Trouble pronouncing long Japanese words.

[FG Lurker]

[ketchupkatsu]

[Adhesive]

Like I mentioned before, my argument is moot due to the simple fact that kana should be learned immediately regardless, BUT, for other reasons than what you guys are stating.

I stand by my point that romaji in itself DOES NOT corrupt speech. It is not difficult to view roman characters in a different light depending on the language they are being applied to, in fact, bilingual people have been doing this easily for hundreds of years when switching from English to French, German, or Spanish. In each language, the roman alphabet is interpreted in different ways, but most people have no problem understanding that the English "J" is different from the Spanish "J".

I also believe there is a valid reason why most Japanese instruction begins with romaji. It allows the learner to get a head start on understanding things like syntax and grammar before memorizing the kana.

In all honesty, I think the argument that romaji must be abandoned to correctly pronounce Japanese is like saying all hiragana must be abandoned if it has a kanji equivalent. They are ALL mere symbols, and can all mean the same thing depending on context, but which is easier to learn, the 26 character alphabet you were raised with, the 46 hiragana and katakana, or the thousands of Chinese characters?

[Socratesabroad]

[Adhesive]

I stand by my point that romaji in itself DOES NOT corrupt speech.

And I've come to agree with you. Making the major assumption that the Western language learner can shed any tendency to pronounce certain letters a certain way, then yes, he should be able to pronounce the word correctly even using romaji.

I don't see how this is a MAJOR assumption. Millions of bilingual speakers shed their tendency to pronounce letters a particular way when using a second language. I've already given examples using English and Spanish. If so many westerners already do this now, what would make it any harder for westerners wishing to speak Japanese?

I'll say it again; learn kana! BUT, there is absolutely NO harm in using romaji, except for, perhaps, the scorn of elitist.

[FG Lurker]

I stand by my point that romaji in itself DOES NOT corrupt speech.

And I've come to agree with you. Making the major assumption that the Western language learner can shed any tendency to pronounce certain letters a certain way, then yes, he should be able to pronounce the word correctly even using romaji.

I don't see how this is a MAJOR assumption. Millions of bilingual speakers shed their tendency to pronounce letters a particular way when using a second language. I've already given examples using English and Spanish. If so many westerners already do this now, what would make it any harder for westerners wishing to speak Japanese?

Spanish uses roman letters. As does German, Italian, French, Dutch...I think you see what I mean. Roman letters are used when studying these languages because roman letters are what these languages use.

[quote="Adhesive"]I'll say it again]
I point you back to a previous message of mine that you have not yet answered: http://www.fuckedgaijin.com/forums/showthread.php?p=94814#post94814 To summarize it though, blocking out any and all habits from other languages the learner knows is likely going to be as hard or harder than learning kana. Since the learner is going to have to learn kana in the end anyway, why not just do it and get it over with? It's double the work otherwise, and I completely fail to see how making more work for yourself without any additional benefit is a productive thing to do.

Even beyond all of this, romaji could only possibly be considered even slightly helpful for speakers of English. If you speak any other language then you not only have to learn the correct way to pronounce Japanese, but you then need to learn the closest way to write that in English!

[Socratesabroad]

Millions of bilingual speakers shed their tendency to pronounce letters a particular way when using a second language. I've already given examples using English and Spanish.

Roma Aeterna!
[Years of studying Latin and this is the first time I get to use it]

Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese, and Catalan are all Romance languages, and thus (relatively) direct descendants of Latin...and the Latin alphabet. English, German, and Dutch all borrowed and modified the Latin alphabet. Even the Cyrillic alphabet (Russian and Slavic lang.) includes Latin letters (along with some Greek). So the point is that when you're studying English and Spanish the Latin alphabet is roughly the same although letters have been added, pronunciations in certain words and instances differ, etc. FGL makes the same point a little easier to understand:

Roman letters are used when studying these languages because roman letters are what these languages use.

But Japanese has no such Latin alphabet roots. Why try to add them?


[quote="Adhesive"]
I'll say it again]

The harm is twofold. First is purposefully complicating an already complex task. Japanese is hard enough for Westerners to learn, but adding an unnecessary step (and romaji isn't necessary to learn Japanese, as I've pointed out) seems cruel. Second is that romaji is not an acceptable default while hiragana is. Meaning, on a test (math, sci, soc. stud, whatever) if a student were to forget a difficult kanji he can still write the hiragana. While ultimately depending on the teacher/test subj., chances are that the student will get credit for the answer in hiragana. The student is unlikely to receive any credit whatsoever for an answer in romaji.

My loathing of romaji isn't scorn of an elitist, it's practical advice from a realist.

[Pencilslave]

[FG Lurker]

[omae mona]

[Socratesabroad]