchy subject and while it seems to be cool on here I recently got flamed to hell and back when I brought this up on another board (non japan related, myspace)[/quote]
Yep, it's pretty hard to talk about this topic without offending at least one chunk of the population.

Riding to work this morning I was thinking about this a bit more. Socratesabroad covers it very well with "The easiest example would be a trip to the grocery store on a lazy Sunday. The Western woman would probably be content to put on some sweats, put her hair in a band, and head to the supermarket. Her Japanese counterpart is more likely to 'dress up' - complete with makeup and hairdo - for even such a non-event as grocery shopping." Many Japanese women I know wouldn't be caught dead outside without makeup, and many western women view this as extreme or prissy. I don't think that makes the Japanese woman "better" as a person, but I know which one is more likely to attract (admiring) looks from the male population.

Maybe for Japanese women putting on makeup/doing hair is an end unto itself, but for Western women it is something you do when you "have to" -- before work or before going out with friends etc.? Generalizing wildly of course.

[NeoNecroNomiCron]

Japan has the softest blankets in the world.

You know the furry ones that you give to your drunken friends when they come over.

I think that diamontes on fingernails makes a girl look a bit frivolous but a french manicure shows elegance and as much care about personal grooming as the diamontes and nail art.

French manicures are sick, it looks like a glob of white dirt under nails. Personaly I dont even like long nails, just 5mm over the edge is fine.

[Samurai_Jerk]

I've always been underimpressed with the way Japanese women groom themselves. Yes, the spend a lot of time and money on it but they don't really do a good job upon close inspection. Shaving and trimming will never beat waxing and plucking. Especially when it comes to eyebrows. You can often see stubble or shadow around their eyebrows. I also don't think that many of them do a good job with their make up or hair. Poor coloring in both cases and I've never seen so many women with heads full of what looks like dead grass. I don't think they do such a good job with manicures and pedicures either.

I'd say it's a bit worrying that you are so concerned and knowledgeable in this area SJ!

Hey man. I'm all about the details.

[FG Lurker]

I've always been underimpressed with the way Japanese women groom themselves. Yes, the spend a lot of time and money on it but they don't really do a good job upon close inspection. Shaving and trimming will never beat waxing and plucking. Especially when it comes to eyebrows. You can often see stubble or shadow around their eyebrows. I also don't think that many of them do a good job with their make up or hair. Poor coloring in both cases and I've never seen so many women with heads full of what looks like dead grass. I don't think they do such a good job with manicures and pedicures either.

I'd say it's a bit worrying that you are so concerned and knowledgeable in this area SJ!

Hey man. I'm all about the details.

Yeah, me too...When it comes to cars, boats, computers, stereos, bikes... Not so much in the female hygiene & beauty department though.

[Pencilslave]

7. Unabashed femininity, though this applies to the guys as well

What is your definition of this feminity? I am just curious..

While I do like the stereotypical trappings of feminity such as long hair, makeup, blouses, skirts, stockings, high heels, painted fingernails,lingerie etc,it's not neccessary for me to consider a woman feminine.
I've seen a bald girl at a club once wearing a tank top and jeans and she was one of the cutest girls I'd ever seen.

From the physical standpoint , I consider a woman feminine if it's not difficult to tell she is a woman. Small hands, smalll shoulders, broader hips, softer skin,larger eyes.. In other words, she doesn't look like a man. Sorry if that's a poor definition.

I was going to say that what I would consider a feminine personality, would be , compassionate, kind, and nurturing, but men as well as women,
are capable of these traits.

Anime and manga haters I apologize in advance for the reference I'm going to use,stop reading if you want, but here goes:



A show that demonstrates the point I just mentioned is: "I My Me Strawberry Eggs". It concerns a guy named Hibiki Amawa who's fresh out of college with a Physical Ed certificate and is anxious to start working as a Gym teacher.

He's had no luck so far and his landlady is going to throw him out if he doesn't get a job by the end of the the day. He goes to apply at the private school up the road from his boarding house, Seito Sannamiya Jr High school . He's rejected by the female principal who tells him that they refuse to hire men because men are too stupid and rough to properly teach and nurture their students. Hibiki is not surprisingly pissed.

[/i]Men can love just as deeply as women! We have loving hearts too you know![i]

He goes back to the boarding house and the landlady tells him since the current principal was hired ten years ago, no male teacher has been hired.
(There are only ten male students at the school as well, they're phasing out accepting boys.) Hibiki is bound and determined to show the principal wrong. The landlady is impressed by his dedication and offers to help him.
She dresses him as a woman(It doesn't hurt that Hibiki has long hair and a somewhat girlish face) and shows him how to apply makeup, walk etc.
To hide his voice, she gives him a voice changer disguised as a choker.

"She" goes back to the school goes back again to apply for the gym teacher position. Hibiki is given the task of conducting a mock class in which she has to get the clumsiest girl in school, little Fuuko Kuzuhara to run a 50 yard dash without falling.

What complicates things is that the gym uniform is a t-shirt and ankle length skirt. According to the principal, it's to keep from provoking "stupid males'. Poor Fuuko tries her hardest several times, only to be tripped up and fall. Hibiki goes to her and whispers something in her ear. Fuuko goes back to the starting line and
bunches up her skirt to where they're like shorts. Hibiki signals her and Fuuko starts running toward her. She begins to trip near the finish line and Hibiki shouts for her to jump from there, Hibiki catches her as she clears the line and they fall back together , Hibiki cushioning Fuuko. Hibiki's passed the test.

Men can be kind and loving, women can be strong and resilient.

Sorry for the long digression.

[Samurai_Jerk]

I've always been underimpressed with the way Japanese women groom themselves. Yes, the spend a lot of time and money on it but they don't really do a good job upon close inspection. Shaving and trimming will never beat waxing and plucking. Especially when it comes to eyebrows. You can often see stubble or shadow around their eyebrows. I also don't think that many of them do a good job with their make up or hair. Poor coloring in both cases and I've never seen so many women with heads full of what looks like dead grass. I don't think they do such a good job with manicures and pedicures either.

I'd say it's a bit worrying that you are so concerned and knowledgeable in this area SJ!

Hey man. I'm all about the details.

Yeah, me too...When it comes to cars, boats, computers, stereos, bikes... Not so much in the female hygiene & beauty department though. ]

I've never had much interest in a lot of the stuff your talking about. I think it comes from growing up in NYC. As teenagers we never got the chance to get into cars, bikes, boats, etc. like a lot of guys in the 'burbs or the country do.

[ichigo partygirl]

i think japanese women are outwardly more feminine in their everyday apperance. I think they do dress alot more girly than western women generally do. But i do think they often do a bad job of things like hair removal and hair colouring. They also often take the girly feminine thing too far and end up looking like they are 12( which im sure is a turn on to alot of males) or looking so out of place on outdoor sort of trips and the like

For myself it depends on my mood - i am always feminie but my clothing may not always be so. For example today i had black pants, big knee high boots and a pink jacket. It may not be girly and pretty - but it is stylish and pratical for the weather.

I think if a girl looks after her apperance and feels like a girl, it will be obvious that she is feminine.

[cstaylor]

end up looking like they are 12( which im sure is a turn on to alot of males)

Not this male.

[Samurai_Jerk]

i think japanese women are outwardly more feminine in their everyday apperance. I think they do dress alot more girly than western women generally do. But i do think they often do a bad job of things like hair removal and hair colouring.

That was my point. I'm probably one of the few guys who notice shit like that though. I guess I'm just half a fag.

One more thing that drives me NUTS. Open-toed shoes with stockings. That looks so crappy.

[cstaylor]

One more thing that drives me NUTS. Open-toed shoes with stockings. That looks so crappy.

Unless it's part of a uniform, then they have no choice AFAIK. My fashion-police peeve is high-heels and jeans (commonly seen on HK and Chinese women than Japanese).